Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
> To be best in class you have to do better than to be (in it's > own words) "Basically it's a perky imitation of Apple's OSX > look". That's just catch up, not moving forward. I didn't say it was better; I just responded to your post :- "I've never seen a Linux desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms." Being a fairly close replica, it does indeed compare with OSX - and favourably at that. No-one said anything about beating it :-) Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 01:26:50PM +0100, Stephen Pelc wrote: > This discussion about bashing Microsoft misses the point as I > see it. What movement there is away from Windows appears to be > towards Apple and OSX. From a user's point of view OSX is both > easy to use and beautiful. Speaking entirely personally, I find the desktop on my MacBook (a work machine) utterly frustrating. There are so many things I want to do that are difficult, non-obvious, or Just Plain Impossible that I can last about half a day trying to do work on it before I just want to throw the whole machine out of a window. I'm sure many other people have utterly different views on the subject, and I'm not saying that one size fits all, but for me, my experience of OS X has been poor. I won't be buying an Apple machine in the future. Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: h...@... carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- Is a diversity twice as good as a university? --- signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
John said: > If you lock down Linux to a limited amount of packages and charge ?1000 > to ?2000 a box you will very quickly match OSX for looks and usability. > But Linux isn't locked down, you are free to choose what the GUI looks > like and what distro/packages you install. The EEE PC has shown how easy > it is to get Linux usable for the masses and at ?250. Imagine what it > would be like at ?2000! My Mac Mini was £499, and I think the low end one is £399. I've seen net prices down around the £250 mark this year. Sure it's not the hot Apple product of the moment, but it "just works" and the build quality is fantastic. And yes, we have an eeePC as well - after a week we replaced the Xandros distro with the Ubuntu Eee version. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, step...@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Vic said: > > I've never seen a Linux > > desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms. > > Then you haven't seen baghira. > > http://baghira.sourceforge.net/screenies.php To be best in class you have to do better than to be (in it's own words) "Basically it's a perky imitation of Apple's OSX look". That's just catch up, not moving forward. "Imitation is the sicerest form of flattery" - Oscar Wilde. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, step...@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
>> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:26:50 +0100 >> "Stephen Pelc" wrote: >> I've never seen a Linux >> desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms. > > Then you haven't seen baghira. > > http://baghira.sourceforge.net/screenies.php > > Vic. > > If you lock down Linux to a limited amount of packages and charge £1000 to £2000 a box you will very quickly match OSX for looks and usability. But Linux isn't locked down, you are free to choose what the GUI looks like and what distro/packages you install. The EEE PC has shown how easy it is to get Linux usable for the masses and at £250. Imagine what it would be like at £2000! OSX is a great OS and GUI but it is expensive and limited compared to Linux and its vast number of applications. John. -- -- Discover Linux - Open Source Solutions to Business and Schools http://discoverlinux.co.uk -- -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
> I've never seen a Linux > desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms. Then you haven't seen baghira. http://baghira.sourceforge.net/screenies.php Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:26:50 +0100 "Stephen Pelc" wrote: > IMHO, it's far more productive to look at best-in-class examples > than to knock the worst examples. I've never seen a Linux > desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms. beauty is in the eye of the beholder I just googled for some images of OSX desktops (since I have never seen one in real life) and good looking it may be but it has a thingy at top and bottom of screen and icons all over I don't like any of these things and much prefer my almost icon free, no 'thingies' windowmaker desktop, though I have added a 'Lord of the Swirls' background image to jazz it up -- John Lewis using Debian Sid with windowmaker for a nicer desktop -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/10 Stephen Davies : > As far a Linux goes, these days the only issues I see with Hardware > Compatability is Wireless. +1 I haven't played with many hardwares but personally I faced almost hell thanks to Ralink which produces rt2860 wireless which unfortunately ended up in my EEE 901 . I agree that the wireless works perfect in 2.6.26 on debian and definitely would would work on Ubuntu,mandriva etc . In my case I am using 2.6.30 and the driver wouldn't work . This is actually a reported bug but it kind of works with 30 kernel with some minor hacks and a non free driver :( http://wiki.debian.org/rt2860sta#issues I just wish/dream that some one from intel/ralink is watching that page or this mail :) Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
john wrote: > Hi All > > I could not resist the itch to say something. > > More than once the use of Microsoft software has save my bacon. > > I have the greatest respect for the windows system provided it has > no contact with the Internet. I have seen well [...] As you may be aware, one reason to use a foss alternative to Windows is not in any way a technical nor a functional reason. There are strong social, economic and even political (small p I think) reasons, mostly associated with freedom - of choice and of information. The freedoms are arguably worth something. Many people have engaged in countless conflicts over the ages in the name of their freedom in different forms. The convenient option or even the best technical or functional option, may not always offer the best long term option in light of the consequences. An Engineering viewpoint seeks to eliminate factors other than technical ones. Freedom is not an engineering factor. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Quote from john Eayrs I can load a new bit of hardware and drivers on windows with no problem. A piece of hard ware for linux well thats a search on the Internet to find out if its is compatible and how to get it to install. End quote Well, on the other hand, I don't have to mess about for hours with Linux when I connect up a Canon EIDE60 scanner and a Nikon Coolscan 4000 at the same time (both USB drives) On Windows, the Canon driver assumes that you are never doing to use any other device on that copy of Windows. Without deleting the multitude of files by hand you ain't going to get the Nikon (or any other Scanner for that matter to work). Windows + Canon Scanner software === Defective by Design. Then there is printing... The Epson 2100 driver for Windows won't let me configure a custom paper size for a 5ftx8in panorama despite the paper being one of those produced by Epson themselves.. Move the file to Linux, connect up the printer and a few screens leater & CUPS is configures and I was able to print it without problem. I could go on but I think you get the point. As far a Linux goes, these days the only issues I see with Hardware Compatability is Wireless. We all know bout Broadcom but these days, if you look in 'dmesg' you see the link needed to get the Firmware so that is a less on an issue. Now the only crap driver I have to deal with is for a Realtek Wireless chip on my MSI Wind but that is solvable. Obviously, your experience might well be different but IMHO, hardware detection & support in Linux is FAR FAR better than for Windows especially with the lack of support for many 4 yr old devices in Vista & Windows 7. Stephen D -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
John said > More than once the use of Microsoft software has save my bacon. This discussion about bashing Microsoft misses the point as I see it. What movement there is away from Windows appears to be towards Apple and OSX. From a user's point of view OSX is both easy to use and beautiful. English is the current lingua franca of the world. It is neither easy to use nor beautiful on most occasions. It just is the common denominator. Currently, Windows has that place on the desktop. It may well be different some time in the future. IMHO, it's far more productive to look at best-in-class examples than to knock the worst examples. I've never seen a Linux desktop to compare with OSX in any of its forms. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, step...@mpeforth.com MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
>> I can load a new bit of hardware and drivers on windows with no problem. > Yep, So can I. Example1 My graphics tablet required two windows reboots to install the drivers! On three different linux live distros and my Mandy desktop I simply plugged it in and it worked in parrallel with the mouse. I had the same issue with my trackballs and Nb utton mice. Windows was a multple reboot - linux was just plug and go! Example2 Regarding windows just working we had a problem with SQLSvr. It was supposed to be raid compatible however this is only for a limited number of raid cards - you buy a specific high end (>400UKP) card and you end up with a corrupt database and/or random gibberish results. Support finally admitted that the card was not SSsvr certified - and that unless the NTFS "driver chain" is "fully compliant" (through to the hardware drivers) and disks! then SSvr "could have issues". The only other database I know of that binds so hard to the underlying filesystem drivers is Oracle when running in raw disk mode... So, SSvr binds to low level NTFS API's not accessible to the competition and while Sybase,Postgres,Oracle et.al have no probs with the card SSvr quietly, invisibly trashes your data! Jacqui -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
> I have the greatest respect for the windows system provided it has no > contact > with the Internet. I have seen well created windows systems boot in 20 > seconds flat which is faster than any linux system I have seen. Pick your hardware. I can build a Linux system on it that will boot faster than Windows. Don't confuse the time before a desktop appears with the time to boot; Windows is notorious for bringing up a GUI before anything is actually functional. Add to that the fact that most Linux systems are running far more services than the average Windows box; start piling on the apps and Windows boot times go ballistic. It's not uncommon to see reboot times of >30 *minutes* on Exchange servers... > I can load a new bit of hardware and drivers on windows with no problem. Yep, So can I. > A > piece of hard ware for linux well thats a search on the Internet to find > out if its is compatible and how to get it to install. Hardware compatability is only a problem because some hardware vendors are deliberately obstructive in terms of getting their kit to work with Free Software. The fact that they go out of their way to prevent sales to FOSS users implies that they are being leant on. > I can upgrade and install software on Linux. But I have no real idea what > I am doing. I don't care, because if the install or upgrade works I am > happy. That is just your lack of familiarity. If you knew more, you would be happily installing whilst knowing *exactly* what you are doing. > Doing the same in Windows I knew where everything went. And that just isn't true. Do a large installation in Windows - say, Office or somesuch. Do you know every key change in the registry? Can you find every single change to your filesystem? On my system, I can determine every file change and every installation scriptlet *before* I install something. > I have OCR programs in windows which work fantastically. An OCR program > in Linux has just wasted my time. Conversely, many people get on fine with such apps. Do not confuse "I don't know how to ..." with "Linux can't ..." > I have used disk backups and disk partitioning in windows and they have > worked very well and I have lost no work. I have used disk partitioning apps in Windows that have trashed the entire disk. I have *never* had a problem in Linux - even when I decided to try stuff that required me to build my own tools. > I have used those in the Linux system > and have had my hard disk over written when it should not have. (More > a case of > using windows logic on a linux program which was not a good > idea). You made a mistake. That happens when you're learning. But you know what they say about the workman who blames his tools. > I have free video editor programs in Windows which work very well. A > video editor in Linux often leaves me with a bit of swearing. I've used video editors in both Windows and Linux. I found them all to work acceptably. But the Windows program cost me a *lot* more money. > We really need to use an engineering approach to this. Use each operating > system the best way possible. Use the strengths of each operating system > and make allowances for the weaknesses. The first part of any such "engineering approach" would be an objective assessment of what can be done - not just which OS you are more familiar with. Your argument so far boils down to "I don't understand Linux, so Windows must be better". That isn't persuasive. > Setting up to watch videos in windows took me no more than a minute. Setting up my Linux system to watch videos took me a very small amount of time. I don't know how much, because it all happened at install time when I was doing a bazillion other things at the same time. > Crafting mplayer to do what I want took me a lot more than five minutes > and then I had to hunt down information to get the subtitles to work. Subtitles work just fine on my mplayer installation. What did I do to get them to work? Nothing at all. I just don't mess with things that don't need messing with. Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hi All I could not resist the itch to say something. More than once the use of Microsoft software has save my bacon. I have the greatest respect for the windows system provided it has no contact with the Internet. I have seen well created windows systems boot in 20 seconds flat which is faster than any linux system I have seen. I can load a new bit of hardware and drivers on windows with no problem. A piece of hard ware for linux well thats a search on the Internet to find out if its is compatible and how to get it to install. My everyday operating system is linux. This is simply because I do not have to worry about viruses, trojans, ad-aware, root kits etc. I can upgrade and install software on Linux. But I have no real idea what I am doing. I don't care, because if the install or upgrade works I am happy. Doing the same in Windows I knew where everything went. I have OCR programs in windows which work fantastically. An OCR program in Linux has just wasted my time. I have used disk backups and disk partitioning in windows and they have worked very well and I have lost no work. I have used those in the Linux system and have had my hard disk over written when it should not have. (More a case of using windows logic on a linux program which was not a good idea). I have free video editor programs in Windows which work very well. A video editor in Linux often leaves me with a bit of swearing. We really need to use an engineering approach to this. Use each operating system the best way possible. Use the strengths of each operating system and make allowances for the weaknesses. Setting up to watch videos in windows took me no more than a minute. Crafting mplayer to do what I want took me a lot more than five minutes and then I had to hunt down information to get the subtitles to work. Why do I bother to use linux. It is more stable and less temperamental. I can do more on it. I don't worry about the latest sneaky bot or virus or trojan which means I can be more productive. It works well on more desktops than windows does. Now if only there can be a Floss equivalent to word perfect or Coral Draw. John Eayrs On Saturday 08 August 2009 10:27:19 Andy Smith wrote: > Hi Alan, > > On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 09:21:36AM +0100, alan c wrote: > > Andy Smith wrote: > > > Linus Torvalds recently had something to say about Microsoft > > > bashing: > > > > > > http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7439/1.html > > > "I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same > > > time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe > > > in open development, and that very much involves not just > > > making the source open, but also not shutting other people > > > and companies out. > > > > > > There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but > > > > how many revolutions have there been, driven by *non* extremists? > > Making and distributing a FOSS operating system that works better > than its proprietary rivals is an extreme enough goal for me to > support. The idea that this isn't particularly extreme today is > just a testament to how successful it has been so far - the concept > used to be laughable. There is still a long way to go. > > I don't feel the need to take it to the next level by demonising > Microsoft or any other company, and I would question the value of > doing so. > > Cheers, > Andy -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hi Alan, On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 09:21:36AM +0100, alan c wrote: > Andy Smith wrote: > > > > Linus Torvalds recently had something to say about Microsoft > > bashing: > > > > http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7439/1.html > > "I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same > > time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe > > in open development, and that very much involves not just > > making the source open, but also not shutting other people > > and companies out. > > > > There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but > > how many revolutions have there been, driven by *non* extremists? Making and distributing a FOSS operating system that works better than its proprietary rivals is an extreme enough goal for me to support. The idea that this isn't particularly extreme today is just a testament to how successful it has been so far - the concept used to be laughable. There is still a long way to go. I don't feel the need to take it to the next level by demonising Microsoft or any other company, and I would question the value of doing so. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting You dont have to be illiterate to use the Internet, but it help's. -- Mike Bristow signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Andy Smith wrote: > > Linus Torvalds recently had something to say about Microsoft > bashing: > > http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7439/1.html > "I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same > time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe > in open development, and that very much involves not just > making the source open, but also not shutting other people > and companies out. > > There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but how many revolutions have there been, driven by *non* extremists? -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hello Pavithran, On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 08:31:57PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > 2009/8/7 Andy Smith : > > > The free software movement has a very vocal minority of people like > > yourself who are happy to say things like the first paragraph and > > then argue endlessly about it like the second one. > > So you still say that I belong to the free software movement . You self-identified as someone with so much Linux spirit that you just have to call Microsoft names. Linus Torvalds recently had something to say about Microsoft bashing: http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7439/1.html "I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out. There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but that's one major reason why I don't call what I do 'free software' any more. I don't want to be associated with the people for whom it's about exclusion and hatred." > @Microsoft Please forgive me , can't stop calling you "M$" . You have > produced great rocking software's like Windows XP . I hail thee . > > Happy ? I don't know yet if you are just trolling the list. Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/7 Andy Smith : > The free software movement has a very vocal minority of people like > yourself who are happy to say things like the first paragraph and > then argue endlessly about it like the second one. So you still say that I belong to the free software movement . No I don't I am just some child playing around with his EEE 901 and the baby "sid" LOL No arguments from now. @Microsoft Please forgive me , can't stop calling you "M$" . You have produced great rocking software's like Windows XP . I hail thee . Happy ? Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hello Pavithran, On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 01:59:03PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > 2009/8/7 Andy Smith : > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:24:07PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > >> And as Linux users we ( if we have enough free software spirit > >> ) need not give it its due by calling it respectfully with its > >> full name . [...] > For Your Information Free software Movement *never* calls companies > with names. I don't represent FSF or any such organisations , why tie > me with the movement ? ( which I think is doing great work ) The free software movement has a very vocal minority of people like yourself who are happy to say things like the first paragraph and then argue endlessly about it like the second one. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/7 Andy Smith : > Hi Pavithran, > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:24:07PM +0100, pavithran wrote: >> Professional or not I believe this is *linux* users group . And M$ ( >> not Microsoft) has an awesome reputation of patent allegations against >> the Free software movement . And as Linux users we ( if we have enough >> free software spirit ) need not give it its due by calling it >> respectfully with its full name . > > Again you generalise massively; are you really saying that you feel > you speak for all Linux users with the above (even just all of the > ones with enough "free software spirit")? No I can't speak for Hampshire LUG because I don't feel at home in Hampshire or even it's LUG ( sob sob ) My Home LUG's are Khammam glug,ILUG-HYD,ILUGC,ILUG-B ( India based LUG's ) And foss community in India is quite united in its views . Yes I am hitting directly at the foss community of United kingdom but these are my personal views on observing Hantslug & GreaterLondon LUG for approx 1 year . *Most of the linux users are really talented * Most of the users don't care for the difference between "open source " and " free" * Most of them are enterprise /business/formal people. Having said that . the GLUG's in India ( yeah we renamed most of them to GLUG ) are more friendly and more united in it's views and actually care more about FOSS philosophy than actual code ( which is changing ) >Do you feel it is a > requirement of having enough "free software spirit" to call > Microsoft names? Ofcourse not but commenting a LUG member who has used the words "M$" is definitely not a requirement of a LUG !! > I do have a lot of respect for many things that Microsoft have > achieved. Yeah I accept MS dos was a copied version , Windows 3 copied from mac .. etc I also think that NT is a great stable product and Xp the shiny desktop simply works out of the box ( thanks to the great hardware vendors who sat down and written code for windows drivers ) >I think they've also done some very bad things. Some is an *under* statement :( >I doubt > I am alone in this view, I dont think so !! >and I am afraid that it is the risk of > being lumped in with your sort of sentiment that leads me to refrain > from labelling myself as part of the free software movement, however > much "free software spirit" I may have. For Your Information Free software Movement *never* calls companies with names. I don't represent FSF or any such organisations , why tie me with the movement ? ( which I think is doing great work ) > I happen to think it is not > in any way about calling companies stupid names. Ofcourse not . > You don't have to agree with what someone does or thinks to have > respect for them. To continually call them names just because you > don't agree with them is I think basically just childish. Since I > don't agree with you are you suggesting that I should make some > humourous mis-spelling of your name and then only call you by that > on this list? Yeah I am childish . and no I don't work under any one and say "Yes boss or good morning sir " I am quite informal . I definitely don't mind you/anyone( in this list ) calling me pvi or povi or anything weird ( just make sure that I could hear and recognise that you are calling me ) > In my opinion any serious message you have is immediately cheapened > by referring to this company as "M$" or "Micro$oft". I am afraid you might be right because many people tend to be formal in their approach . But I think a LUG is an informal discussion group . Yes we do discuss serious issues and definitely I hope( small ray of hope ) we wont ( my thinking ) get serious on How we call "Microsoft " Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hi Pavithran, On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 06:24:07PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > Professional or not I believe this is *linux* users group . And M$ ( > not Microsoft) has an awesome reputation of patent allegations against > the Free software movement . And as Linux users we ( if we have enough > free software spirit ) need not give it its due by calling it > respectfully with its full name . Again you generalise massively; are you really saying that you feel you speak for all Linux users with the above (even just all of the ones with enough "free software spirit")? Do you feel it is a requirement of having enough "free software spirit" to call Microsoft names? I do have a lot of respect for many things that Microsoft have achieved. I think they've also done some very bad things. I doubt I am alone in this view, and I am afraid that it is the risk of being lumped in with your sort of sentiment that leads me to refrain from labelling myself as part of the free software movement, however much "free software spirit" I may have. I happen to think it is not in any way about calling companies stupid names. You don't have to agree with what someone does or thinks to have respect for them. To continually call them names just because you don't agree with them is I think basically just childish. Since I don't agree with you are you suggesting that I should make some humourous mis-spelling of your name and then only call you by that on this list? > Maybe those who wanted to support " Microsfot being called with its > proper name" ... It's a sad day when you actually need a reason to NOT call some company by a playground insult. In my opinion any serious message you have is immediately cheapened by referring to this company as "M$" or "Micro$oft". Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 01:56:52 +0100, cgden...@btinternet.com said: > (I'm self-employed, and I do worry about providing best value for my > customers. That's why I'm barely making a living despite having plenty > of work.) The two need not be mutually exclusive! Keith -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/6 Andy Random : > > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Keith Edmunds wrote: > Personally I have no problem with it. Same here . I actually use M$ instead of MS just replaying "S" with $ company because it is *a* rich company :D > If someone used it all the time in any context that might be slightly > annoying, but in a "Friday afternoon"/humorous/light hearted context I > think it is entirely appropriate for the list. Yeah agree. > > There are certainly a lot of things which annoy me a lot more, like > top-posting, not trimming quoted content, HTML email etc. same here . I also encountered a well trimmed top posting LOL > As for it being "unprofessional" well yes of course it is, I would never > use it in an email to my boss or a customer, Agree would not use in a business / important transaction which needs professional ethics .. blah blah blah > but this list isn't a > professional forum, and again in the context of "friends" chatting amongst > themselves on the list I see no issue with it. Professional or not I believe this is *linux* users group . And M$ ( not Microsoft) has an awesome reputation of patent allegations against the Free software movement . And as Linux users we ( if we have enough free software spirit ) need not give it its due by calling it respectfully with its full name . Maybe those who wanted to support " Microsfot being called with its proper name" should be reminded of how M$ tried to hijack one of the best commercial distributions in the world . Should I give the name ? Please google for " Microft Novell deal " which pretty explains the intentions of the company . Even stock markets call is MSFT .. I call it M$ what's the difference ? Some people are very happy that M$ has contributed code. So be it who cares !! See the attitude of M$ towards linux " We're cheaper than Apple! (but not Linux)" from CNET news http://bit.ly/BAJAr Hang me upside down still I am going to call the great Microsoft as M$ Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Keith Edmunds wrote: > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 12:35:31 +, a...@strugglers.net said: > >> PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", >>"Microshaft" etc. in emails? > > Very much so. It's unprofessional (and to quote my teacher of years ago, > it isn't big and and it isn't clever). I'd like to think that Linux > devotees can rise above name calling. Personally I have no problem with it. If someone used it all the time in any context that might be slightly annoying, but in a "Friday afternoon"/humorous/light hearted context I think it is entirely appropriate for the list. There are certainly a lot of things which annoy me a lot more, like top-posting, not trimming quoted content, HTML email etc. As for it being "unprofessional" well yes of course it is, I would never use it in an email to my boss or a customer, but this list isn't a professional forum, and again in the context of "friends" chatting amongst themselves on the list I see no issue with it. Andy -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
2009/8/6 pavithran : > Ubuntu and its upstream commitments are a bit confusing for me . > Can you be more specific? > Also have a look at > http://charismacode.blogspot.com/2007/01/powers-and-repositories-ubuntu-and.html > Too long, didn't read. Cheers, Al. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
2009/8/6 alan c : > Except when I am in the shower, :-) I nearly *always* wear a hat or > tee shirt advertising my own favourite 'brand' (ubuntu). > Marketing is partly about establishing a brand, and for better or > worse, Ubuntu is doing this best. Ubuntu and its upstream commitments are a bit confusing for me . can some one please explain me . Also have a look at http://charismacode.blogspot.com/2007/01/powers-and-repositories-ubuntu-and.html Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
Chris Dennis wrote: [...] > Free software is a secret from most people -- they only hear about the > stuff that's advertised on the telly. Well said! The 'retail therapy' is consumed relentlessly and most people are completely hooked into it. We are deeply immersed in a retail environment. It is powered by businesses, and welcomed not rejected, by most of us as consumers. FOSS is almost entirely a non retail experience. This is alien to our consumer habits. It takes some getting used to. It does not fit well into the expected advertising (expensive) culture, and is tainted in superficial reputation with the often justified saying 'you dont get owt for nowt'. Advertising has to be done by - us. Except when I am in the shower, :-) I nearly *always* wear a hat or tee shirt advertising my own favourite 'brand' (ubuntu). Marketing is partly about establishing a brand, and for better or worse, Ubuntu is doing this best. > On the other hand, there are some who are getting the message. A bloke > phoned me the other day saying "I've just bought a laptop. It's got > Vista on it, but I don't want that. Please can you install Ubuntu on it > for me?". So I did (and got paid for it). I have an elderly friend who was scared of computers. She saw a friend's Ubuntu and was transfixed. She wanted a laptop, her first, but only with Ubuntu, not Windows. I helped her look round, after she had gone into her usual John Lewis store in London asking for one, but found she did not get very far. I know I could have installed Ubuntu for her onto a laptop, but neither she nor I wanted to -buy- windows, and she was happiest with the idea of buying into a conventional 'retail' experience. I knew also that the use of a working integrated webcam, cordless mouse and a mobile internet dongle - would all be paramount for her. Linux Emporium were good for the stock laptop item and the background questions and support. They made a sale. The even more notable thing was that another elderly (mutual) friend liked the Ubuntu laptop so much that she also bought one just the same a few weeks later! along with a small progfile HP printer, which Linux Emporium also helped configure. Not that it needed any work in the event, but their experienced support was highly valued. In summary, this was a double sale of Ubuntu laptops, and a printer, expressley not Windows, and it came about because people had seen Ubuntu and Windows and knew they had a choice (with my help after they asked me). Keep up the spreading the word, and help your friends, they are the lucky ones. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Problem is your average consumer simply do not know what the hell Linux is, They go for Windows because it's what they have used and are comfortable in using it. The average user wants something to be working straight out of the box they do not want to be compiling Kernals or running various commands in Bash and editing config files when something goes tits up That's my only major complaint with Linux not everyone is a guru and when things do go wrong with it and you do not know what you are doing it can be a daunting experience and from a consumer point of view I would guess this would pretty much put them off Linux and revert them back to Windows. I mean your average consumer does not really know what a GUI is let alone Linux :) I can vouch for this I sell refurbished kit, primarily windows machines as this where the demand is people are scared of something different. I have sat there and talked customers through the benefits of Open Source what you can achieve with Open Source Software and Why you do not need a Windows machine to browse the internet and work with documentation. I might aswell sit there and just say Windows is s**t buy this. Despite my efforts it seems people are still very reluctant to get behind Linux. As for Netbooks you see a similar pattern for those customers who are willing to make a change and invest in a Linux Netbook.The transition has to be smooth i.e no problems with the O/S and configuration user's simply end up out of there depth in terms of knowledge and end up with a machine they cannot configure to resolve the issue and end up reverting back to windows which is upping Windows Market share. It'll be interesting to see what will happen with the Netbook Market obviously I predict Microsoft will continue to grow with the release of Windows 7 netbook edition. Customers will eat this up if its anything like XP. It'll be interesting to see how Linux and distributions like Ubuntu counter this. Don't get me wrong I am a keen Linux user and it is my preferred operating system of choice but the end customer experience has to be improved in order for it to gain a better reputation and market share. My thoughts > Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:59:32 +0100 > From: phi...@stuphi.co.uk > To: hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk > Subject: Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux > > 2009/8/5 Keith Edmunds : > > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 12:35:31 +, a...@strugglers.net said: > > > >> PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", > >>"Microshaft" etc. in emails? > > > > Very much so. It's unprofessional (and to quote my teacher of years ago, > > it isn't big and and it isn't clever). I'd like to think that Linux > > devotees can rise above name calling. > > Also, they have now contributed code. That's more than I have done! :-) > > -- > Philip Stubbs > > -- > Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk > Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire > LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk > -- _ Windows Live Messenger: Celebrate 10 amazing years with free winks and emoticons. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/-- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
Luke Stutters wrote: > The success of any business depends completely on providing the > best value for its customers. Any business can be aided by monopolistic > and illegal practices but no business will succeed if it is seen as offering > poor value. Sadly that's not true. The success of a business depends on making a profit. Long-term success depends on continuing to make a profit. Providing good value to ensure that customers return is only one strategy for achieving this. Selling the goods with the biggest mark-up will work too if the number of customers who complain or realise they've been ripped off is small. And effective marketing (such as making sure your operating system is packaged with every PC sold) will overcome all sorts of failings in the product. (I'm self-employed, and I do worry about providing best value for my customers. That's why I'm barely making a living despite having plenty of work.) > 8< > > I really can't agree that subtle and gentle promotion is what is needed. I > don't > think awareness or availability of open source software are its key > drawbacks. There is no linux shortage, there is no secret free software. Free software is a secret from most people -- they only hear about the stuff that's advertised on the telly. On the other hand, there are some who are getting the message. A bloke phoned me the other day saying "I've just bought a laptop. It's got Vista on it, but I don't want that. Please can you install Ubuntu on it for me?". So I did (and got paid for it). cheers Chris -- Chris Dennis cgden...@btinternet.com Fordingbridge, Hampshire, UK -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Philip Stubbs wrote: > Also, they have now contributed code. That's more than I have done! :-) They have been shown they are legally required to do something they failed to do and have decided to make a big fuss and make it sound like they made the decision instead of being forced into it! IMHO anything that comes out of marketing depts has to be untrue or just plain evil - even catbert avoids the marketing dept! Jacqui -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/5 Keith Edmunds : > On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 12:35:31 +, a...@strugglers.net said: > >> PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", >> "Microshaft" etc. in emails? > > Very much so. It's unprofessional (and to quote my teacher of years ago, > it isn't big and and it isn't clever). I'd like to think that Linux > devotees can rise above name calling. Also, they have now contributed code. That's more than I have done! :-) -- Philip Stubbs -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 12:35:31 +, a...@strugglers.net said: > PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", >"Microshaft" etc. in emails? Very much so. It's unprofessional (and to quote my teacher of years ago, it isn't big and and it isn't clever). I'd like to think that Linux devotees can rise above name calling. -- Keith Edmunds +-+ |Tiger Computing Ltd| Helping businesses make the most of Linux | | "The Linux Specialists" | http://www.tiger-computing.co.uk | +-+ -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
>I doubt any "enterprise" of any size would even consider going to > PC World. It's very much a consumer-level place, selling to people who > don't know the technology, and probably don't want to know about it. I had to go to PCWorld a few weeks back - I was on customer site, and we had a faulty router that needed urgent replacement. They made a big fuss about their business accounts - you get a different selection of stock, and much keener prices. ...Which left them overpriced by about £20 on a router :-( >I would suggest that ... the assistant you spoke to didn't know his > arse from his elbow Nah, that wouldn't happen is a DSG shop, would it? Vic. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/5 Hugo Mills : > I doubt any "enterprise" of any size would even consider going to > PC World. It's very much a consumer-level place, selling to people who > don't know the technology, and probably don't want to know about it. Ha. My boss has a PC-World Business account. Admitted, he probably also comes under the 'don't want to know about it'. That said, if you really do need some extra DVD+R's, or replace a faulty keyboard, being able to pop round the corner and have them in your hand in two minutes can be worth the premium paid on occasion. -- Philip Stubbs -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hugo Mills wrote: >If all you want to do is handle the goods, try going to John Lewis. > They may not have as large a selection as PC World (the one here has > about 8 feet of shelf space assigned to netbooks, not 20), but they'll > definitely have them. Staples also do a good display of PC's and have lots of junior staff but often have one or two knowldgeable staff on tap! They also do some quite nice bargains at odd times. Jacqui -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
2009/8/5 Edward Beckmann > Hi Hi [SNIP] > 1. online stores do not have the costs of employing assistants, keeping > lights on, having displays, renting shops or car parks. Obviously they > will be more expensive than online unless they are going to go bust. > Shops are for people who are willing to pay for advice. parking etc. > Saying you can buy online cheaper is about as constructive as walking > into a restaurant and saying the ingredients are cheaper in Tesco's. I > would be amazed if you really expected to get a netbook for a decent price. A business can run both a conventional shop and an online store. PC World is a online retailer too. I think their customers would be entirely justified in expecting decent prices from them. However, it pays to be sure so I have emailed PC World customer services and I am waiting for their reply. > 2. some shop assistants give poor advice, some give better and this > depends on their training and motives. If PC World make a markup on > having a bit of kit with windows on it, they are a bit dumb to try and get > customers to buy something without windows or to use open source software. > Although there is a moral debate about shop assistants acting in the > customer's best interests here, a business goes bust if it consistently > advises > people how to do without it. PC World's job is to make money, not ensure > best value for people who use computers. The success of any business depends completely on providing the best value for its customers. Any business can be aided by monopolistic and illegal practices but no business will succeed if it is seen as offering poor value. [SNIP] > What's my conclusion? I am certainly no fan but acknowledge that MS is > not totally stupid to have managed people's knowledge (or lack of it) so > effectively to date. They have managed to be seen as the only real option > for a lot of people's lifetimes! The way us open source fans can help is in > subtly and gently helping people to become aware of the alternatives, and > helping them in small steps. We can waste a lot of time and energy by > pushing against simple business economics of IT suppliers and retailers > unless we take a moment to consider how they operate. Saying Microsoft must be a great computer company because they have sold more software than anyone else is like saying Thomas Kinkade must be a great artist because he has sold more art than anyone else. Microsoft have been around since 1975 and they have only been preeminent since 1995. If they had been split in 2001 following the judgment that labelled them an "abusive monopoly", I very much doubt they would be enjoying their current reputation of using their talents to sell bad software and exploit their customers. I really can't agree that subtle and gentle promotion is what is needed. I don't think awareness or availability of open source software are its key drawbacks. There is no linux shortage, there is no secret free software. In my brief experience in the IT world, Microsoft products are used because of compatibility and familiarity. Microsoft have made every effort to reduce the compatibility and familiarity of open source software using legal and development strategies. The best way to see a free operating system in a shop like PC World would be to help free projects to address these concerns. However, I am reliably informed that it is very boring in PC World and it is always nice to have someone to talk to. Plus, what Hugo said. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 02:04:02PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > 2009/8/5 Edward Beckmann : > > What's my conclusion? I am certainly no fan but acknowledge that MS is not > > totally stupid to have managed people's knowledge (or lack of it) so > > effectively to date. They have managed to be seen as the only real option > > for a lot of people's lifetimes! > The whole point is even if people are buying netbooks and installing > ubuntu remix vendors like Asus and shops like PCworld disregard linux > and do Bad PR on linux which is actually hurting those newbies who > might be interested :( That's because the over-the-counter sales of netbooks have reportedly been extremely poor for shops. Either they're mis-selling the equipment, or purchasers are making unwarranted assumptions about what they're getting. Either way, they're reporting very high return/refund rates for Linux-based netbooks. Equally anecdotally, the return rates on mail-order Linux-based netbooks are much, much lower. What it means for PC World is that given their current set-up, it's not worth their while trying to sell Linux-based machines, because they know that they'll get a high proportion of returns (which ultimately costs them money). It's a debatable point whether the cause for the returns is: - Poor salesmanship - Poor knowledge of the equipment by the sales staff - Lack of understanding of the implications of buying a Linux machine, onthe part of the purchasers - Linux being unusable - Linux being sufficiently different from the expected Windows that people don't want to use it - Any other reason Some of the above problems are fixable by PC World. Some are not. Is it going to be economically worth it for PC World to try to fix the problems above in the light of the risks involved? I would guess not: the substantial cost of a complete training programme for staff so that they can tell their customers what Linux is and what it can do, vs the chance that they might get fewer returns of a small (and probably narrow-margin) proportion of their business. Doesn't sound good to me... Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: h...@... carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- "There's a Martian war machine outside -- they want to talk --- to you about a cure for the common cold." signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 02:11:29PM +0100, pavithran wrote: > 2009/8/5 Philip Stubbs : > > 2009/8/5 pavithran : > >> Disclaimer: PC world might have been doing this for long time . This > >> is the first time I ever set foot in a big computer shop . I know that > >> I can buy cheap netbooks online but I would like to touch and feel it > >> on a shop before buying . > > > > Do what we all do. Go to PC World to touch and feel it. Then go buy > > the same thing, for cheaper, on-line. > > Maybe you didn't read my mail completely :P > > There is no PC err netbook in PCworld to touch and feel just because > of the reason ( acoording to employee ) that those cheap netbooks come > with linux . Last time I went into a PC World (here in Reading), they had a good 20 feet of display space for "Netbook" laptops. It wasn't explicitly labelled as such, but they had a comprehensive range. I'd be surprised if any other PC World was significantly different. > I can go online but I would like to check in a shop as said earlier > how the netbook screen is and how usable the keyboard is because they > are very important points while buying a netbook . Indeed. This was my reason for going into the Reading one. > Looks like PC world is more for " PC" or enterprise customers cause ll > the products which I saw today are very costly . ( including PC's ) I doubt any "enterprise" of any size would even consider going to PC World. It's very much a consumer-level place, selling to people who don't know the technology, and probably don't want to know about it. > Yeah better off buying at amazon or ebay and trust the manufacturer > or some online review of the product huh .. but can I get to see cheap > laptops in london stores or do even they speak the same " PC world " > lingo ? I would suggest that either you have an extremely unusual PC World, or the assistant you spoke to didn't know his arse from his elbow, or you were simply looking in the wrong place in the shop... If all you want to do is handle the goods, try going to John Lewis. They may not have as large a selection as PC World (the one here has about 8 feet of shelf space assigned to netbooks, not 20), but they'll definitely have them. Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: h...@... carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- "There's a Martian war machine outside -- they want to talk --- to you about a cure for the common cold." signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/5 Philip Stubbs : > 2009/8/5 pavithran : >> Disclaimer: PC world might have been doing this for long time . This >> is the first time I ever set foot in a big computer shop . I know that >> I can buy cheap netbooks online but I would like to touch and feel it >> on a shop before buying . > > Do what we all do. Go to PC World to touch and feel it. Then go buy > the same thing, for cheaper, on-line. Maybe you didn't read my mail completely :P There is no PC err netbook in PCworld to touch and feel just because of the reason ( acoording to employee ) that those cheap netbooks come with linux . I can go online but I would like to check in a shop as said earlier how the netbook screen is and how usable the keyboard is because they are very important points while buying a netbook . Looks like PC world is more for " PC" or enterprise customers cause ll the products which I saw today are very costly . ( including PC's ) Yeah better off buying at amazon or ebay and trust the manufacturer or some online review of the product huh .. but can I get to see cheap laptops in london stores or do even they speak the same " PC world " lingo ? Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
2009/8/5 Edward Beckmann : > What's my conclusion? I am certainly no fan but acknowledge that MS is not > totally stupid to have managed people's knowledge (or lack of it) so > effectively to date. They have managed to be seen as the only real option > for a lot of people's lifetimes! The whole point is even if people are buying netbooks and installing ubuntu remix vendors like Asus and shops like PCworld disregard linux and do Bad PR on linux which is actually hurting those newbies who might be interested :( >The way us open source fans can help is in > subtly and gently helping people to become aware of the alternatives, and > helping them in small steps. +1 >We can waste a lot of time and energy by > pushing against simple business economics of IT suppliers and retailers > unless we take a moment to consider how they operate. Have to agree , understanding the whole issue is definitely a pain and is better left to redhat,novell,mandriva and cannonical . Regards, Pavithran -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/5 Andy Smith : > PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", > "Microshaft" etc. in emails? > Incredibly. We try to discourage it in the Ubuntu community, but some people persist. Cheers, Al. -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Hi Stephen, On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 12:15:39PM +0100, Stephen Davies wrote: > I vowed never to enter one ever again after the insisted that I > provide a valid name & address for a cash purchase. William Gates 1 Microsoft Way Redmond, WA United States is a valid name and address. Cheers, Andy PS is anyone else really put off by the use of "M$", "Micro$oft", "Microshaft" etc. in emails? -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting "Reinventing the wheel is bad not only because it wastes time, but because reinvented wheels are often square." -- Henry Spencer signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
Pavithran, Welcome to the joys of shopping at a branch of PC-World or other DSG Intnl group store (Dixons, Currys) your experience is not that uncommon. Even when they had some eeeBook 701's with Linux on them, the employees(from my experience) promoted the Windows alternatives. The quote about not being able to download anything is also (again from my own experience) not unheard of either. There are other places to shop. IMHO, PC-World is the store of last resort and I will only enter one with gritted teeth. I vowed never to enter one ever again after the insisted that I provide a valid name & address for a cash purchase. Stephen D -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux (pavithra
Hi There are a couple of issues here and I'm not going to particularly add to the MS debate. 1. online buying v shop buying 2. good advice v poor advice 3. targeting your customer 1. online stores do not have the costs of employing assistants, keeping lights on, having displays, renting shops or car parks. Obviously they will be more expensive than online unless they are going to go bust. Shops are for people who are willing to pay for advice. parking etc. Saying you can buy online cheaper is about as constructive as walking into a restaurant and saying the ingredients are cheaper in Tesco's. I would be amazed if you really expected to get a netbook for a decent price. 2. some shop assistants give poor advice, some give better and this depends on their training and motives. If PC World make a markup on having a bit of kit with windows on it, they are a bit dumb to try and get customers to buy something without windows or to use open source software. Although there is a moral debate about shop assistants acting in the customer's best interests here, a business goes bust if it consistently advises people how to do without it. PC World's job is to make money, not ensure best value for people who use computers. 3. PC World's intended main customer is not necessarily a person who is an expert in hardware or software. Those of us who invest in our learning can save or make money by using it - a PC World customers pays more than they need because they lack either the time to do research or the awareness that they could. What's my conclusion? I am certainly no fan but acknowledge that MS is not totally stupid to have managed people's knowledge (or lack of it) so effectively to date. They have managed to be seen as the only real option for a lot of people's lifetimes! The way us open source fans can help is in subtly and gently helping people to become aware of the alternatives, and helping them in small steps. We can waste a lot of time and energy by pushing against simple business economics of IT suppliers and retailers unless we take a moment to consider how they operate. Thanks for reading Ed > > That employee didn't have anything to tell he just slipped away LOL > I bought my 8 GB pen drive for 13 ? and left the PC world singing " I > am a PC and I use linux :D " > > Disclaimer: PC world might have been doing this for long time . This > is the first time I ever set foot in a big computer shop . I know that > I can buy cheap netbooks online but I would like to touch and feel it > on a shop before buying . > > Regards, > Pavithran > -- > pavithran sakamuri > www.pavithran.org > > > > -- > > -- > Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk > Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire > LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk > -- > > End of Hampshire Digest, Vol 34, Issue 6 > > -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
Re: [Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
2009/8/5 pavithran : > Disclaimer: PC world might have been doing this for long time . This > is the first time I ever set foot in a big computer shop . I know that > I can buy cheap netbooks online but I would like to touch and feel it > on a shop before buying . Do what we all do. Go to PC World to touch and feel it. Then go buy the same thing, for cheaper, on-line. I know that lot of people have a low opinion of PC World, but they do occasionally do good deals. When I bought my laptop a few years ago, they had the spec I wanted for much less than anywhere else as by chance what I wanted was a special promotion. They did try and sell me an extended warranty that would have made up the difference. When they told me it would include a 'free' yearly disk cleanup, I quite enjoyed telling them that I was just going to wipe the disk and install Linux. :-) -- Philip Stubbs -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
[Hampshire] pcworld southampton & linux
hi all, I went to the PC world located opposite the southampton central railway station today to buy a pen drive . This is my first time inside such a big computer shop hence was surprised to see separate section for anti virus software,office and other softwares like graphics education . I wanted to buy a small cheap netbook as a gift hence went to the sections to see that there is no separate section for netbook which was shocking ! I assumed that such a big shop like PC world would have a seperate netbook section hence went and asked the employee he told that was it . Here is a small chat with him : Me : Do you sell cheap netbooks Emp: How cheap ? Me: The cheapest you can Emp: The cheapest we sell is 230 £ Me ( opened my mouth wide ) you kidding right ? Emp: No thats the cheapest we sell ! Me: I have seen amazon selling netbooks for 120 -150 £ Emp : Bu they don't have windows ! Me : So what you dont sell a product if it doesnt have windows Emp: No you cant use linux .. and you cant download anything in linux /Me was boiling but dont want to scarte the poor PC world employee Me: Linux is pretty usable . please do sell it . Emp: even if we sell it no one is going to buy it Me : Asus has completely tied up with M$ now even big shops like PC world are doing this . Please go read the guardian article on M$ hijacking the netbook market . That employee didn't have anything to tell he just slipped away LOL I bought my 8 GB pen drive for 13 £ and left the PC world singing " I am a PC and I use linux :D " Disclaimer: PC world might have been doing this for long time . This is the first time I ever set foot in a big computer shop . I know that I can buy cheap netbooks online but I would like to touch and feel it on a shop before buying . Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri www.pavithran.org -- Please post to: Hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk Web Interface: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/hampshire LUG URL: http://www.hantslug.org.uk --
