Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Greg Woodhouse]

I generally try to trim messages when replying, but I'm one of those
nasty "top repliers", too. What can I say? Trying to generate
documentation by mining archives is generally a bad idea, so I see that
whole issue as a red herring. Network new style interfaces have their
advantages, but I sure wouldn't want to be forced to use one. Maybe a
better interface to VistA Mailman would make it easier to use. For
example, in Apple mail, I create "smart mailboxes" that show me the
messages arriving ona a given day or from particular senders. Of
course, this is mail, so those messages include what would be responses
in Mailman. I also occasionally flag messages for follow up. All of
these are things that would be impossible in Mailman. On the other
hand, if you want to create an environment where it is easy to navigate
threads (e.g., using the "back up" feature in Mailman) then standard
mail has its own disadvantages. To me, messages in Mailman seem rather
like IRC channels that you can enter and leave at will without missing
anything.

--- Nancy Anthracite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At the risk of being shot on sight, I like the long accumulated tails
> of stuff 
> in the emails on threads.  I find myself grumbling when they are not
> there 
> and I am trying to figure something out from them.  
> 
> I have to admit that Open Forum's way of handling those tails was the
> first 
> time I had seen something like that and it was pretty darn slick. 
> But the 
> remaining aspects of forum would likely scare away new and maybe even
> older 
> users in droves.
> 



===
Gregory Woodhouse  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure."

--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Nancy Anthracite]

At the risk of being shot on sight, I like the long accumulated tails of stuff 
in the emails on threads.  I find myself grumbling when they are not there 
and I am trying to figure something out from them.  

I have to admit that Open Forum's way of handling those tails was the first 
time I had seen something like that and it was pretty darn slick.  But the 
remaining aspects of forum would likely scare away new and maybe even older 
users in droves.


On Monday 01 August 2005 12:44 pm, TyrusMaynard wrote:
> I want to do some summary on this thread plus some points found on other
> recent threads that are related (disclaiming that I represent any other)
>
> *when I initiated this topic I mistakenly thought that VistaOffice would be
> deploying the *forum* tools at sourceforge, but instead it has been setup
> as a mailman list and will have  forum in its name only
> (I hope that VistaOffice will convert to *true forum* ex post facto(in
> consolation for the likelihood that hardhats will keep it's status quo))
>
> * it is observed that increased traffic at hardhats is ominous and it is
> uncertain if a forum application will make it easier to read the volume of
> content (or  if efficiency for hardhats is substantially a readability
> problem).
>
> * although some posts  favor switching to forum, others are neutral, and
> some are strongly against it, due to  simplicity of email
>
> * many agree that email reading, and the resulting archive generated,
> suffers from too much *redundant thread history copying* with differing
> styles of top posting or bottom posting. This is automated and configured
> habit on our client tools.
> (For an *good* example of someone on hardhats who posts with only judicious
> use of pasted thread copy, sort by "Mike Lieman".  To see
> automated,redundant habitual thread copy, look at posting by almost anybody
> else (including me (except for this post)))
>
> *even if hardhats ever converts entirely to a forum there are reasons why
> OpenForum/VA Forum  should not be the choice for interfacing with a variety
> of newcomer traffic (regardless of its good features or the benefit of  its
> related Vista infrastructure)
>
> *  it is unclear whether  a  *forum*  application causes participants to be
> more conscious of presentation (I believe it does, since a forum thread
> reads more like a transcribed dialogue/multilogue and you don't have to
> click on links to see all parts of the dialogue in a single document web
> document)
>
> * even if wiki is a special application where participants clearly are
> building the de facto final appearance of documents, a massive amount of
> content will continue to reside in the transactions of this hardhats
> community list or a hardhats community forum.
> ( therefore the community needs to periodically ask whether its accumulated
> content is well presented in final form (not just day to day use). Is it
> easily read in archive form and searchable?)
>
> * everyone wants one dependable location for hardhats content
> (so any partial migration of participants or content to any test platform
> will likely fail, there can be no gradual transition) (so why change the
> status quo?)
>
> * deciding to move from topicA to another email list was easy. Deciding to
> change to another application for the entire community  (whatever the hoped
> for benefits) is not easy and can only be asserted by the formal core
> leaders of a community and those informally recognized by prevailing
> tradition) ( this thread is only one installment in these types of
> discussions over time)
>
> Well, this is probably my final post on this thread and I hope I have been
> fair in summary and conjecture... until another installment of this topic
> on some future thread when  someone might dig this thread out of the
> hardhats archives for reference ...there is no easy reading.
> Rusty Maynard
>
>
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-- 
Nancy Anthracite


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[TyrusMaynard]

I want to do some summary on this thread plus some points found on other recent 
threads that are related (disclaiming that I represent any other)


*when I initiated this topic I mistakenly thought that VistaOffice would be 
deploying the *forum* tools at sourceforge, but instead it has been setup as a 
mailman list and will have  forum in its name only
(I hope that VistaOffice will convert to *true forum* ex post facto(in 
consolation for the likelihood that hardhats will keep it's status quo))


* it is observed that increased traffic at hardhats is ominous and it is 
uncertain if a forum application will make it easier to read the volume of 
content (or  if efficiency for hardhats is substantially a readability problem).


* although some posts  favor switching to forum, others are neutral, and some 
are strongly against it, due to  simplicity of email


* many agree that email reading, and the resulting archive generated, suffers 
from too much *redundant thread history copying* with differing styles of top 
posting or bottom posting. This is automated and configured habit on our client 
tools.
(For an *good* example of someone on hardhats who posts with only judicious use 
of pasted thread copy, sort by "Mike Lieman".  To see automated,redundant 
habitual thread copy, look at posting by almost anybody else (including me 
(except for this post)))


*even if hardhats ever converts entirely to a forum there are reasons why 
OpenForum/VA Forum  should not be the choice for interfacing with a variety of 
newcomer traffic (regardless of its good features or the benefit of  its related 
Vista infrastructure)


*  it is unclear whether  a  *forum*  application causes participants to be more 
conscious of presentation (I believe it does, since a forum thread reads more 
like a transcribed dialogue/multilogue and you don't have to click on links to 
see all parts of the dialogue in a single document web document)


* even if wiki is a special application where participants clearly are building 
the de facto final appearance of documents, a massive amount of content will 
continue to reside in the transactions of this hardhats community list or a 
hardhats community forum.
( therefore the community needs to periodically ask whether its accumulated 
content is well presented in final form (not just day to day use). Is it easily 
read in archive form and searchable?)


* everyone wants one dependable location for hardhats content
(so any partial migration of participants or content to any test platform will 
likely fail, there can be no gradual transition) (so why change the status quo?)


* deciding to move from topicA to another email list was easy. Deciding to 
change to another application for the entire community  (whatever the hoped for 
benefits) is not easy and can only be asserted by the formal core leaders of a 
community and those informally recognized by prevailing tradition)

( this thread is only one installment in these types of discussions over time)

Well, this is probably my final post on this thread and I hope I have been fair 
in summary and conjecture... until another installment of this topic on some 
future thread when  someone might dig this thread out of the hardhats 
archives for reference ...there is no easy reading.

Rusty Maynard


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/31/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   There is now a GUI version of the FORUM client available for Open FORUM.> We are also working on getting a web-ized server which will only require a> browser.  Such Web Mail was developed by SAIC under contract to the VA.  We
> are hopeing for a roll-out of this in the next couple of months.>I don't want any of this junk in my way.  I just want mutt, elm and/orevolution
Evolution?  New-fangled mail clients.  In *my* day, $cat
/var/spool/mail/$USERID | more was plenty!  And we were grateful
for it!

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

>   There is now a GUI version of the FORUM client available for Open FORUM.
> We are also working on getting a web-ized server which will only require a
> browser.  Such Web Mail was developed by SAIC under contract to the VA.  We
> are hopeing for a roll-out of this in the next couple of months.
> 

I don't want any of this junk in my way.  I just want mutt, elm and/or
evolution

>I hope this helps.
> 

It will help when this is stop being pushed for.

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Gregory Woodhouse]

Forum is both good and bad in this respect. The automatic threading  
can make the volume of messages easier to handle, but the very fact  
that replies aren't first class messages can be annoying and  can  
actually hinder usefulness. I frequently flag postings to Hardhats  
and create different views. In many ways, I find Hardhats more usable  
than Forum, though Forum has its advantages, too. But be that as it  
may, I think that the appeal of Forum to those of us that are VA  
employees is emotional attachment. We've been using it or years, and  
it's part of VistA/DHCP history. Then again, I've been using mail and  
mailing lists for years, too (going back the early 1980's), so I  
guess the "emotional attachment factor" cuts both ways.


A technology that has a lot in common with Forum is Usenet. And to  
tell you truth, I might fire up network news if I really, really have  
to, but whenever I hear someone say something should be posted to  
comp.lang.mumps, by reactions is, well, not exactly enthusiastic. For  
providing content, I think NNTP has been surpassed by newer  
technologies like RSS (not that I'm a terribly big fan), but for more  
interactive discussions, I think mailing lists work just fine.


===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Without the requirement of mathematical aesthetics a great many  
discoveries would not have been made."

-- Albert Einstein



On Jul 31, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Chris Richardson wrote:


Ruben;

  Glad you are feeling better.  I have been a bit sequestered in  
the MUMPS
community, but one of the real glues that has held the VA sites  
together has
been VA FORUM.  How this varies from your experience, I am not  
sure.  But
the users are only presented the latest updates to the threads they  
are
associated with or a member of a group that is associated.  The  
whole string
can be recovered easily, and new strings can be started on a new  
topic.  It
is really pretty flexible, space efficient (only one copy of each  
message in
each thread, not copies of message history jamming up everyones  
disks).  Any

it is searchable.

  There is now a GUI version of the FORUM client available for Open  
FORUM.
We are also working on getting a web-ized server which will only  
require a
browser.  Such Web Mail was developed by SAIC under contract to the  
VA.  We

are hopeing for a roll-out of this in the next couple of months.

   I hope this helps.





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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Chris Richardson]

Ruben;

  Glad you are feeling better.  I have been a bit sequestered in the MUMPS
community, but one of the real glues that has held the VA sites together has
been VA FORUM.  How this varies from your experience, I am not sure.  But
the users are only presented the latest updates to the threads they are
associated with or a member of a group that is associated.  The whole string
can be recovered easily, and new strings can be started on a new topic.  It
is really pretty flexible, space efficient (only one copy of each message in
each thread, not copies of message history jamming up everyones disks).  Any
it is searchable.

  There is now a GUI version of the FORUM client available for Open FORUM.
We are also working on getting a web-ized server which will only require a
browser.  Such Web Mail was developed by SAIC under contract to the VA.  We
are hopeing for a roll-out of this in the next couple of months.

   I hope this helps.

- Original Message -
From: "Ruben Safir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?


> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 22:19, Mike Lieman wrote:
> > On 7/30/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Forums generally suck.
> >
> > On the other hand, are four fingers and a thumb.  ( YMMV )
> >
> > Gmail Rocks.
> >
>
> this is very good and when I'm in a better mood, I'm going to remember
> this instead of my normal answer which is something along the lines of
> "WTF - were you like born yesterday...dropped on your head.. Jane - You
> ignorant slut...blah blah blah"
>
> Ruben
>
>
>
>
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>
>




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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/31/05, TyrusMaynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Mike ,Looking back on some of your posts on other threads,I notice that you areone of the few persons who actually posts without automated thread copy eitherabove or below the new posting content.

Well, it's to preserve the threading of MY thoughts within the context of the threaded messages. 
It seems that the majority of folks have automated this behavior into email
clients (I am also guilty of the habit). It is a convenience easily forgottenwhen it becomes redundant, when  past thread content is not pruned to conciseitems as you have done below.
Yeah, I think "Top Posting" is one of the habits which feed into
it.  You forget there's 3 pages of discussion under "Me Too!".


   My concern is about appearance for presentation in an archive which is for
current users and users who have yet to arrive in the community (so calledposterity).
Well, there's the crux of the matter.  Is the list for *discussion* or *presentation*.

Perhaps some kind soul would volunteer to "Kernel Traffic" the
list.  Take the posts, and write a summary of the highs and lows,
with relevent quotes embedded in the summary, with links to the full
discussion.

The real problem with automating it, is that it's really a job
for  Human Brain.  ( Maybe a well trained Monkey Brain, in a
jar or something COULD work, maybe... )

Mike

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

Mailman, which is not my preferred product, makes it all pretty brain
dead.  If you can use a keyboard, you can join a list with mailman.  And
if you can search with google, you think you have a better way of
searching?

Ruben
  


Ruben

On Sun, 2005-07-31 at 07:22, Mike Lieman wrote:
> On 7/31/05, Nancy Anthracite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The step of splitting into an applications type
> discussion list like the VO users are going to likely want and
> an
> infrastructure list is already going to rock the boat and I
> feel that we need
> to take this slowly lest we risk loosing what we have. 
> 
> I don't think the target for this list *is* Users.  It's Tech Support
> Staff. 
> 
> If the user's can't figure out how to use a mailing list, the
> archives, and google to access the archives, then they're really not
> bright enough to support the product.
> 
> The answer for those folks is, "Here's the Verified Vendor list"...
> 
> 



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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[TyrusMaynard]

Hey Mike ,
   Looking back on some of your posts on other threads,I notice that you are 
one of the few persons who actually posts without automated thread copy either 
above or below the new posting content.
   It seems that the majority of folks have automated this behavior into email 
clients (I am also guilty of the habit). It is a convenience easily forgotten 
when it becomes redundant, when  past thread content is not pruned to concise 
items as you have done below.
  My concern is about appearance for presentation in an archive which is for 
current users and users who have yet to arrive in the community (so called 
posterity).
   If there is an application available to sourceforge projects that could 
extract  only the new content of each posting +signature block  into a forum 
style archive I would visit that site for my reading as hardhats becomes larger 
and more diverse. Automating such scrubbing  would not be simple algorithm 
since sometimes  a person does interpose commentary within the "thread copy" to 
give their new content context. Most of the time thread copy in a posting is 
excessively redundant (unlike your pruned context below).
 Of course the usual features of search are necessary for a large archive 
whether it is forum postings or accumulated email threads.
  I advocate forums only for the way the archives of a forum read cleanly, and 
I realize many, if not most, folks probably  prefer email to receive postings.
  When I started this thread, I mistakenly thought that VistaOffice was kicking 
off a "forum" as its sourceforge community application, because Joseph referred 
to it as a "forum" in his announcement.  If there is a "forum style" for 
presentation of archives  I don't know how that would be extracted given the 
diverse ways that people do email postings.


Rusty



Mike Lieman wrote:
On 7/30/05, *TyrusMaynard* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


  What a deal ...everybody presented consistently without automated
thread
copy in replies (as I am practicing below)!   



So, is your point "Forums  can eliminate top-posting, and the need to 
actually edit your message to be concise?






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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Kevin Toppenberg]

I agree.

--- TyrusMaynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I am posting with a specific topic, but want to
> thank David Sommers
> for his recent post expressing caution about
> "splitting" discussion between
> the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the
> historically unified hardhats 
> (which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a
> confident answer for that, but
> I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats
> convert to a forum style*
...





Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/31/05, Nancy Anthracite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 The step of splitting into an applications typediscussion list like the VO users are going to likely want and aninfrastructure list is already going to rock the boat and I feel that we needto take this slowly lest we risk loosing what we have.

I don't think the target for this list *is* Users.  It's Tech Support Staff. 

If the user's can't figure out how to use a mailing list, the archives,
and google to access the archives, then they're really not bright
enough to support the product.

The answer for those folks is, "Here's the Verified Vendor list"...

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/30/05, TyrusMaynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  What a deal ...everybody presented consistently without automated threadcopy in replies (as I am practicing below)!   
So, is your point "Forums  can eliminate top-posting, and the need to actually edit your message to be concise?

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Zeno Davatz]

Hi

I do not quite know what/witch forum software you mean. I firmly
believe there is good forum software out there as the ubuntu-Linux
formus or Gentoo forums (witch I both find far better then the
Sourceforge Forums). What they use is vBulletin 3.0.7 see here
http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/supportoptions/freesupport
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=68

I do not think the mailinglist should be substituted with a forum. Why
not both or more? Forum, IRC Channel good old archived mailing list
etc. There a many options for great softwares.

And bear in mind. You already have a Wiki in use. Wiki's are just
great if you know how to use and edit them. They are also very easy to
learn:
http://openforum.worldvista.org/~forum/index.php?title=User_talk:Zeno

Best
Zeno

On 7/31/05, TyrusMaynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
> for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion between
> the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified hardhats
> (which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident answer for that, 
> but
> I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
> I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some folks 
> might still
> prefer the email mode (and if the tools are difficult to maintain identical
> content in both emaillist and forum application modes, I think forum should be
> the sole choice)
>  For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is not 
> the
> entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) and problem
> solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation necessarily.  I think a 
> *forum
> is much more readable* than a succession of emails, whether in your own
> cherished mail client or in the archives of hardhats. Email clients and 
> archives
> require a click to move to each new post and often have confusing styles for 
> the
> sequence of pasting past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the pasting
> of prior thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for pasting into your
> PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do wish that the HTML of 
> forum
> archives treated each forum post as a document anchor for more granular 
> linking)
> 
>   If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a trail 
> of
> solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so that content is
> more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention our interacting usage)
> 
>   If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according to the
> guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the more important 
> to
> convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the additional traffic that will
> occur on hardhats. That said it's probably valuable to have the forum 
> interface
> just for readability.
> 
> Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the universe of
> hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit this link as an 
> example
> of a mature sourceforge project with lots of history to feed newcomers:
> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
>Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.
> 
> Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of OpenForum)
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400
> 
>Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical tools 
> and
> social actions
> http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
> 
> Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle as a
> forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these questions on the 
> mode
> for handling big traffic at hardhats.  I don't know the methods for this
> decision among venerable hardhats, but after some discussion and some process
> that probably thankfully won't be called voting...I'm sure everyone can take
> whatever changes in stride.
> Rusty Maynard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Nancy Anthracite]

We will get you straightened out with time, Rubin.  Just hang in there and 
maybe you will avoid that stroke after all!  ;-)

On Sunday 31 July 2005 12:22 am, Ruben Safir wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 22:19, Mike Lieman wrote:
> > On 7/30/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Forums generally suck.
> >
> > On the other hand, are four fingers and a thumb.  ( YMMV )
> >
> > Gmail Rocks.
>
> this is very good and when I'm in a better mood, I'm going to remember
> this instead of my normal answer which is something along the lines of
> "WTF - were you like born yesterday...dropped on your head.. Jane - You
> ignorant slut...blah blah blah"
>
> Ruben
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Nancy Anthracite


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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Nancy Anthracite]

This list has built from one with only occasional posts to a busy one that has 
built a community.  The step of splitting into an applications type 
discussion list like the VO users are going to likely want and an 
infrastructure list is already going to rock the boat and I feel that we need 
to take this slowly lest we risk loosing what we have.  

Personally, I hope we all sign up for this new list as it is important to 
bring these new folks into the VistA community so that their contributions 
can join ours to build and improve VistA.  If we are not there to ease the 
new VistA Office users through their first steps, they may leave and never 
take another look at VistA.  I actually suspect many of us will have a lot to 
learn from this because the configuration of VistA is pretty much an untapped 
topic on this list.  The behind the scenes work to do this right is 
considerable and crucial to the success of an installation of VistA. 

Those of us that have been involved with the VistA-Office project so far have 
seen very clearly how very important doing this configuration right is to the 
users and how very powerful it is as well.  I see proper configuration as the 
leading factor that will lead to the success or failure of VO installations, 
and I think that configuration will vary considerably from office to office 
and will change over time within offices.  

I am hoping that the VA ADPACs  and CACs and other specialists will be joining 
the new list to help us along.   I think the clinicians in the group in 
particular are going to enjoy exploring these new areas, and those in the 
business of installing and configuring VistA will learn what users like to 
help improve their customer's satisfaction as well as patient care and 
education.

I am really pretty excited and yet feeling some trepidation about the release 
of VistA-Office.  The cooperation we are seeing between the government 
entities and the private sector is something I think we all have fervently 
wanted for some time and it is happening.   Those who went to VEHU came back 
bubbling over with news about the wonderful training materials that were 
available and a lot of that should soon become available to us to be posted 
on the fledgling VVSO web site.  And I am looking forward to bringing in more 
people to help with volunteer efforts to provide open source tools for 
clinicians to use and teaching material to incorporate into VistA to help 
educate our patients and maybe even attract some funding for the technical 
gurus build interfaces, etc.  I fear failure to build this community 
successfully and I will be doing every thing I can to see that it does not 
happen.

On Saturday 30 July 2005 10:37 pm, TyrusMaynard wrote:
> I am only a relatively recent arrival to the hardhats list and a
> beneficiary no matter how this content is packaged ...thank you all.
> The example I  offered in the initial post is a link to LEO another type of
> project but with a strong and disciplined membership. I believe groups are
> mainly composed of their demeanor and traditions whatever the tools offered
> them ...but I believe forum offers a better finished product in archives
> and archiving is important.
>   The sourceforge forums are very searchable just as the email archives
> are. The basic boolean and/or searching seems as good as I can get out of
> my large collection of local hardhats email on mozilla.
>   One problem I failed to mention is that your local email is yours and a
> forum server can be slower.
>   The link provided by David Sommers is excellent reading on group dynamics
> and it suggests some sort of leadership has to guide changes (whatever form
> of voting with partial participation  or other polling is used in the whole
> community). In discussion, which is what I intended here, Ruben has spoken
> out for email lists which is the status quo and I do not categorize email
> lists and archives as a failure.
>   I continue to advocate a forum for the benefits of a cleaner (and 
> searchable) archive  which I believe to be an easier read. Speed of the
> server is  another consideration...but I am considering giving the
> maintenance of my local client hardhats archive anyway. Thanks for the
> active list.
> Rusty
>
> Ruben Safir wrote:
> > Forums generally suck.  Web tools squash communications and of course,
> > are nothing like the tools for handling email.  Nearly ever major
> > programming project has been handled by mailing lists, news groups, and
> > mutt.
> >
> > This and searchable archives are the backbone of collaboration.
> >
> > Finally, MORE mailing lists just means more things I need to sing up to
> > and merge in my mailbox.
> >
> > And please don't look at Open Office for a guild on these kinds of
> > things.  They are a complete failure in this regard, and that is before
> > we start to discuss the problems of the product itself.
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> > On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 21:09 -0400, TyrusMaynard wrote:
> >>   

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 22:19, Mike Lieman wrote:
> On 7/30/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forums generally suck.  
> 
> On the other hand, are four fingers and a thumb.  ( YMMV )
> 
> Gmail Rocks.
> 

this is very good and when I'm in a better mood, I'm going to remember
this instead of my normal answer which is something along the lines of
"WTF - were you like born yesterday...dropped on your head.. Jane - You
ignorant slut...blah blah blah"

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 23:28, TyrusMaynard wrote:
> Joseph,
>By "forum style" do you mean the accumulated archives of an email list? 


That is the "motherload" of searchable archives.  And it works great
with google.  A backend to usenet is useful sometimes as well.


>  I have wrongly assumed that your invitation was to a forum  but I now 
> realize that the link is to mailman listinfo for an email list instead. 
> Whether 
> or not there is successful splitting of the community tools, I believe a 
> forum 
> would be a better mode

No it would be a disaster.  In fact, RMS wouldn't even have access to a
"forum" because he never uses the net and fetches his mail by scping his
/var/spool/mail directory and using rmail in emacs.

A forum is for control freaks who feel great need to have control of
discussions.  Its a disaster for grepping through messages, quickly
addressing issues while at work, and general communication.

It's just sucks.  It's a crackpot cooperate idea based on control of the
information which stymies conversation and innovation.  And it is
further propagated as idea by AOL junkies who never used compuserve. 
Every "forum" I've ever seen from match.com to Oracles Tech Forum has
been designed and successfully stymied contributions for the sake of
control.

Even Slashdot have limited use as a communications mechanism.

If you can't use mutt to communicate with the medium, then the medium is
about worthless.

   
>  for either of the split. If a mother lode of VistaOffice 
> develops...it would be better served by a true forum for later mining.
>I have heard of forums that cross post to a mailman archive ...but I have 
> not 
> seen the application that will receive traditional email posts and cross post 
> them to a "forum" archive * as original copy+signature without redundant 
> thread 
> copy* . What a deal ...everybody presented consistently without automated 
> thread 
> copy in replies (as I am practicing below)!   Wiki is yet another paradigm
> 

Screw it.  Let the threads be redundant, and redundant again.  Of just
point someone to the darn archive with google, which is really a RTFM
thingie which should have been done before asking a technical question.


> Thanks for your work in making all this commotion.
> Rusty aka Tyrus
> 

I'm not enjoying this.  This is ding dong, stupid idea of the week, the
kind of thing which is bound to arise every few months from newbies
without any real experience working on a collaborative project outside
of their cooperate visio/AOL/slaveware experience.


Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

> CVS, AMEN!
> 
> ( I dither about the IRC channel )...
> 
> 

An IRC channel is wonderful for a sense of community integrity and for
help when you need something more interactive and bit more detailed than
one can do through email.

Ruben  



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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[TyrusMaynard]

Joseph,
  By "forum style" do you mean the accumulated archives of an email list?  I 
know that hardhats has a vestigial forum which is not congruent with the wealth 
of content that will be mined in the regular email list/archives ...it is that 
mother lode that I am speaking about.
I have wrongly assumed that your invitation was to a forum  but I now 
realize that the link is to mailman listinfo for an email list instead. Whether 
or not there is successful splitting of the community tools, I believe a forum 
would be a better mode for either of the split. If a mother lode of VistaOffice 
develops...it would be better served by a true forum for later mining.
  I have heard of forums that cross post to a mailman archive ...but I have not 
seen the application that will receive traditional email posts and cross post 
them to a "forum" archive * as original copy+signature without redundant thread 
copy* . What a deal ...everybody presented consistently without automated thread 
copy in replies (as I am practicing below)!   Wiki is yet another paradigm


Thanks for your work in making all this commotion.
Rusty aka Tyrus

Joseph Dal Molin wrote:

Tyrus,

The current list actually has a web based "forum style" that can present 
messages by thread and a couple of other variants.follow the link 
below to the archive:


 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members

IMHO, anything that is an important thread and needs to be more 
organized than what we are using now should and deserves to be in a Wiki 
where it can be turned into something useful.


As for the VistA Office EHR list it too is based on Sourceforge and uses 
the same software as this list.


Joseph

TyrusMaynard wrote:


  I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion 
between
the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified 
hardhats (which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident 
answer for that, but

I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some 
folks might still prefer the email mode (and if the tools are 
difficult to maintain identical content in both emaillist and forum 
application modes, I think forum should be the sole choice)
For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is 
not the entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) 
and problem solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation 
necessarily.  I think a *forum is much more readable* than a 
succession of emails, whether in your own cherished mail client or in 
the archives of hardhats. Email clients and archives require a click 
to move to each new post and often have confusing styles for the 
sequence of pasting past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the 
pasting of prior thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for 
pasting into your PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do 
wish that the HTML of forum archives treated each forum post as a 
document anchor for more granular linking)


 If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a 
trail of solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so 
that content is more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention 
our interacting usage)


 If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according 
to the guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the 
more important to convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the 
additional traffic that will occur on hardhats. That said it's 
probably valuable to have the forum interface just for readability.


   Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the 
universe of hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit 
this link as an example of a mature sourceforge project with lots of 
history to feed newcomers:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
  Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.

Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of 
OpenForum)

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400

  Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical 
tools and social actions

http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

   Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle 
as a forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these 
questions on the mode for handling big traffic at hardhats.  I don't 
know the methods for this decision among venerable hardhats, but after 
some discussion and some process that probably thankfully won't be 
called voting...I'm sure everyone can take whatever changes in stride.

Rusty Maynard





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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/30/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:37:58PM -0400, TyrusMaynard wrote:>> I am only a relatively recent arrival to the hardhats list and a> beneficiary no matter how this content is packaged ...thank you all.
> The example I  offered in the initial post is a link to LEO another type of> project but with a strong and disciplined membership.Displine is a hinerance, not a help.  There are a lot of words here
but they offer nothing in terms of content.All you need for a good project is a mail server and an IRC channel.And CVS
CVS, AMEN!

( I dither about the IRC channel )...

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2005 at 10:37:58PM -0400, TyrusMaynard wrote:
> 
> I am only a relatively recent arrival to the hardhats list and a 
> beneficiary no matter how this content is packaged ...thank you all.
> The example I  offered in the initial post is a link to LEO another type of 
> project but with a strong and disciplined membership. 

Displine is a hinerance, not a help.  There are a lot of words here
but they offer nothing in terms of content.  

All you need for a good project is a mail server and an IRC channel.

And CVS


Ruben


-- 
__
Brooklyn Linux Solutions

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town 
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological 
proportions in the mind of the world  - RI Safir 1998

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://fairuse.nylxs.com

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and 
articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn



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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[TyrusMaynard]

I am only a relatively recent arrival to the hardhats list and a beneficiary no 
matter how this content is packaged ...thank you all.
The example I  offered in the initial post is a link to LEO another type of 
project but with a strong and disciplined membership. I believe groups are 
mainly composed of their demeanor and traditions whatever the tools offered them 
...but I believe forum offers a better finished product in archives and 
archiving is important.

 The sourceforge forums are very searchable just as the email archives are.
The basic boolean and/or searching seems as good as I can get out of my large 
collection of local hardhats email on mozilla.

 One problem I failed to mention is that your local email is yours and a forum
server can be slower.
 The link provided by David Sommers is excellent reading on group dynamics and 
it suggests some sort of leadership has to guide changes (whatever form of 
voting with partial participation  or other polling is used in the whole 
community). In discussion, which is what I intended here, Ruben has spoken out 
for email lists which is the status quo and I do not categorize email lists and 
archives as a failure.
 I continue to advocate a forum for the benefits of a cleaner (and  searchable) 
archive  which I believe to be an easier read. Speed of the server is  another 
consideration...but I am considering giving the maintenance of my local client 
hardhats archive anyway. Thanks for the active list.

Rusty

Ruben Safir wrote:

Forums generally suck.  Web tools squash communications and of course,
are nothing like the tools for handling email.  Nearly ever major
programming project has been handled by mailing lists, news groups, and
mutt.

This and searchable archives are the backbone of collaboration.

Finally, MORE mailing lists just means more things I need to sing up to
and merge in my mailbox.

And please don't look at Open Office for a guild on these kinds of
things.  They are a complete failure in this regard, and that is before
we start to discuss the problems of the product itself.

Ruben


On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 21:09 -0400, TyrusMaynard wrote:


  I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion between
the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified hardhats 
(which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident answer for that, but

I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
	I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some folks might still 
prefer the email mode (and if the tools are difficult to maintain identical 
content in both emaillist and forum application modes, I think forum should be 
the sole choice)
For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is not the 
entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) and problem 
solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation necessarily.  I think a *forum 
is much more readable* than a succession of emails, whether in your own 
cherished mail client or in the archives of hardhats. Email clients and archives 
require a click to move to each new post and often have confusing styles for the 
sequence of pasting past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the pasting 
of prior thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for pasting into your 
PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do wish that the HTML of forum 
archives treated each forum post as a document anchor for more granular linking)


 If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a trail of 
solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so that content is 
more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention our interacting usage)


 If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according to the 
guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the more important to 
convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the additional traffic that will 
occur on hardhats. That said it's probably valuable to have the forum interface 
just for readability.


   Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the universe of 
hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit this link as an example 
of a mature sourceforge project with lots of history to feed newcomers:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
  Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.

Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of OpenForum)
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400

  Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical tools and 
social actions

http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

   Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle as a 
forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these questions on the mode 
for handling big traffic at hardhats

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

> As for the VistA Office EHR list it too is based on Sourceforge and uses 
> the same software as this list.
> 

Which o=is bad enough :)

Ruben


-- 
__
Brooklyn Linux Solutions

So many immigrant groups have swept through our town 
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological 
proportions in the mind of the world  - RI Safir 1998

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://fairuse.nylxs.com

"Yeah - I write Free Software...so SUE ME"

http://www.mrbrklyn.com - Consulting
http://www.inns.net <-- Happy Clients
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive or stories and 
articles from around the net
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/downtown.html - See the New Downtown Brooklyn



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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Joseph Dal Molin]

Tyrus,

The current list actually has a web based "forum style" that can present 
messages by thread and a couple of other variants.follow the link 
below to the archive:


 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members

IMHO, anything that is an important thread and needs to be more 
organized than what we are using now should and deserves to be in a Wiki 
where it can be turned into something useful.


As for the VistA Office EHR list it too is based on Sourceforge and uses 
the same software as this list.


Joseph

TyrusMaynard wrote:

  I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion between
the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified 
hardhats (which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident 
answer for that, but

I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some folks 
might still prefer the email mode (and if the tools are difficult to 
maintain identical content in both emaillist and forum application 
modes, I think forum should be the sole choice)
For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is 
not the entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) 
and problem solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation 
necessarily.  I think a *forum is much more readable* than a succession 
of emails, whether in your own cherished mail client or in the archives 
of hardhats. Email clients and archives require a click to move to each 
new post and often have confusing styles for the sequence of pasting 
past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the pasting of prior 
thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for pasting into your 
PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do wish that the HTML 
of forum archives treated each forum post as a document anchor for more 
granular linking)


 If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a 
trail of solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so 
that content is more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention our 
interacting usage)


 If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according to 
the guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the more 
important to convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the 
additional traffic that will occur on hardhats. That said it's probably 
valuable to have the forum interface just for readability.


   Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the universe 
of hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit this link as 
an example of a mature sourceforge project with lots of history to feed 
newcomers:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
  Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.

Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of OpenForum)
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400

  Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical 
tools and social actions

http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

   Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle as 
a forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these questions 
on the mode for handling big traffic at hardhats.  I don't know the 
methods for this decision among venerable hardhats, but after some 
discussion and some process that probably thankfully won't be called 
voting...I'm sure everyone can take whatever changes in stride.

Rusty Maynard





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Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Mike Lieman]

On 7/30/05, Ruben Safir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Forums generally suck.  
On the other hand, are four fingers and a thumb.  ( YMMV )

Gmail Rocks.

And please don't look at Open Office for a guild on these kinds ofthings.  They are a complete failure in this regard, and that is before
we start to discuss the problems of the product itself.
I think linux-kernel is the gold standard for that.

Re: [Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[Ruben Safir]

Forums generally suck.  Web tools squash communications and of course,
are nothing like the tools for handling email.  Nearly ever major
programming project has been handled by mailing lists, news groups, and
mutt.

This and searchable archives are the backbone of collaboration.

Finally, MORE mailing lists just means more things I need to sing up to
and merge in my mailbox.

And please don't look at Open Office for a guild on these kinds of
things.  They are a complete failure in this regard, and that is before
we start to discuss the problems of the product itself.

Ruben


On Sat, 2005-07-30 at 21:09 -0400, TyrusMaynard wrote:
>I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
> for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion between
> the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified hardhats 
> (which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident answer for that, 
> but
> I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
>   I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some folks 
> might still 
> prefer the email mode (and if the tools are difficult to maintain identical 
> content in both emaillist and forum application modes, I think forum should 
> be 
> the sole choice)
>  For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is not 
> the 
> entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) and problem 
> solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation necessarily.  I think a 
> *forum 
> is much more readable* than a succession of emails, whether in your own 
> cherished mail client or in the archives of hardhats. Email clients and 
> archives 
> require a click to move to each new post and often have confusing styles for 
> the 
> sequence of pasting past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the 
> pasting 
> of prior thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for pasting into 
> your 
> PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do wish that the HTML of 
> forum 
> archives treated each forum post as a document anchor for more granular 
> linking)
> 
>   If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a trail 
> of 
> solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so that content is 
> more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention our interacting usage)
> 
>   If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according to the 
> guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the more important 
> to 
> convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the additional traffic that 
> will 
> occur on hardhats. That said it's probably valuable to have the forum 
> interface 
> just for readability.
> 
> Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the universe of 
> hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit this link as an 
> example 
> of a mature sourceforge project with lots of history to feed newcomers:
> http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
>Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.
> 
> Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of OpenForum)
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400
> 
>Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical tools 
> and 
> social actions
> http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
> 
> Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle as a 
> forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these questions on the 
> mode 
> for handling big traffic at hardhats.  I don't know the methods for this 
> decision among venerable hardhats, but after some discussion and some process 
> that probably thankfully won't be called voting...I'm sure everyone can take 
> whatever changes in stride.
> Rusty Maynard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Hardhats-members] Forum Mode for Hardhats NOW?

[TyrusMaynard]

  I am posting with a specific topic, but want to thank David Sommers
for his recent post expressing caution about "splitting" discussion between
the new VistaOffice (which is a forum) and the historically unified hardhats 
(which of course is a mail list)  I don't have a confident answer for that, but

I am reviving an older question  *will hardhats convert to a forum style*
	I believe the time to convert is now, although I realize some folks might still 
prefer the email mode (and if the tools are difficult to maintain identical 
content in both emaillist and forum application modes, I think forum should be 
the sole choice)
For Friday 7/29 there were about 150 email postings, but volume is not the 
entire issue.  The threads are long (which is proof of effort) and problem 
solving and teaching is a multifocal conversation necessarily.  I think a *forum 
is much more readable* than a succession of emails, whether in your own 
cherished mail client or in the archives of hardhats. Email clients and archives 
require a click to move to each new post and often have confusing styles for the 
sequence of pasting past copy into a reply. *Forum mode transcends the pasting 
of prior thread content*  and it presents a cleaner read for pasting into your 
PIM or linking into other sites like wiki etc ( I do wish that the HTML of forum 
archives treated each forum post as a document anchor for more granular linking)


 If we believe that our postings should have the discipline to leave a trail of 
solutions that alone speaks for using a forum archive so that content is 
more readable by subsequent visitors (not to mention our interacting usage)


 If it is appropriate to have the OpenOffice/hardhats split according to the 
guidelines just now  posted by Joseph , I think it is all the more important to 
convert hardhats to forum, if only to  handle the additional traffic that will 
occur on hardhats. That said it's probably valuable to have the forum interface 
just for readability.


   Right now there is not a large mass of forum content in the universe of 
hardhats/worldvista/mumps/gtm to reflect upon, but visit this link as an example 
of a mature sourceforge project with lots of history to feed newcomers:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=10226
  Pick a thread with 20 or 30 replies and consider its readability.

Now read this archive of Hardhats email thread (on the topic of OpenForum)
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10218400

  Thanks for David Sommers link to the excellent article on technical tools and 
social actions

http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

   Now that the VistaOffice has been given its guidelines and vehicle as a 
forum, the core group that guides hardhats must face these questions on the mode 
for handling big traffic at hardhats.  I don't know the methods for this 
decision among venerable hardhats, but after some discussion and some process 
that probably thankfully won't be called voting...I'm sure everyone can take 
whatever changes in stride.

Rusty Maynard





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