Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
On Sat, 2006-01-14 at 21:03 -0600, Gregory Woodhouse wrote: [KSB] <...snip...> > > so they are effectively useless as standards - it's > > much easier to accommodate differences in syntax than it is > > differences > > in semantics. > > I'm not quite sure what you mean here. In fact, one of my major > complaints about the M standard is that it doesn't really touch on > semantic issues at all, except in a very informal way. I'm not > saying > we need complete mathematical rigor, but a reasonably formal > operational semantics would be nice. But be that as it may, I don't > think I agree: syntactic forms without a semantic interpretation > (whether we make it explicit or not) are pointless. The question is > not whether or not you define new semantics but whether or not the > semantics is formally specified. [KSB] I think we're actually in violent agreement! If I had two different syntactic constructs with the same semantics in two M implementations, I could easily code around it. But standardized syntax that doesn't specify common semantics is much harder to deal with. -- Bhaskar --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
On Jan 14, 2006, at 10:29 AM, Bhaskar, KS wrote: SSVNs are an attempt to provide a "standard" way to provide access to some features that were previously provided in a non-standard way on different MUMPSen. That sounds right. Unfortunately, M standardizes the names of SSVNs but not their behavior, Yes. so they are effectively useless as standards - it's much easier to accommodate differences in syntax than it is differences in semantics. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. In fact, one of my major complaints about the M standard is that it doesn't really touch on semantic issues at all, except in a very informal way. I'm not saying we need complete mathematical rigor, but a reasonably formal operational semantics would be nice. But be that as it may, I don't think I agree: syntactic forms without a semantic interpretation (whether we make it explicit or not) are pointless. The question is not whether or not you define new semantics but whether or not the semantics is formally specified. GT.M does not support SSVNs, in part for this reason. There were/are also some security concerns with some SSVNs. Maybe it doesn't need to be said, but I wasn't criticizing GT.M, just point out that you won't find these SSVNs on a GT.M system. -- Bhaskar === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Einstein was a giant. He had his head in the clouds and his feet on the ground." --Richard P. Feynman --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
SSVNs are an attempt to provide a "standard" way to provide access to some features that were previously provided in a non-standard way on different MUMPSen. Unfortunately, M standardizes the names of SSVNs but not their behavior, so they are effectively useless as standards - it's much easier to accommodate differences in syntax than it is differences in semantics. GT.M does not support SSVNs, in part for this reason. There were/are also some security concerns with some SSVNs. -- Bhaskar On Sat, 2006-01-14 at 09:01 -0600, Gregory Woodhouse wrote: > > On Jan 14, 2006, at 5:00 AM, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: > > > I'll be dumb. What is SSVN? > > > > Kevin > > SSVN = Structured System Variable Name. > > I'm told that GT.M doesn't support them (correct me if I'm wrong), > but if you're using Cache or another MUMPS implementation, you > might > try $ORDERing through > > ^$ROUTINE > ^$GLOBAL > ^$JOB > > These are kind of pseudo-globals that represent information about > the > system. For example, ^$JOB is something like the /proc filesystem > under Linux. > > When I get around to writing my own MUMPS implementation, I think > it > will need to support user-defined SSVNs. (Isn't that an oxymoron?) > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Prediction is difficult, especially of the future." > --Niels Bohr --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
On Jan 14, 2006, at 5:00 AM, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: I'll be dumb. What is SSVN? Kevin SSVN = Structured System Variable Name. I'm told that GT.M doesn't support them (correct me if I'm wrong), but if you're using Cache or another MUMPS implementation, you might try $ORDERing through ^$ROUTINE ^$GLOBAL ^$JOB These are kind of pseudo-globals that represent information about the system. For example, ^$JOB is something like the /proc filesystem under Linux. When I get around to writing my own MUMPS implementation, I think it will need to support user-defined SSVNs. (Isn't that an oxymoron?) === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Prediction is difficult, especially of the future." --Niels Bohr --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
I'll be dumb. What is SSVN?KevinOn 1/14/06, LD 'Gus' Landis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, Sounds like an opportunity for an SSVN to me. What is the "vox populi" on the notion of SSVNs anyway? Cheers, --ldlOn 1/14/06, Jim Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Bhaskar wrote:> >Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the kernel, > >isolated from the applications.> >> >GT.M doesn't provide a function to stat a file. The two approaches> >would be to use ZSYstem to call a program like ls, stat or file, or to > >call a standard C library function to get the answer.>> This reminds me of what I think might be THE most elegant way to extend MUMPS to a more> complete computing paradigm. Allow direct mapping of a global to a directory of files such > that from the MUMPS side, a file could be treated simply as a global variable, and from> the OS side, MUMPS data (some, not necessarily all) could be made directly accessible to> other applications. >> When I was (prior to GT.M/Linux) actively seeking a way forward for MUMPS development that> could avoid lock-in to proprietary databases and trying to find a way to have the benefits> of MUMPS globals in other programming languages, it occurred to me that the closest thing > to MUMPS globals outside of MUMPS is the file system provided by each OS.>> Both provide an ordered hierarchical collection of persistent shared named values. MUMPS> globals are generally optimized more for speed of access to a larger tree of data with > generally smaller data values, but the similarities seem amazingly close to me.>> The primary differences are that> 1) files are essentially unlimited in size where MUMPS data values> generally have been constrained to a size of hundreds or perhaps > thousands of bytes. GT.M now allows local values up to one megabyte> but limits global values to blocks of 1KB up to 32KB (last I checked).> 2) Every file generally has individual access permissions but an individual > global reference generally does not. Some MUMPS implementations allow> individual globals to map to separate files while others allow ranges of> subscripts within a given global to be mapped to different files. >> Providing an optional globals model that simply maps a global to a directory of a file> system would make the exchange of data with other applications simpler and more uniform, A> MUMPS data file that could be mounted as a file system for some purposes could provide a > potentially faster file system.>> ---> Jim Self> Systems Architect, Lead Developer> VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis> ( http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)>>> ---> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files> for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!> http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___> Hardhats-members mailing list> Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members>--LD Landis - N0YRQ - from the St Paul side of Minneapolis---This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log filesfor problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makessearching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&opclick___Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Hi, Sounds like an opportunity for an SSVN to me. What is the "vox populi" on the notion of SSVNs anyway? Cheers, --ldl On 1/14/06, Jim Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bhaskar wrote: > >Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the kernel, > >isolated from the applications. > > > >GT.M doesn't provide a function to stat a file. The two approaches > >would be to use ZSYstem to call a program like ls, stat or file, or to > >call a standard C library function to get the answer. > > This reminds me of what I think might be THE most elegant way to extend MUMPS > to a more > complete computing paradigm. Allow direct mapping of a global to a directory > of files such > that from the MUMPS side, a file could be treated simply as a global > variable, and from > the OS side, MUMPS data (some, not necessarily all) could be made directly > accessible to > other applications. > > When I was (prior to GT.M/Linux) actively seeking a way forward for MUMPS > development that > could avoid lock-in to proprietary databases and trying to find a way to have > the benefits > of MUMPS globals in other programming languages, it occurred to me that the > closest thing > to MUMPS globals outside of MUMPS is the file system provided by each OS. > > Both provide an ordered hierarchical collection of persistent shared named > values. MUMPS > globals are generally optimized more for speed of access to a larger tree of > data with > generally smaller data values, but the similarities seem amazingly close to > me. > > The primary differences are that > 1) files are essentially unlimited in size where MUMPS data values > generally have been constrained to a size of hundreds or perhaps > thousands of bytes. GT.M now allows local values up to one megabyte > but limits global values to blocks of 1KB up to 32KB (last I checked). > 2) Every file generally has individual access permissions but an individual > global reference generally does not. Some MUMPS implementations allow > individual globals to map to separate files while others allow ranges of > subscripts within a given global to be mapped to different files. > > Providing an optional globals model that simply maps a global to a directory > of a file > system would make the exchange of data with other applications simpler and > more uniform, A > MUMPS data file that could be mounted as a file system for some purposes > could provide a > potentially faster file system. > > --- > Jim Self > Systems Architect, Lead Developer > VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis > (http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself) > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > -- LD Landis - N0YRQ - from the St Paul side of Minneapolis --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_idv37&alloc_id865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Bhaskar wrote: >Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the kernel, >isolated from the applications. > >GT.M doesn't provide a function to stat a file. The two approaches >would be to use ZSYstem to call a program like ls, stat or file, or to >call a standard C library function to get the answer. This reminds me of what I think might be THE most elegant way to extend MUMPS to a more complete computing paradigm. Allow direct mapping of a global to a directory of files such that from the MUMPS side, a file could be treated simply as a global variable, and from the OS side, MUMPS data (some, not necessarily all) could be made directly accessible to other applications. When I was (prior to GT.M/Linux) actively seeking a way forward for MUMPS development that could avoid lock-in to proprietary databases and trying to find a way to have the benefits of MUMPS globals in other programming languages, it occurred to me that the closest thing to MUMPS globals outside of MUMPS is the file system provided by each OS. Both provide an ordered hierarchical collection of persistent shared named values. MUMPS globals are generally optimized more for speed of access to a larger tree of data with generally smaller data values, but the similarities seem amazingly close to me. The primary differences are that 1) files are essentially unlimited in size where MUMPS data values generally have been constrained to a size of hundreds or perhaps thousands of bytes. GT.M now allows local values up to one megabyte but limits global values to blocks of 1KB up to 32KB (last I checked). 2) Every file generally has individual access permissions but an individual global reference generally does not. Some MUMPS implementations allow individual globals to map to separate files while others allow ranges of subscripts within a given global to be mapped to different files. Providing an optional globals model that simply maps a global to a directory of a file system would make the exchange of data with other applications simpler and more uniform, A MUMPS data file that could be mounted as a file system for some purposes could provide a potentially faster file system. --- Jim Self Systems Architect, Lead Developer VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis (http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself) --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Greg; That is true on the VA machines, but you have your own machine and can add code anywhere you like on that machine. If you screw it up, then you just reload it from a previous copy. If you come up with something really cool, then you bring it here and let others play with it and add features the same way you did on your machine. Believe me that if you got something really cool put together and it got the bugs worked out by the community and it was useful, then it could find its way into the Kernel. There are far too many "Thou shalt not's" in the world. Best wishes; Chris - Original Message - From: "Greg Woodhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file? > --- "Bhaskar, KS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the > > kernel, > > isolated from the applications. > > That's right, but Kevin can't add code to the Kernel (and neither can I). > > === > Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. > If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." > --Guy L. Steele, Jr. > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
--- "Bhaskar, KS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the > kernel, > isolated from the applications. That's right, but Kevin can't add code to the Kernel (and neither can I). === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." --Guy L. Steele, Jr. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Code specific to each MUMPS implementation should belong in the kernel, isolated from the applications. GT.M doesn't provide a function to stat a file. The two approaches would be to use ZSYstem to call a program like ls, stat or file, or to call a standard C library function to get the answer. -- Bhaskar On Fri, 2006-01-13 at 14:38 -0600, Greg Woodhouse wrote: > --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've decided to put such code into TMGKERNL, and if someone wants > the > > code > > later it will all be in one place. > > > > Kevin > > > > That sounds like a good idea to me. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. > If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." > --Guy L. Steele, Jr. > > > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log > files > for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes > searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD > SPLUNK! > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've decided to put such code into TMGKERNL, and if someone wants the > code > later it will all be in one place. > > Kevin > That sounds like a good idea to me. === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." --Guy L. Steele, Jr. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
I've decided to put such code into TMGKERNL, and if someone wants the code later it will all be in one place.KevinOn 1/13/06, Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Very cool. That works. Any chance of getting such functionality into Kernel? I feel bad writing GT.M specific code.Kevin
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Very cool. That works.Any chance of getting such functionality into Kernel? I feel bad writing GT.M specific code.KevinOn 1/13/06, Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> My point is that I need a solution that is not GT.M specific.>> Kevin>Right, bif such functionality were included in Kernel, it would need to be implemented in GT.M.If you want a Unix command, tryls -1FThe 1 places one file on a line (no multi-column output), and the -Fplaces a character after the file to indicate what type of file it is (directories will have a trailing "/"). Note that ordinary files thatare not directories, not executable, and not symbolic links will haveno trailing symbol.===Gregory Woodhouse < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>"If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran.If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases."--Guy L. Steele, Jr.--- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log filesfor problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makessearching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click___Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My point is that I need a solution that is not GT.M specific. > > Kevin > Right, bif such functionality were included in Kernel, it would need to be implemented in GT.M. If you want a Unix command, try ls -1F The 1 places one file on a line (no multi-column output), and the -F places a character after the file to indicate what type of file it is (directories will have a trailing "/"). Note that ordinary files that are not directories, not executable, and not symbolic links will have no trailing symbol. === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." --Guy L. Steele, Jr. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
I'll let Bhaskar answer, but from past responses I feel confident that GT.M doesn't try to replicate the functionality of the OS. It would expect one to do a ZSYSTEM function and let bash do it for GT.M. I can do this without too much trouble. My point is that I need a solution that is not GT.M specific.KevinOn 1/13/06, Greg Woodhouse < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Is there a call in GT.M to stat a file? Perhaps something comparable to the -d test in bash?===Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran.If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." --Guy L. Steele, Jr.---This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log filesfor problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK!http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___Hardhats-members mailing listHardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
[Hardhats-members] So...how do you stat a file?
Is there a call in GT.M to stat a file? Perhaps something comparable to the -d test in bash? === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp, he has any language he pleases." --Guy L. Steele, Jr. --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7637&alloc_id=16865&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
