Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[nobozoz]

I would think Cisco knows the rules:

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/switches/lan/hubs/fhub116c_fh116t/fh116c/hig/fh116pln.html

_jim

Joe User wrote:

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
  

  

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

j.,
OMG!! I know that I've gotten older, but somehow, while I was not paying 
attention, net cable(s) have made a huge leap in tech and specs! 
Cat7/7a???  And, all I was preparing to wire my home with was Cat6e

I never planned to do quicker than 10Base1000 over copper.
Now, I have read about early intrusion of 10Base10G, but I figured this 
was mostly for internal server farm wiring.  I do so hate how quickly I 
have gotten so far behind :)

Duncan


maccrawj wrote:
POTS is Cat3, generally only stranded from wall jack to handset, jack to 
demarc is solid core. Cat3 *was* also used for 10BaseT before Cat5 
became prevalent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_3_cable


These days POTS or nBaseT network, best bet when wiring is to just use 
Cat5E or better since it gives most usage flexibility for the 
buck/effort. When we're ready to wire the second floor I intend to run 
~3 Cat5E drops to each of 4 rooms from the utility closet's switch(es) 
to be sure I can do separate pipes for IPTV, VoIP, IP cams, & data to 
avoid congestion issues. That's a year away so plans might change!




DSinc wrote:

I have been told that telephone wire is relatively large in gauge 
because it needs to pass large a...@45v to do ring/dial-tone. Actual 
signal/voice business travels along the surface of whatever conductor 
is present.

Best,
Duncan

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

j.,
So this means I have wired my entire home LAN via "patch" cables?
Understand plenum rated, but I have no plenums to speak of :)
Duncan


maccrawj wrote:
Stranded is for patch cables. If you buy a 1000' box of plenum rated 
(for example) it will be solid core.


DSinc wrote:

j.,
Sorry. I got metric/US mixed up again. Agree.
But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" 
wire. I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.

Perhaps the same as the old 18/22 gauge inside-the-home wire of old.
I wonder.. :)
Best,
Duncan


maccrawj wrote:

100m, not feet, with sold core is the spec AFAIK.

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[maccrawj]

POTS is Cat3, generally only stranded from wall jack to handset, jack to demarc is 
solid core. Cat3 *was* also used for 10BaseT before Cat5 became prevalent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_3_cable


These days POTS or nBaseT network, best bet when wiring is to just use Cat5E or 
better since it gives most usage flexibility for the buck/effort. When we're ready to 
wire the second floor I intend to run ~3 Cat5E drops to each of 4 rooms from the 
utility closet's switch(es) to be sure I can do separate pipes for IPTV, VoIP, IP 
cams, & data to avoid congestion issues. That's a year away so plans might change!




DSinc wrote:

I have been told that telephone wire is relatively large in gauge 
because it needs to pass large a...@45v to do ring/dial-tone. Actual 
signal/voice business travels along the surface of whatever conductor is 
present.

Best,
Duncan

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[maccrawj]

This thread has got me re-reading about how things work! Sounds like 7 switches is 
the limit but that's based on STP. So theoretically with 100m segments you could go 
7x100m = 700m from root switch to furthest switch.


Why would you need a repeater if <=100m segments & <=7 switches?

Mark wrote:

Solid core, one wire to travel around like you say, multiple or stranded wire 
has more sufaces for the cage effect to get mucked up, altho it usually bends 
with out breaking opposed to solid core, it does not do well with network 
signaling. You will need switches, not hubs, every 100 meters and at least one 
repeater to do the full 700.

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[maccrawj]

Stranded is for patch cables. If you buy a 1000' box of plenum rated (for example) it 
will be solid core.


DSinc wrote:

j.,
Sorry. I got metric/US mixed up again. Agree.
But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" wire. 
I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.

Perhaps the same as the old 18/22 gauge inside-the-home wire of old.
I wonder.. :)
Best,
Duncan


maccrawj wrote:

100m, not feet, with sold core is the spec AFAIK.

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[maccrawj]

Hubs are passive, Switches are active and most everything needs a switch these days 
unless you are doing 10BaseT.


My assumption would be that a switched, Cat5E, multi-segmented run could reach beyond 
100m assuming 100m/segment limit is not exceed (nor gotten too close to) and the 
number of cascaded switches is in spec.




DSinc wrote:

JoeUser,
As far as I read this and into this, you should be good to go.
I believe that any switch or hub is a repeater(?) within the 100m 
envelope. Others may differ... :)


I do suppose that there may be special boxes that are true "repeaters" 
in this context; like for cable extensions beyond 100m. I have never 
seen/used one. The last time I measured my home I will never need a LAN 
"repeater."  Whatever? My home is not that large! Go for it. Your plan 
should work well.

Best,
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

The switches are needed anyway to provide AP's down the line. I hoped
that it could also act as a 'repeater' in regards to the strength. I
would have three total... mainline from Information Super Highway to
about 230 ft - place 10/100 switch run another 200 or so and drop
another switch and then another 200 or so and terminate with a switch.

The first switch and last switch are going to be actively used, the
middle switch would really serve as a repeater (but could be used from
time to time - maybe).

I thought the liit was 250ft not 328ft, so thats good to know.

So, now what do you guys think? This doable?

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[Richard Quilhot]

Just be sure to use good quality cable and connectors.

Richard E. Quilhot C.N.A.
quilh...@gmail.com


Bill Cosby   -
"A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the
advice."

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:17 PM, DSinc  wrote:

> JoeUser,
> As far as I read this and into this, you should be good to go.
> I believe that any switch or hub is a repeater(?) within the 100m envelope.
> Others may differ... :)
>
> I do suppose that there may be special boxes that are true "repeaters" in
> this context; like for cable extensions beyond 100m. I have never seen/used
> one. The last time I measured my home I will never need a LAN "repeater."
>  Whatever? My home is not that large! Go for it. Your plan should work well.
> Best,
> Duncan
>
>
> Joe User wrote:
>
>> The switches are needed anyway to provide AP's down the line. I hoped
>> that it could also act as a 'repeater' in regards to the strength. I
>> would have three total... mainline from Information Super Highway to
>> about 230 ft - place 10/100 switch run another 200 or so and drop
>> another switch and then another 200 or so and terminate with a switch.
>>
>> The first switch and last switch are going to be actively used, the
>> middle switch would really serve as a repeater (but could be used from
>> time to time - maybe).
>>
>> I thought the liit was 250ft not 328ft, so thats good to know.
>>
>> So, now what do you guys think? This doable?
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

JoeUser,
As far as I read this and into this, you should be good to go.
I believe that any switch or hub is a repeater(?) within the 100m 
envelope. Others may differ... :)


I do suppose that there may be special boxes that are true "repeaters" 
in this context; like for cable extensions beyond 100m. I have never 
seen/used one. The last time I measured my home I will never need a LAN 
"repeater."  Whatever? My home is not that large! Go for it. Your plan 
should work well.

Best,
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

The switches are needed anyway to provide AP's down the line. I hoped
that it could also act as a 'repeater' in regards to the strength. I
would have three total... mainline from Information Super Highway to
about 230 ft - place 10/100 switch run another 200 or so and drop
another switch and then another 200 or so and terminate with a switch.

The first switch and last switch are going to be actively used, the
middle switch would really serve as a repeater (but could be used from
time to time - maybe).

I thought the liit was 250ft not 328ft, so thats good to know.

So, now what do you guys think? This doable?

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[Joe User]

The switches are needed anyway to provide AP's down the line. I hoped
that it could also act as a 'repeater' in regards to the strength. I
would have three total... mainline from Information Super Highway to
about 230 ft - place 10/100 switch run another 200 or so and drop
another switch and then another 200 or so and terminate with a switch.

The first switch and last switch are going to be actively used, the
middle switch would really serve as a repeater (but could be used from
time to time - maybe).

I thought the liit was 250ft not 328ft, so thats good to know.

So, now what do you guys think? This doable?



-- 
Regards,
 joeuser - Still looking for the 'any' key...

"...now these points of data make a beautiful line..."

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

Mark,
I think I am with you, sort of..My comprehension of very OLD
solid/one wire was very early 10/base2(?). Coax. I could be really wrong 
here! But, I am sure we are all way beyond this technology.


I clearly understand the "surfaces" business of multi-wire newer net 
cables.  I'm sure some scientist could rail solidly  about all the 
capacitive and inductive BS going on in my cat5/6 cables. LOL! I leave 
all the transmission theory to my switches and NICS to deal with. So 
far; it is all good.


I have been told that telephone wire is relatively large in gauge 
because it needs to pass large a...@45v to do ring/dial-tone. Actual 
signal/voice business travels along the surface of whatever conductor is 
present.

Best,
Duncan



Mark wrote:

Solid core, one wire to travel around like you say, multiple or
stranded wire has more sufaces for the cage effect to get mucked up,
altho it usually bends with out breaking opposed to solid core, it
does not do well with network signaling. You will need switches, not
hubs, every 100 meters and at least one repeater to do the full 700.

-Original Message-

From: DSinc  Sent: Jun 25, 2009 2:08 PM To:
hardware@hardwaregroup.com Subject: Re: [H] Networking, distance,
etc

Rick, Thank you. I do understand the "Faraday skin effect." Still,
I'm not sure how this really matters. Electricity always travels on
the outer surface of any conductor. Rarely through the bulk/core of
the conductor. But, I will go read some more and check out your
links.. :) Perhaps my 1970's RADAR training missed
something. Best, Duncan


Rick Glazier wrote:

From: "DSinc"

But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business. Most of the
cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" wire. I
mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.

I just looked this up recently on another list, in a different
context. That is called the a Faraday skin effect, (shield, cage,
effect, etc...) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage> One
site I was to had nice animated graphics of what happens.

Rick Glazier







Mark Dodge

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[Mark]

Solid core, one wire to travel around like you say, multiple or stranded wire 
has more sufaces for the cage effect to get mucked up, altho it usually bends 
with out breaking opposed to solid core, it does not do well with network 
signaling. You will need switches, not hubs, every 100 meters and at least one 
repeater to do the full 700.

-Original Message-
>From: DSinc 
>Sent: Jun 25, 2009 2:08 PM
>To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
>Subject: Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc
>
>Rick,
>Thank you. I do understand the "Faraday skin effect." Still, I'm not 
>sure how this really matters. Electricity always travels on the outer 
>surface of any conductor. Rarely through the bulk/core of the conductor.
>But, I will go read some more and check out your links.. :)
>Perhaps my 1970's RADAR training missed something.
>Best,
>Duncan
>
>
>Rick Glazier wrote:
>> From: "DSinc"
>>> But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
>>> Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" 
>>> wire. I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.
>> 
>> I just looked this up recently on another list, in a different context.
>> That is called the a Faraday skin effect, (shield, cage, effect, etc...)
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage>
>> One site I was to had nice animated graphics of what happens.
>> 
>> Rick Glazier
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 


Mark Dodge

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

Rick,
Thank you. I do understand the "Faraday skin effect." Still, I'm not 
sure how this really matters. Electricity always travels on the outer 
surface of any conductor. Rarely through the bulk/core of the conductor.

But, I will go read some more and check out your links.. :)
Perhaps my 1970's RADAR training missed something.
Best,
Duncan


Rick Glazier wrote:

From: "DSinc"

But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" 
wire. I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.


I just looked this up recently on another list, in a different context.
That is called the a Faraday skin effect, (shield, cage, effect, etc...)

One site I was to had nice animated graphics of what happens.

Rick Glazier

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[Rick Glazier]

From: "DSinc" 

But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" wire. 
I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.


I just looked this up recently on another list, in a different context.
That is called the a Faraday skin effect, (shield, cage, effect, etc...)

One site I was to had nice animated graphics of what happens.

Rick Glazier

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

JoeUser,
Sorry. Yes, the length is 100 meters. This would be between "repeaters."
OOPs!
Now reads that you are good to go.
Best,
Duncan


JRS wrote:
Ethernet is normally 100 meters per drop, (328 feet) .  


There are also limitations to the number of hubs you can put in between end 
points as well, I believe it's 3 for 100BaseT.

Many companies sell Ethernet Repeaters or Extenders, in both copper and Fiber 
versions.   Then you would not need to install switches in the line.

 -- 
JRS 
stei...@pacbell.net



Facts do not cease to exist just
because they are ignored.



- Original Message 

From: DSinc 
To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:06:55 AM
Subject: Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

JoeUser,
I always thought that ENET cable (cat5/6) was limited to 100ft w/o some form of 
'repeater' like a hub or switch.

?Probably why I use 2 GB switches to stretch my longest run of 65ft.
Thanks. Interesting question :)
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
 

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

j.,
Sorry. I got metric/US mixed up again. Agree.
But, I still do chafe at the "solid-core" business.
Most of the cat5/6 cables I have looked at do NOT use "solid-core" wire. 
I mostly see multiple-strand (tiny) copper wire.

Perhaps the same as the old 18/22 gauge inside-the-home wire of old.
I wonder.. :)
Best,
Duncan


maccrawj wrote:

100m, not feet, with sold core is the spec AFAIK.

DSinc wrote:

JoeUser,
I always thought that ENET cable (cat5/6) was limited to 100ft w/o 
some form of 'repeater' like a hub or switch.

?Probably why I use 2 GB switches to stretch my longest run of 65ft.
Thanks. Interesting question :)
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 
purposes: 1>

  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
 

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[Greg Sevart]

As you state, that limit is for networks using hubs (and repeaters);
switches do not have such a restriction.

I suspect that Ethernet extenders are going to cost much more than a handful
of basic Fast Ethernet switches...

Greg

> -Original Message-
> From: hardware-boun...@hardwaregroup.com [mailto:hardware-
> boun...@hardwaregroup.com] On Behalf Of JRS
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:26 AM
> To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
> Subject: Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc
> 
> 
> Ethernet is normally 100 meters per drop, (328 feet) .
> 
> There are also limitations to the number of hubs you can put in between
> end points as well, I believe it's 3 for 100BaseT.
> 
> Many companies sell Ethernet Repeaters or Extenders, in both copper and
> Fiber versions.   Then you would not need to install switches in the
> line.
> 

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[JRS]

Ethernet is normally 100 meters per drop, (328 feet) .  

There are also limitations to the number of hubs you can put in between end 
points as well, I believe it's 3 for 100BaseT.

Many companies sell Ethernet Repeaters or Extenders, in both copper and Fiber 
versions.   Then you would not need to install switches in the line.

 -- 
JRS 
stei...@pacbell.net


Facts do not cease to exist just
because they are ignored.



- Original Message 
> From: DSinc 
> To: hardware@hardwaregroup.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:06:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc
> 
> JoeUser,
> I always thought that ENET cable (cat5/6) was limited to 100ft w/o some form 
> of 
> 'repeater' like a hub or switch.
> ?Probably why I use 2 GB switches to stretch my longest run of 65ft.
> Thanks. Interesting question :)
> Duncan
> 
> 
> Joe User wrote:
> > Hello Hardware List,
> > 
> > 
> >   I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
> >   start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
> >   to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
> >   10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
> >   allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
> >   the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
> >  

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[maccrawj]

100m, not feet, with sold core is the spec AFAIK.

DSinc wrote:

JoeUser,
I always thought that ENET cable (cat5/6) was limited to 100ft w/o some 
form of 'repeater' like a hub or switch.

?Probably why I use 2 GB switches to stretch my longest run of 65ft.
Thanks. Interesting question :)
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
 

Re: [H] Networking, distance, etc

[DSinc]

JoeUser,
I always thought that ENET cable (cat5/6) was limited to 100ft w/o some 
form of 'repeater' like a hub or switch.

?Probably why I use 2 GB switches to stretch my longest run of 65ft.
Thanks. Interesting question :)
Duncan


Joe User wrote:

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
  

[H] Networking, distance, etc

[Joe User]

Hello Hardware List,


  I have to put a network in place. It's about 700 ft from the
  start to where I need to end it. It's got to be copper. I was going
  to run Cat6 (Cat6e?) even though its a 10/100 network and drop a
  10/100 switch every 200 ft or so. The switch would serve 2 purposes: 1>
  allow an access point and 2> let me run the network without losing
  the signal strength. Is this doable? Comments?
  

-- 
Regards,
 joeuser - Still looking for the 'any' key...

"...now these points of data make a beautiful line..."