Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Gershom B]

As an update, the "getting started" section has not been worked on
sufficiently as of yet. However, we have an upcoming platform and ghc
release again, and as the os x and windows minimal installers remain
out-of-date (and increasingly broken) I've taken the "minimal" (pardon
the pun) step of trying to leave nearly everything as is but pointing
the downloads there to minimal "via the platform" rather than via the
outdated methods.

I know this is not where we hoped to be yet, but its a small stopgap
step that i hope people can be ok with while other things get sorted
out.

Thanks everyone for their patience and understanding.

Best,
Gershom

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 5:20 AM, Friedrich Wiemer
 wrote:
> +1 from me, too.
>
> On 01.09.2016 09:41, John Wiegley wrote:
>>> "GB" == Gershom B  writes:
>>
>> GB> I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle the
>> GB> installer question from the “getting started” question.  Someone on 
>> reddit
>> GB> even proposed having two seperate pages entirely.
>>
>> GB> (Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and thinking
>> GB> this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts on).
>>
>> Yes, I also think this is a great idea! +1
>>
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[MightyByte]

I also think the downloads should be the minimal HP and separated from
getting started.  But that doesn't mean we can't bridge the gap with a
simple link at the bottom of the downloads page pointing people to the
next step: "Next...get started with Haskell" or something similar.
Then I'm sure we can come up with a getting started page that has
links to different tracks targeted at different audiences.  Based on
this discussion I can think of three obvious getting started tracks:

Total beginner command line ghci
Cabal-install
Stack

And we can even present them horizontally so they all are presented at
the same time and on the same level!

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 3:30 AM, Michael Snoyman  wrote:
> This sounds awesome, I'm totally behind it. Thank you Gershom!
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016, 10:09 AM Gershom B  wrote:
>>
>> I think this is a very good point being made. We should disengangle
>> the installer question from the “getting started” question.  Someone
>> on reddit even proposed having two seperate pages entirely.
>>
>> A getting started page that promoted a stack centric workflow for
>> beginners as a good “default path” would be reasonable in my eyes, and
>> certainly worth discussing. Certainly if it let us lay the downloads
>> page to rest with a single option for a minimal installer (with
>> perhaps slightly different branding as discussed on a ticket I linked
>> earlier — “Haskell Toolchain” or the like) that provided ghc, stack
>> and cabal all, then I think that would be a very good way to go.
>>
>> That way Nicolas and others who wanted to direct people to the
>> downloads page, and then wanted to teach them with one sort of
>> approach would be able to do so, people who wanted to direct people to
>> the downloads page, and teach them with a stack-based approach would
>> be able to do so, and people coming to the site directly could
>> immediately find a “getting started page” with a single approach that
>> got them up and running quickly, and that approach could well be
>> stack-oriented if that’s what people think gives the best experience
>> for that particular use case.
>>
>> (Again, I give the caveat I’m speaking just for myself here, and
>> thinking this through as an idea I’d like to hear others’ thoughts
>> on).
>>
>> —gershom
>>
>>
>> On August 31, 2016 at 5:48:41 PM, Nicolas Wu (nicolas...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> > Hi Paolo,
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:53 PM Paolo Giarrusso
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > > The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies
>> > > > should
>> > > be
>> > > > open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal:
>> > > > both
>> > > > have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.
>> > >
>> > > I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't
>> > > for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a
>> > > beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use
>> > > cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to
>> > > learn using both alternatives?
>> > >
>> >
>> > Sorry for not being clear, my bad. Hopefully I can clarify and elaborate
>> > a
>> > bit more.
>> >
>> > I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use
>> > GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by
>> > someone
>> > (or a resource) that has decided that for them. On that front I don't
>> > think
>> > there's a singular best way to approach this; there's diversity in the
>> > way
>> > people approach teaching and that's fine and healthy, there's also
>> > diversity in the way people learn and the goals they have with the
>> > language
>> > and that's fine and healthy too. We should be supporting people who want
>> > to
>> > learn the language as well as people who want to contribute to teaching.
>> > We
>> > should respect diversity in those roles; if someone wants their students
>> > to
>> > use only stack then by all means they can do so, that shouldn't stop
>> > others
>> > from using ghc or ghci directly.
>> >
>> > For instance, if a beginner is just trying to run small examples they
>> > see
>> > on a blog, then maybe all they need is a call to ghci. If they're
>> > learning
>> > about making a simple binary they might want ghc. If they want to have a
>> > whole managed project, perhaps they're after either stack or cabal. The
>> > point is that they're usually guided by something, and those guides do
>> > differ on what they prefer and recommend. The default download should
>> > easily support these different modes of learning and teaching.
>> >
>> >
>> > > Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking
>> > > of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I'm talking about having a default that bundles tools like ghc, cabal,
>> > and
>> > stack, since these are the main tools our community has for compiling
>> > and
>> > executing Haskell 

Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Michael Snoyman]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply Nick.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Nicolas Wu  wrote:

> Hello Michael,
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 6:37 AM Michael Snoyman 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 12:41 AM, Nicolas Wu  wrote:
>>>
>>> I think a beginner doesn't usually make the choice of how to use
>>> GHC/stack/cabal by themselves; they are usually being instructed by someone
>>> (or a resource) that has decided that for them.
>>>
>>
>> I disagree, and that's where a lot of this debate comes from. Let me give
>> an example from another language. Suppose you know nothing about Rust, and
>> decide you want to learn Rust because you see a blog post talking about how
>> awesome Rust is (with no specific link to "get started here," which is
>> frequently the case). You'd probably go to Google and search "Rust
>> programming language," and show up on their homepage. They have two links
>> that stand out (to me at least):
>>
>> * A big "Download" button, which provides the compiler and build tool
>> (AFAICT it does not include non-standard libraries, so pretty equivalent to
>> HP Minimal)
>> *  A "Show me" link taking you straight to a tutorial, which covers both
>> command line invocation for the compiler _and_ the build tool
>>
>> This is the documentation issue I've raised a few times: a new user
>> coming from nowhere has no way of really getting started with Haskell after
>> downloading the platform. _Some_ kind of "go here next" is necessary if we
>> want to improve the new Haskeller bounce rate (which is all I'm concerned
>> with). By that metric, a solid "how to get far in Haskell with just
>> standard libraries and the ghc executable" would work, as would a tutorial
>> on "writing applications with HP and cabal-install."
>>
>
> If I've understood you correctly, I agree on this point: we should be
> providing a single download that contains something equivalent to the HP
> Minimal. That's what I'm suggesting. I also agree that pointing to a
> tutorial that outlines how to actually use the tools is useful.
>
>
I'd be far less concerned about HP Minimal if:

1. Having a tutorial go along with it was a prereq to bumping its position.
2. The issues that Stack users have been running into are addressed first.
There _are_ bug reports coming into the Stack issue tracker about this
(like there were with GHC for Mac OS X previously), and this is an undue
burden to place on the Stack maintainers.

My reason for an immediate -1 on the proposal is that, as it stands today,
I would describe the HP Minimal content on haskell.org/downloads as a
"brick wall" for anyone not following a preexisting guide. (And for someone
already following a different guide: who cares what haskell.org says?
They'll just follow the guide.)


> However, based on my experience working with new users (both through
>> Yesod, general Haskell work, and at my day job), I believe that Stack
>> covers the job best, since:
>>
>> 1. The Haskell standard libraries are very bare bones, so most users will
>> quickly want an additional library, even just for experimenting
>> 2. I still see users complaining about dependency solving problems with
>> cabal-install, and new users will likely be turned off very quickly by that
>> 3. Stack+curated package sets has produced much lower friction in these
>> regards
>> 4. Stack already has a quick start guide (https://docs.haskellstack.
>> org/en/stable/README/#quick-start-guide), in-depth guide (
>> https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/), and has usage covered
>> by books and tutorials. I don't believe a holistic workflow is included in
>> the HP or the Cabal websites for cabal-install workflow (though if I'm
>> mistaken, please point it out, that would be an interesting comparison).
>>
>
> This is where I think you and I have different use cases, and where I'm
> advocating diversity that will allow us both to teach as we like.
>
> In my experience as a university lecturer that teaches students learning
> Haskell in the first term of their first year, I have a different approach
> that has also seen success. My initial tutorials require students to invoke
> ghc and ghci to familiarise themselves with the concepts of compilers and
> interpreters. They do so on small self-contained exercises. I'm at the
> same time trying to get them used to the command line, since for many this
> will be their first experience of any development at all. They need a
> simple workflow at this point since they are already dealing with so many
> different issues. Later exercises that involve a very small project use
> cabal, but for the most part this is redundant: our university machines are
> pre-configured with all the packages I know they'll need for the tasks they
> need. I try to avoid having them deal with dependency issues at all, since
> that's an area that's tangential to learning about functional programming
> and they have so much to learn and 

Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Gershom B]

And... before I had the chance to pull something together, someone
else jumped in and made this very nice proposal on the website
tracker:

https://github.com/haskell-infra/hl/issues/176

That seems like a good basis for discussion :-)

(Note that this presupposes is to renaming minimal to the Haskell
Toolchain, as per the discussion at
https://github.com/haskell/haskell-platform/issues/250)

--Gershom

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Gershom B  wrote:
> On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlo...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page. There 
> are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for some settings 
> (especially those which may have limited ongoing network access), despite 
> being warned that it is not typically recommended, so I think it makes sense 
> to continue to provide it in some fashon, albeit less prominent, for the time 
> being.
>
> If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some text 
> for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying to take 
> this discussion into account.
>
> —Gershom
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Adam Bergmark]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Simon Marlow  wrote:

> The choice boils down to whether you want stack to manage your GHC
> installation or not.
>
> I personally find it distasteful.  This has been the biggest blocker for
> me using stack, it wants to control more of my workflow than I want to give
> it, leading to an overlap of responsibilities.
>




> (I do use stack, but only with external GHC installations, and I often get
> into a mess when it tries to download another GHC)
>

I have also been using stack with external GHCs up until now, but I have
never had this issue.


> Having said that, is it better for new users to delegate the GHC
> installation to stack?  I don't know.  It certainly has the downside that
> you can't just type "ghci" and get a prompt.
>
> The world seems simpler when it consists of
> - GHC installations
> - build tools that use your GHC installations and manage local package
> building
>
> But when my build tool manages my GHC installations, there's now a layer
> of abstraction in the way of GHC and I can't figure out how to interact
> directly with GHC any more.  Also I can't use cabal (which I often do).
>
> So, I'd argue for HP minimal to be the default download option.  By all
> means recommend stack as the default build tool - I'm sure it's less
> problematic for most people to get Stackage by default, and cabal isn't set
> up to use Stackage out of the box.
>
> Can't we get rid of HP Full?  I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> Cheers
> Simon
>
>
> On 29 August 2016 at 16:29, Nicolas Wu  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd
>> like to see a single download option on the download page.
>>
>> For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like
>> ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
>> programs.
>>
>> The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should
>> be open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
>> have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. The default
>> installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
>> building ghc.
>>
>> As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>>
>>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>>> least on windows it does).
>>>
>>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>>> one is merely reasonable.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Steven J. Syrek]

alias ghci="stack ghci"

?
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 9:17 AM Gershom B  wrote:

> On August 30, 2016 at 6:23:36 AM, Simon Marlow (marlo...@gmail.com) wrote:
> > > Can't we get rid of HP Full? I don't see a use for that any more.
>
> I think it can be removed from a prominent spot in the downloads page.
> There are a variety of cases where people still seem to prefer it for
> some settings (especially those which may have limited ongoing network
> access), despite being warned that it is not typically recommended, so
> I think it makes sense to continue to provide it in some fashon,
> albeit less prominent, for the time being.
>
> If I can scrape the time together today I’ll try to pull together some
> text for the whole downloads page to propose here for feedback, trying
> to take this discussion into account.
>
> —Gershom
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Paolo Giarrusso]

On 29 August 2016 at 17:29, Nicolas Wu  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd like
> to see a single download option on the download page.
>
> For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like ghc
> and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
> programs.

I'm frankly sympathetic to that argument, though one could argue
either way even on this front.

> The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should be
> open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
> have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other.

I'm honestly confused what you're arguing. You say this decision isn't
for beginners, yet you propose offering the HP. So how should a
beginner install a package without first deciding whether to use
cabal-install or stack? Or can a beginner meaningfully be expected to
learn using both alternatives?

Also, do both tools have their merits *for beginners*? We're talking
of cabal as-is, not of the ongoing work on new-build.

> The default
> installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
> building ghc.
>
> As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.

-- 
Paolo G. Giarrusso - Ph.D. Student, Tübingen University
http://ps.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/team/giarrusso/
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Steven J. Syrek]

As a beginner, I found Stack far and away the better solution. HP polluted
my system, causing me problems it took me literally years to track down,
even after I thought I deleted it. Even if it were to improve, I will never
trust it again, and I think my sentiment is widespread. It's already
confusing to have multiple download options and multiple webpages. At the
moment, nothing beats "brew install haskell-stack" (for me, but not much
more complicated to follow the instructions on the excellent Stack hp), so
I don't see why you wouldn't just make that the one and only recommended
installation method. Everyone is being steered away from HP, anyway, and I
sort of wonder how many people who read this list are still using it
themselves and not Stack?

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 11:00 AM Adam Foltzer  wrote:

> What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
>> user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?
>
>
> Backpack is also very exciting, indeed!
>
> That being said, assuming the minimal installer variant get dropped from
>> downloads, where is downloads/linux going to move to, and how will it be
>> discoverable in future?
>
>
> This a really important point.
>
> Does anyone know if the distributions listed on the HP Linux page have
> packaged the minimal platform? As it is right now, it appears that Windows
> and Mac send you to a page where you can choose either, but Linux only
> provides instructions for Full except under the Generic option.
>
> If distros start to package HP Minimal, I would propose replacing the
> Fedora and Arch instructions on downloads/linux with that, but we'll want
> to keep the Ubuntu instructions around due to your excellent PPA. I'm not
> sure how that should look concretely, though, given that it would
> essentially become a fourth option if HP Minimal replaces the current
> minimal installer section.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Francesco Ariis  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05:49PM -0700, Adam Foltzer wrote:
>> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
>> the
>> > existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
>> rather
>> > than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place
>> to
>> > clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>>
>> As having "deprecated" link in the download page is a no-no and warrants
>> a quick fix.
>>
>> Adam Foltzer's proposal is the most simple to implement (well, I should
>> say "has the least friction in a hotly debated topic"), hence most
>> reasonable to me.
>>
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Benjamin Jones]

+1 to Adam Foltzer's "in-place" suggestion.

I was very happy when the HP team released a minimal installer. This is
what I would point people to 95% of the time, especially beginners.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05 PM Adam Foltzer  wrote:

>
> Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt the
> existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal, rather
> than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place to
> clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit  wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
>> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
>> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
>> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>>
>> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on
>> the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>>
>> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
>> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
>> least on windows it does).
>>
>> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
>> one is merely reasonable.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Nicolas Wu]

Hello,

I think having multiple options is confusing to beginners, and so I'd like
to see a single download option on the download page.

For me it's important that we have a way for beginners to use tools like
ghc and ghci on the command line directly in order to run small throw-away
programs.

The decision about how to manage projects and their dependencies should be
open and isn't for beginners, whether that be using stack or cabal: both
have their merits, and I don't want to push one over the other. The default
installation should provide both of these as well as other tools core to
building ghc.

As such, I'm in favour of having the HP as the only option.

Nick

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 5:50 AM Jason Dagit  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the Downloads
> page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads) is deprecated and "dead". This
> creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get haskell
> immediately tells the user it's dead.
>
> I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP on the
> grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
>
> Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list the HP
> above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships with stack (at
> least on windows it does).
>
> Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the second
> one is merely reasonable.
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Adam Foltzer]

>
> What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
> user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?


Backpack is also very exciting, indeed!

That being said, assuming the minimal installer variant get dropped from
> downloads, where is downloads/linux going to move to, and how will it be
> discoverable in future?


This a really important point.

Does anyone know if the distributions listed on the HP Linux page have
packaged the minimal platform? As it is right now, it appears that Windows
and Mac send you to a page where you can choose either, but Linux only
provides instructions for Full except under the Generic option.

If distros start to package HP Minimal, I would propose replacing the
Fedora and Arch instructions on downloads/linux with that, but we'll want
to keep the Ubuntu instructions around due to your excellent PPA. I'm not
sure how that should look concretely, though, given that it would
essentially become a fourth option if HP Minimal replaces the current
minimal installer section.



On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Francesco Ariis  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 10:05:49PM -0700, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
> the
> > existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> rather
> > than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section in-place
> to
> > clarify that it refers to HP Full.
>
> As having "deprecated" link in the download page is a no-no and warrants
> a quick fix.
>
> Adam Foltzer's proposal is the most simple to implement (well, I should
> say "has the least friction in a hotly debated topic"), hence most
> reasonable to me.
>
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[Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Jan Gerlinger]

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Hi all,

I believe haskell.org and its download section should be directed to
total beginners and they should not be confronted with multiple choices.

As someone who has personally seen people willing to learn Haskell give
up, because they were burnt by the global package database, I think any
global persistent state should be avoided in the tools recommended. This
especially concerns all packages installed globally by default by HP.
Cabal's default workflow (currently and probably for a long time in the
future) also installs packages globally and is thus harmful for
beginners, as they are not able to resolve conflicts and errors.

This leaves me with Stack or a Minimal HP stripped down to only consist
of GHC and Stack. Since a global GHC is not needed when using Stack and
telling people to use `stack ghci` instead of `ghci` is absolutely no
problem in my experience, I would go with Stack.

To summarise:

* haskell.org download section should cater to total beginners.

* Giving multiple options is actively harmful, there should only be one.

* Minimal HP is the wrong choice for this option. Stack is.


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[Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Simon Marechal]

(sorry for not answering to a previous message, I just subscribed).

I think there should be a single option on the download page. The minimal
HP seems OK to me, but I understand how not having control on the
distribution of stack, while at the same time having to support it, could
be a problem.

So here is my 2c:

 * Have minimal HP be the only choice. I think this page is engaging and
clear, and is a good example of what a beginner would like to see :
https://haskell-lang.org/get-started

 * If at all possible, find a way to work with stack maintainers so that
the HP stack install process matches that of the standalone tool.
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Kosyrev Serge]

Adam Foltzer writes:
> The view that Cabal is stagnant is very outdated,
> most notably with respect to the overall pace and vigor of the Cabal
> issue tracker, and the excitement around the `cabal new-build`
> Nix-style commands.

What about the backpack-related work?  Isn't cabal-install where the
user-facing CLI side of this work is most likely to be landed?

-- 
с уважениeм / respectfully / Z poważaniem,
Косырев Сергей
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Adam Foltzer]

A couple points and a question; please bear with the scattershot:

There appears to be a point of view, where the cabal thing is a stagnant
> piece
> of technology that only serves to split the community and confuse newcomers
> by detracting them from the easier, better way.


> In such a view, it wouldn't be too big a leap to come to an understanding,
> that phasing out cabal from all avenues does a good service to the
> community.


If anyone does indeed have this view, please be assured that it is far from
universal. Cabal is essential for many Haskell workflows. I and other
practitioners use Stack for some projects and Cabal for others because both
tools have their strengths, weaknesses, and mutually unique capabilities.
The view that Cabal is stagnant is very outdated, most notably with respect
to the overall pace and vigor of the Cabal issue tracker, and the
excitement around the `cabal new-build` Nix-style commands.

-1. The topmost method will target beginners of the language and
>  should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.


Many beginners will be picking up a copy of a book, or working through an
established curriculum. While the cutting edge of published guides and
course curricula may have converted to Stack, there is a vast quantity of
material for beginners that assumes you can type `ghci` and `cabal install`
at the prompt. Which particular materials to recommend to a beginner is a
matter of reasonable debate, but the best support we can give to those
beginners as stewards of the infrastructure is to highlight an option that
allows beginners to quickly succeed with the option of their choice.

should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.


What is the reasoning here? How does having other tools bundled take away
from the new user experience?

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Ganesh Sittampalam  wrote:

> +1 - that seems like the simplest way of preserving the existing intention.
>
> On 27/08/2016 06:05, Adam Foltzer wrote:
> > +1
> >
> > Since the HP Minimal fits such a similar niche, perhaps we could adapt
> > the existing minimal installer language in-place to point to HP Minimal,
> > rather than removing it. Then we could modify the existing HP section
> > in-place to clarify that it refers to HP Full.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Jason Dagit  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I just realized that the Minimal installer listed first on the
> > Downloads page (https://www.haskell.org/downloads
> > ) is deprecated and "dead". This
> > creates an unfortunate situation where our top suggested way to get
> > haskell immediately tells the user it's dead.
> >
> > I think that we should remove mention of the minimal installer ASAP
> > on the grounds that the HP now comes in minimal and full variants.
> >
> > Furthermore, I would like to make the recommendation that we list
> > the HP above other methods as even the minimal HP installer ships
> > with stack (at least on windows it does).
> >
> > Between the two changes, I think the first one is crucial and the
> > second one is merely reasonable.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Haskell-community] haskell.org download page

[Sibi]

-1. The topmost method will target beginners of the language and
 should be Stack even if HP comes with Stack.

Regards,
Sibi
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