Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Rachel Leket-Mor via Heb-naco 
As everything else in Israel (and LC classification, and most other things in 
life), this is a political question. It depends on what man/woman you would ask 
and on what street. ☺


From: Heb-naco  on behalf of Hebrew Funnel 

Reply-To: "Kuperman, Aaron" , Hebrew Funnel 

Date: Friday, 17 May 2019 at 12:04
To: 'Joan Biella' , Yossi Galron , 
Hebrew Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים


  1.  This discussion is a good example on why Romanization is a waste of time.
  2.  Does the typical “man in the street” in Israel care about authenticity 
and Arabic (or should dictionaries used by catalogers be descriptive or 
prescriptive)

From: Joan Biella 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:35 PM
To: Yossi Galron ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Cc: Kuperman, Aaron 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Dear friends,

This kind of question comes up regularly--probably with all romanized languages 
with a policy of following the advice of a particular, "authoritative" 
dictionary.  There are two choices:  (1) advise catalogers to follow the 
dictionary slavishly, adding additional access (246s and the like) with other 
likely romanizations; or (2) create a list of "exceptions" to the rule of 
following the dictionary.  At least when I was an active cataloger, Hebrew 
followed the first option, Arabic the second.  There is a list of approved 
Arabic romanizations which contradict the dictionary, and catalogers must be 
aware of it and of the need to check it regularly.

The policy of following the dictionary slavishly, even when what it suggests is 
ridiculous, standardizes the process of cataloging and the process of 
searching--catalogers know that if they search the dictionary-approved 
spelling, they will find all instances of the word they want (in theory, 
anyway).  Of course the patrons don't know what the dictionary says and why 
they don't find what they're looking for--hence the need for alternative access 
points.  Patrons also won't know what non-dictionary form catalogers have 
chosen (if they follow Option 2 above), so they'll always be at sea unless 
alternative access is provided.

Neither system is foolproof or easy.  At least Option 1 makes life easier for 
catalogers.  Option 2 leads to a free-for-all.

I don't see how we can please everybody, except by giving lots and lots of 
246s.  So give them!

My two agorot.

Joan Biella

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:26 AM Yossi Galron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin

Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
1.  This discussion is a good example on why Romanization is a waste of 
time.

2.  Does the typical “man in the street” in Israel care about authenticity 
and Arabic (or should dictionaries used by catalogers be descriptive or 
prescriptive)

From: Joan Biella 
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:35 PM
To: Yossi Galron ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Cc: Kuperman, Aaron 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Dear friends,

This kind of question comes up regularly--probably with all romanized languages 
with a policy of following the advice of a particular, "authoritative" 
dictionary.  There are two choices:  (1) advise catalogers to follow the 
dictionary slavishly, adding additional access (246s and the like) with other 
likely romanizations; or (2) create a list of "exceptions" to the rule of 
following the dictionary.  At least when I was an active cataloger, Hebrew 
followed the first option, Arabic the second.  There is a list of approved 
Arabic romanizations which contradict the dictionary, and catalogers must be 
aware of it and of the need to check it regularly.

The policy of following the dictionary slavishly, even when what it suggests is 
ridiculous, standardizes the process of cataloging and the process of 
searching--catalogers know that if they search the dictionary-approved 
spelling, they will find all instances of the word they want (in theory, 
anyway).  Of course the patrons don't know what the dictionary says and why 
they don't find what they're looking for--hence the need for alternative access 
points.  Patrons also won't know what non-dictionary form catalogers have 
chosen (if they follow Option 2 above), so they'll always be at sea unless 
alternative access is provided.

Neither system is foolproof or easy.  At least Option 1 makes life easier for 
catalogers.  Option 2 leads to a free-for-all.

I don't see how we can please everybody, except by giving lots and lots of 
246s.  So give them!

My two agorot.

Joan Biella

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:26 AM Yossi Galron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Rachel Leket-Mor via Heb-naco 
Users certainly use פלסטינים as it’s more authentic pronunciation, closer to 
Arabic.
Rachel

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Yossi Galron via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 5:25 AM
To: Aaron Kuperman ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Rachel Leket-Mor via Heb-naco 
I meant with F.

From: Rachel Leket-Mor
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 11:14 AM
To: Yossi Galron ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
; Aaron Kuperman 
Subject: RE: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Users certainly use פלסטינים as it’s more authentic pronunciation, closer to 
Arabic.
Rachel

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Yossi Galron via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 5:25 AM
To: Aaron Kuperman ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
Sigh. How many times must it be repeated that “how Israeli’s say it” is 
entirely irrelevant? Without standards, the catalog is chaos. Even-Shoshan is 
our standard.

From: Kuperman, Aaron [mailto:a...@loc.gov]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:05 AM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel'; Gerstein, Nahid; Taub, 
Jeremiah Aaron
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin 
via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron ; Hebrew 
Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco 
Re Palestine/Falastin this article by Prof. Shimon Shamir is instructive:
https://www.the7eye.org.il/27274 .
In light of this, it seems to me that romanization should be determined by
the Hebrew spelling. If it's spelled with a samekh and tet (פלסטיני,
פלסטין), then it's Falastin, Falastini, etc..
But if it's spelled with sin and tav, then it's Palestinah, Palestina'i
(פלשתינה, פלשתינאי).
Rav-milim and Morfix have both forms. And we shouldn't be confusing the
two, even if the usage is sloppy.
Barry

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:26 AM Yossi Galron via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> and what about פלשתינאים?
> Is it also with an F?
>
> Yossi
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing
>> that initial letter as other than a “P”?
>>
>>
>>
>> Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
>>
>> This is not an official communication from my employer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
>> Jasmin via Heb-naco
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
>> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron ;
>> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for
>> asking. Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * =
>> wildcard). So it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine),
>> Falasṭinim (masc. plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land
>> is Falasṭin.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *From:* Gerstein, Nahid 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
>> *To:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
>> *Subject:* RE: פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Jasmin,
>>
>> I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
>>
>> How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Nahid
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
>> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid 
>> *Subject:* FW: פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Nahid,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in
>> the LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with
>> you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> A
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) <
>> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
>> *Cc:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
>> *Subject:* פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized
>> Falasṭinim, not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization FAQchart
>> .)
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to
>> do in our respective databases…
>>
>>
>>
>> Kol tuv, Jasmin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Jasmin Shinohara
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>>
>> University of Pennsylvania
>>
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>>
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>>
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>>
>> T. 215-746-6397
>>
>> jsh...@upenn.edu
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Joan Biella via Heb-naco 
Dear friends,

This kind of question comes up regularly--probably with all romanized
languages with a policy of following the advice of a particular,
"authoritative" dictionary.  There are two choices:  (1) advise catalogers
to follow the dictionary slavishly, adding additional access (246s and the
like) with other likely romanizations; or (2) create a list of "exceptions"
to the rule of following the dictionary.  At least when I was an active
cataloger, Hebrew followed the first option, Arabic the second.  There is a
list of approved Arabic romanizations which contradict the dictionary, and
catalogers must be aware of it and of the need to check it regularly.

The policy of following the dictionary slavishly, even when what it
suggests is ridiculous, standardizes the process of cataloging and the
process of searching--catalogers know that if they search the
dictionary-approved spelling, they will find all instances of the word they
want (in theory, anyway).  Of course the patrons don't know what the
dictionary says and why they don't find what they're looking for--hence the
need for alternative access points.  Patrons also won't know what
non-dictionary form catalogers have chosen (if they follow Option 2 above),
so they'll always be at sea unless alternative access is provided.

Neither system is foolproof or easy.  At least Option 1 makes life easier
for catalogers.  Option 2 leads to a free-for-all.

I don't see how we can please everybody, except by giving lots and lots of
246s.  So give them!

My two agorot.

Joan Biella

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:26 AM Yossi Galron via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> and what about פלשתינאים?
> Is it also with an F?
>
> Yossi
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing
>> that initial letter as other than a “P”?
>>
>>
>>
>> Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
>>
>> This is not an official communication from my employer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
>> Jasmin via Heb-naco
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
>> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron ;
>> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for
>> asking. Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * =
>> wildcard). So it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine),
>> Falasṭinim (masc. plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land
>> is Falasṭin.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *From:* Gerstein, Nahid 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
>> *To:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
>> *Subject:* RE: פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Jasmin,
>>
>> I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
>>
>> How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Nahid
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
>> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid 
>> *Subject:* FW: פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Nahid,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in
>> the LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with
>> you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> A
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) <
>> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
>> *Cc:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
>> *Subject:* פלסטינים
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized
>> Falasṭinim, not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization FAQchart
>> .)
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to
>> do in our respective databases…
>>
>>
>>
>> Kol tuv, Jasmin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Jasmin Shinohara
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>>
>> University of Pennsylvania
>>
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>>
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>>
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>>
>> T. 215-746-6397
>>
>> jsh...@upenn.edu
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
Per Even-Shoshan, the addition of an א changes the word from Falasṭini to 
Palesṭinai or, second entry, Palesṭina’i (hirik under the alef).

(Am I the only one with a copy of the dictionary?)

From: Yossi Galron [mailto:jgal...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 8:25 AM
To: Aaron Kuperman; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Cc: Shinohara, Jasmin; Nahid D Gerstein; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Kolodney, Uri via Heb-naco 
Yes, I do! :)
Uri

Uri Kolodney
Hebrew, Jewish, and Israel Studies Librarian / Film & Video Librarian
University of Texas Libraries
The University of Texas at Austin
PCL 2.312J | Mail Code S5466 | PO Box P Austin, TX 78713-8916
Phone: 
512-495-4399|kolod...@austin.utexas.edu

From: Heb-naco  On 
Behalf Of Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: 'Shinohara, Jasmin' ; 'Hebrew Name Authority 
Funnel' ; Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, 
Jeremiah Aaron 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
mailto:a...@loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Yossi Galron via Heb-naco 
and what about פלשתינאים?
Is it also with an F?

Yossi


On Fri, May 17, 2019, 08:22 Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing
> that initial letter as other than a “P”?
>
>
>
> Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
>
> This is not an official communication from my employer
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
> Jasmin via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron ;
> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים
>
>
>
> Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for
> asking. Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * =
> wildcard). So it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine),
> Falasṭinim (masc. plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land
> is Falasṭin.
>
>
>
> Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin
>
>
> --
>
> *From:* Gerstein, Nahid 
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
> *To:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
> *Subject:* RE: פלסטינים
>
>
>
> Jasmin,
>
> I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
>
> How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Nahid
>
>
>
> *From:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
> *To:* Gerstein, Nahid 
> *Subject:* FW: פלסטינים
>
>
>
> Nahid,
>
>
>
> Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in
> the LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with
> you.
>
>
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> A
>
>
>
> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin 
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel (heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
> *Cc:* Taub, Jeremiah Aaron 
> *Subject:* פלסטינים
>
>
>
> Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized
> Falasṭinim, not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization FAQchart
> .)
>
>
>
> I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to
> do in our respective databases…
>
>
>
> Kol tuv, Jasmin
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Jasmin Shinohara
>
> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>
> 3420 Walnut Street
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>
> T. 215-746-6397
>
> jsh...@upenn.edu
>
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

2019-05-17 Thread Kuperman, Aaron via Heb-naco 
Do users actually say that?   I don’t recall Hebrew speakers pronouncing that 
initial letter as other than a “P”?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin 
via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:44 AM
To: Gerstein, Nahid ; Taub, Jeremiah Aaron ; Hebrew 
Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] פלסטינים

Yes, I should have been more clear in my original email. Thank you for asking. 
Per E.-Sh., all words that are פלסטינ* are Falasṭin* (where * = wildcard). So 
it’s Falasṭini (masculine), Falasṭinit (feminine), Falasṭinim (masc. 
plural), Falasṭiniyot (fem. plural). The name of land is Falasṭin.

Thanks again and kol ṭuv, Jasmin


From: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:26 AM
To: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron; Shinohara, Jasmin
Subject: RE: פלסטינים

Jasmin,
I am working on changing the romaniztion for this word.
How about “Palestin?”  or “Palestini?”

Thanks,

Nahid

From: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 4:23 PM
To: Gerstein, Nahid mailto:n...@loc.gov>>
Subject: FW: פלסטינים

Nahid,

Please see Jasmin’s correction below. Could you make these corrections in the 
LC database? If it’s too many, I could ask Yisrael to split this with you.

Thanks so much,
A

From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 5:15 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-naco@lists.osu.edu) 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Cc: Taub, Jeremiah Aaron mailto:a...@loc.gov>>
Subject: פלסטינים

Hi, just a friendly notice that, per E-Sh., the above is romanized Falasṭinim, 
not Palesṭinim. (It is in the Romanization 
FAQchart.)

I don’t know if it’s a changed romanization, but we all have clean-up to do in 
our respective databases…

Kol tuv, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jsh...@upenn.edu

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