Re: QUERY PROTOCOL - WAS Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
The problem with the halfd protocol is that it is way too verbose. This querying standard will be used for ALL 3rd party server interactions (i.e when you are not actually in the game). We need to minimise the cost of getting the status of a server. That is why the standard specified default queries (ala stored procedures in the db world) to minimise the bandwidth when getting commonly used queries. The standard also allows programs to query on an ad-hoc basis for the data they want, it doesn't all need to be lumped into on giant packet. If you read the standard you will see it is similar to the halfd format, Rob actually helped in its creation. Right now it is zero limited rather than tab limited because we didn't want to put any arbiarty constaints on the strings you can use in response packets. We also designed the standard to work for all FPS style gaming engines (in the hope that others would implement it). - Alfred Brian A. Stumm wrote: AND to add to this... the most popular HL mods are team based. One should be able to get the damned TEAM scores via a query as well... Why can I not determine that (in TF) Red teams score is 20 and Blue teams score is 10 via a query... THAT is an absolute must in whatever standard is determined. The engine should allow the mod to set a mod type flag (aka team based) which means the engine will track team scores... On a side note, does anyone know how I can obtain team scores for TFC in the current hlds, even via a middle man hack? by middle man I mean something such as how botman's code sits between the engine and mod? I've figured out how to determine lots of info like the x,y,z coords of each player, kills, deaths, current weapon held, armor, health, etc etc etc but for the life of me CANNOT find the phreaking team score and THAT is completely frustrating... On Tue, 27 May 2003, Brian A. Stumm wrote: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Alfred wrote: http://www.adminmod.org/alfred/SQS_v03.html This standard was produces by this list about 6 months ago. Hopefully something like this will appear in HL2, nothing concrete about this side of the engine has been decided however. yes I've reviewed that before. I should have commented before. a tab delimited format would be much better. Its a system that has been in use for better than 20 years now. Are you familiar with the halfd newapi standard? lines 18 typeUPDATE up 1 time1537 data users [STF]H4XI-NET_COP [STF]1337 TheOtherWhiteMeat pings 5 5 5 5 frags 0 10 1 1 times 60:42:3560:42:3560:42:3560:42:35 ips 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 userid 843 844 845 846 wonid 0 0 0 0 model PyroPyroEngineerEngineer teamBlueRed BlueRed deaths 0 0 1 1 map 2fort cnt 4 vote1 Formatting may get wasted here but let me explain. First line tells us how many lines to expect ie: lines\t18\r\n \t meaning TAB and \r\n meaning newline. Now we read 18 lines, the 18th line is blank which indicates end of packet. These subsequent lines are key/data pairs. This provides us with a multidimensional array of data. From the data above we can see that... The player with name theotherwhitemeat has ping of 5, 1 frag, been playing for 60 hours 42 minutes 35 minutes, is from ip 127.0.0.1, userid is 846, wonid is 0 (this is a bot), model/class is engineer, team is red, has 1 death. We also know that voting is enabled (1) the map is 2fort and that there are 1537 seconds left on map. This is a single Halfd packet. There are other type messages that COULD be received. ie: lines 8 typeINIT up 1 auth2 nameSpokaneTeamFortress.com #2 ip 216.255.199.157 max 14 port27016 type indicates the kind of data we are reading... Anyone that is familiar with database import can deal with this type of data in any language. Tab Delimited... Players cannot use tabs or newlines in chat messages (in current hlds engine) which also makes this preferable. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- ab. Brian A. Stummd88b. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8PYPY88 http://www.bs-linux.com 8|o||o|88 The Choice of a Gnu Generation8'.88 8`._.' Y8. # d/ `8b. ### .dP . Y8b. ## # d8:' `::88b. ## ### ### ### ### ### ### ### d8 `Y88b ## # ## ### ## #### ## ##
RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Any person who is not trained in the basics of programming (algorithms + data = programs) and how to express them in a computer language is -- by definition -- not a programmer. This is the same distinction made between real hackers and mere script kiddies. The way you say this, you're basically saying that *I* am not a programmer, and am limited to copy and paste. I've never taken a lesson in my life, I've never been trained and I'm willing to bet a LOT of people that could do circles around you haven't either. You can teach yourself to program, but both teacher and student need to be the right kind of person. This was aimed at people who are untrained in the respect of being unable to implement new algorithms in code. You're clearly better than that. Edge has managed to procure some information from insiders at Sony though. Apparently, PlayStation3 will be even more difficult to program than the PlayStation2 was, though according to contacts inside SCB RD, this is partly deliberate, in a bid to eliminate developers who don't have the technical skill to develop for the platform. - p.12, Edge #124 Referring back to the original discussion... Power and flexibility are necessary to give HL2 technically interesting mods. Simplicity and ease of use are clearly secondary. However, a well-documented SDK would be nice, and would make it easier to use this power and flexibility - to those who know what they're doing. Unskilled programmers who don't know what they're doing are basically irrelevant, as they are unlikely to produce anything of importance until they improve - whether with a simplified scripting language or a powerful and well-supported language like C++ or Java. -randomnine- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
[Correction]
This phrase:
(algorithms + data = programs)
Should be:
(algorithms + data structures = programs)
{OLD}Sneaky_Bastard!
Michael A. Hobson
icq:#2186709
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
If you (or ANYONE) belive that C++ is the be all and end all of developement of games then you need to take a reality check, wake up and stop being so blinkered. It's not the be all and all. But it is the base for almost any AAA game. So you can't just shove C/C++ aside without looking back. Anyways, I'm not going to argue this point any more, simply because i've been in your postion, did some reading and researching into scripting systems and realised just how good they are and what you can do with them, and frankly i've had enuff of bashing my head against a brick wall here and i've better things to do (like work and make a living). So, go through life beliving C++ is the best if you like, but if you plan on taking your skills out into the game industry be prepared for a shock and a kick in the teeth when they use other things as well. The thing is that with only a scripting language Half-Life 2 modding will never be as big. The modders basicly need the same access to the game as the developper had, except maybe the core engine (altho there are ways aorund the enige too). Just like the HL SDK works now. With only scripting this is just not feasable. The scripting would be so complex and feature rich that it would be easier to just start coding in binary code :) The key is a combination of scriping and C/C++, just like game developpers use. The creative staff uses the scripting language to create whatever they want in a simple way. If it doesn't support a certain feature, it's added with C/C++. Just like that, the modder would need the same access. If you want to create a 'simple' mod, you can just use the scripting language only. And you're happy it was all so simple to mod HL. On the other hand, if you want to make a real TC, like a rally mod, you just fire up your favorite C/C++ editor next to the script editor and start working... If you need extra power or a new script feature, you just switch ot your C/C++ window, code it there and then continue with the script. This way you have the best of both worlds. And it allows the creative staff of your mod to do a lot of coding for you with the script, while the core coding team concentrates on the bowels of the engine. Jeroen ShadowLord Bogers ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
OMFG MY EMAIL, jesus christ you guys clam DOWN! LOL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony omega Sergi Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 8:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts I'm replying to myself because I just re-read it, it may seem like I have this thing against CS, but I don't. Anyway, more to the point, because of something phantom said about hl being one of the first.. well, no. Quake. I'll bring up quake any day of the week. From what I know/remember, the majority (or at least, a large chunk.. robin with tf, yahn with BSP, steve used to run a quake modding site (he even helped me with some stuff back in the day for quake, thanks steve!) of valve are/were all Quake Modders. It isn't because its written in c/c++ that the mod community is so big; its BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT IT. I've yet to see another retail game where the TEAM sets up a coding mailing list, and other forms of communication to keep community interaction with their project. HL could have had its own variation on QuakeC, and I'm willing to bet it still would have risen to the top. Sure, it may not have lasted AS long, with so many things being recycled, it's the fact that valve has always supported the mod community, being modders themselves that put them to the top. From what I've seen, even if hl2 used a scripting language, I'd STILL mod for it, unlike unreal. I just don't see the support aspect there. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlcoders- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony omega Sergi Sent: May 26, 2003 11:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts No other game has counter-strike, and people wanting to clone it either. No other game has a huge following that thinks CS *IS* the engine, and that they want to mod it. I just felt like throwing this in for no real reason. I'm all for c/c++ over scripting anyway, always have been, however its surely not because of c/c++ that there are so many mods. There are hundreds if not thousands of mods that are by people that don't know how to program anyway, they just want a piece of the hl mod pie, and most of them are CS players. omega Blackened Interactive - http://www.blackened-interactive.com Wavelength - http://www.thewavelength.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. Nothing but double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb launcher weapon mods were created. There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. Sniper - Original Message - From: Phantom [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts - Original Message - From: Michael A. Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:18 PM Subject: RE: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts Persons who are not up to programming in C or C++ are not up to programming at all and are certainly not skilled enough to produce anything but crappy weapons mods. oh, one last thing, this is the most bigoeted, short sighed and childish comment in this whole convasion. Your going to write off the work of everyone who programs in something else other than C or C++ because they are 'not upto it' if they havent needed to learn it? Tell me when you get out into the real world and discover C++ isnt 'all that' :) (btw, i'd be intrested to know just how much of C++ you really do know :) ) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts
And i wonder how many 'crappy weapon mods' have existed for HL and just faded away.. probably no less. btw, most of my comment was directed at the idea that unless you can code in C or C++ you might as well not bother programming at all, which unless you are crazy and an idiot you cant agree with :) - Original Message - From: Sniper [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] c++ vs. scripts Truth hurts, doesn't it. The average game out there IS just a bunch of crappy weapon mods. Take the entire Starsiege: Tribes series for instance. The mod community was built around a scripting engine the game featured. Nothing but double warhammer shotgun flameball thrower plasma bomb launcher weapon mods were created. There are several different examples of why scripting languages usually lead to crappy weapon mods. Too many to list. Sniper ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
