Re: [hlds] File download speeds
In late 2003, Cohen served a short career at Valve Software<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Software>to work on Steam <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29>, their digital distribution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_distribution> system introduced for *Half-Life 2 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_2>*. By 2004, he had left Valve and formed BitTorrent, Inc.<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent,_Inc.>with his brother Ross Cohen<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ross_Cohen&action=edit&redlink=1>and business partner Ashwin Navin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashwin_Navin>. On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Kyle Sanderson wrote: > Back in 03 I believe, I don't think he stayed on the team for long. > > Kyle. > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Kitteny Berk wrote: > > > Didn't Bram Cohen work for valve for a while? > > > > Mike O'Laughlen wrote: > > > Wouldn't it be cool if Steam supported torrents? > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mike Vail > >wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Hey Chris, > > >> > > >> Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical > > shared > > >> hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared > > hosting > > >> company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of > > files > > >> that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are > > on. > > >> Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have > and > > >> will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you > doing > > >> it. > > >> This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these > > shared > > >> boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their > > costs > > >> down. > > >> > > >> I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with > > Hostmonster.com. > > >> After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, > > etc, > > >> they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever > > to > > >> get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose > > >> Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host > > >> files > > >> for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel > me > > >> after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. > > >> > > >> My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we > > get > > >> a > > >> couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly > for > > >> Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton > of > > >> bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files > to > > the > > >> same server box as my games and created my own http download site from > > the > > >> same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a > 3rd > > >> party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier > and > > >> there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, > they > > are > > >> faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the > > downloads > > >> have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. > I > > >> encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing > > this > > >> for over a year without a hitch. > > >> > > >> Take care, > > >> Mike Vail > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -Original Message- > > >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood > Letter > > >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM > > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds > > >> > > >> > > >> Not that I know of, unfortunately. > > >> Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the > > server > > >> - just grab some free/cheap hosting. > > >> If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it > > to > > >> the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdo
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Back in 03 I believe, I don't think he stayed on the team for long. Kyle. On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Kitteny Berk wrote: > Didn't Bram Cohen work for valve for a while? > > Mike O'Laughlen wrote: > > Wouldn't it be cool if Steam supported torrents? > > > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mike Vail >wrote: > > > > > >> Hey Chris, > >> > >> Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical > shared > >> hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared > hosting > >> company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of > files > >> that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are > on. > >> Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have and > >> will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you doing > >> it. > >> This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these > shared > >> boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their > costs > >> down. > >> > >> I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with > Hostmonster.com. > >> After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, > etc, > >> they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever > to > >> get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose > >> Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host > >> files > >> for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel me > >> after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. > >> > >> My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we > get > >> a > >> couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly for > >> Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton of > >> bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files to > the > >> same server box as my games and created my own http download site from > the > >> same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a 3rd > >> party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier and > >> there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, they > are > >> faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the > downloads > >> have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. I > >> encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing > this > >> for over a year without a hitch. > >> > >> Take care, > >> Mike Vail > >> > >> > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM > >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds > >> > >> > >> Not that I know of, unfortunately. > >> Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the > server > >> - just grab some free/cheap hosting. > >> If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it > to > >> the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain > >> (ftp.serverip). > >> > >> > >>> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 > >>> From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au > >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > >>> Subject: [hlds] File download speeds > >>> > >>> Hey all, > >>> > >>> As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on > >>> downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, > >>> from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that > >>> we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm > >>> curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having > >>> to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes > >>> be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> -Chris > >>> > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >>>
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Didn't Bram Cohen work for valve for a while? Mike O'Laughlen wrote: > Wouldn't it be cool if Steam supported torrents? > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mike Vail wrote: > > >> Hey Chris, >> >> Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical shared >> hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared hosting >> company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of files >> that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are on. >> Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have and >> will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you doing >> it. >> This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these shared >> boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their costs >> down. >> >> I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with Hostmonster.com. >> After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, etc, >> they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever to >> get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose >> Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host >> files >> for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel me >> after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. >> >> My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we get >> a >> couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly for >> Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton of >> bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files to the >> same server box as my games and created my own http download site from the >> same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a 3rd >> party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier and >> there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, they are >> faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the downloads >> have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. I >> encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing this >> for over a year without a hitch. >> >> Take care, >> Mike Vail >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds >> >> >> Not that I know of, unfortunately. >> Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the server >> - just grab some free/cheap hosting. >> If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it to >> the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain >> (ftp.serverip). >> >> >>> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 >>> From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au >>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >>> Subject: [hlds] File download speeds >>> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on >>> downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, >>> from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that >>> we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm >>> curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having >>> to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes >>> be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Chris >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> >> please visit: >> >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >> _ >> Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 >> 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/li
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Yeah, until we end up having no/few seeders and tons of leachers... On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Mike O'Laughlen wrote: > Wouldn't it be cool if Steam supported torrents? > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mike Vail wrote: > >> Hey Chris, >> >> Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical shared >> hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared hosting >> company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of files >> that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are on. >> Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have and >> will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you doing >> it. >> This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these shared >> boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their costs >> down. >> >> I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with Hostmonster.com. >> After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, etc, >> they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever to >> get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose >> Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host >> files >> for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel me >> after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. >> >> My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we get >> a >> couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly for >> Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton of >> bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files to the >> same server box as my games and created my own http download site from the >> same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a 3rd >> party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier and >> there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, they are >> faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the downloads >> have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. I >> encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing this >> for over a year without a hitch. >> >> Take care, >> Mike Vail >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter >> Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM >> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds >> >> >> Not that I know of, unfortunately. >> Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the server >> - just grab some free/cheap hosting. >> If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it to >> the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain >> (ftp.serverip). >> >> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 >> > From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au >> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com >> > Subject: [hlds] File download speeds >> > >> > Hey all, >> > >> > As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on >> > downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, >> > from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that >> > we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm >> > curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having >> > to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes >> > be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? >> > >> > Thanks >> > -Chris >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> _ >> Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 >> 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Wouldn't it be cool if Steam supported torrents? On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Mike Vail wrote: > Hey Chris, > > Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical shared > hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared hosting > company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of files > that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are on. > Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have and > will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you doing > it. > This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these shared > boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their costs > down. > > I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with Hostmonster.com. > After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, etc, > they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever to > get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose > Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host > files > for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel me > after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. > > My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we get > a > couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly for > Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton of > bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files to the > same server box as my games and created my own http download site from the > same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a 3rd > party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier and > there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, they are > faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the downloads > have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. I > encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing this > for over a year without a hitch. > > Take care, > Mike Vail > > > > -Original Message- > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds > > > Not that I know of, unfortunately. > Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the server > - just grab some free/cheap hosting. > If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it to > the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain > (ftp.serverip). > > > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 > > From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au > > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > > Subject: [hlds] File download speeds > > > > Hey all, > > > > As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on > > downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, > > from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that > > we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm > > curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having > > to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes > > be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? > > > > Thanks > > -Chris > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _ > Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. > > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 > 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Hey Chris, Something to be aware of with regard to hosting maps on the typical shared hosting services most people use for websites. Nearly every shared hosting company has policies that don't allow you to host large quantities of files that are downloaded frequently and strain the shared servers they are on. Companies typically monitor this stuff with software tools they have and will outright cancel you or limit your bandwidth if they catch you doing it. This is because your downloads will impact the other users on these shared boxes, some of which will server hundreds of websites to keep their costs down. I was unaware of this until I found out he hard way with Hostmonster.com. After they found me sharing hundreds of maps, sounds, player models, etc, they throttled my bandwidth way back and people started taking forever to get their downloads. I spent days searching for a new host and chose Justhost.com after speaking to their Live-chat to confirm I could host files for CSS. They said it would be fine but they too threatened to cancel me after seeing the high volume of downloads I had. My community hosts a couple servers with lots of custom content and we get a couple hundred new players per day that have to download constantly for Gungame. We have our own dedicated Windows 2008 server box with a ton of bandwidth. What I ended up doing was moving all my CSS content files to the same server box as my games and created my own http download site from the same box my games are on using IIS. I no longer need to depend on a 3rd party for my CSS http service, management of my stuff is now easier and there are no limits to what I can host. As far as download speeds, they are faster on my own box than the shared hosting I was using and the downloads have absolutely no affect on the 6 gameservers I'm running on the box. I encourage anyone to try it. It works great for us and I've been doing this for over a year without a hitch. Take care, Mike Vail -Original Message- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Blood Letter Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 7:27 PM To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] File download speeds Not that I know of, unfortunately. Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the server - just grab some free/cheap hosting. If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it to the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain (ftp.serverip). > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 > From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: [hlds] File download speeds > > Hey all, > > As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on > downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, > from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that > we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm > curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having > to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes > be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? > > Thanks > -Chris > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID247 27::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] File download speeds
Not that I know of, unfortunately. Just about any http redirect will be better than serving through the server - just grab some free/cheap hosting. If you own the box, just throw up a free FTP server on it and point it to the same dir as the server itself, and then give it it's own subdomain (ftp.serverip). > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:47:42 +1100 > From: chris_holma...@yahoo.com.au > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: [hlds] File download speeds > > Hey all, > > As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on > downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, > from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that we > can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm curious if > there is a way to get faster download speeds without having to set up a > mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes be bypassed > by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? > > Thanks > -Chris > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] File download speeds
Hey all, As I'm sure we're all aware, by default SRCDS puts a speed limit on downloads when clients are downloading maps, mods, textures, whatever, from the server when they connect. I'm also sure we're all aware that we can use a HTTP/FTP redirect to allow fast downloads, but I'm curious if there is a way to get faster download speeds without having to set up a mirror - ie, can the artificial speed limit srcds imposes be bypassed by, say, a cvar or sourcemod plugin? Thanks -Chris ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
