RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
guys, stop please ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Eric ->(Deacon) ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:43 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21 -> -> ->> You see it as a unit, I'm seeing it as individuals... take bands, for ->> instance: ->> ->> Metallica tell us ->> Genesis tell us ->> SlipKnot tell us -> ->All incorrect. -> ->-- ->Eric (the Deacon remix) -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
Guys, geez! Let's focus on the real problem out there! Ain't! Ain't ain't a work and you ain't gonna use it, say ain't 5 times and you ain't gonna go to heaven!!! And l337? WTF is that? L337 is teh ghey I know we can all be egotistical about server stuff, but gramm0r? (Sigh) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
> You see it as a unit, I'm seeing it as individuals... take bands, for > instance: > > Metallica tell us > Genesis tell us > SlipKnot tell us All incorrect. -- Eric (the Deacon remix) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
> Eh... > > New world, new culture, new jargon, uh ? > > Anyway, stable sounds SO MUCH BETTER, doesn't it ? > > "What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest BETA." > > while > > "What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest STABLE." > > Ok. That's marketing. But - IRL - confuses us a little bit. > Actually, Beta versions TECHNICALLY fix any bugs that are in the 'Stable' release. Usually Beta versions introduce new 'features' as well. However in this instance, they do not (at least, that I'm aware of) Valve's Server-Betas, generally are bug-fixes from the last full release, since introducing any more features, would require a client update as well. I'd stick with running whatever the latest 'beta' is. > > At 08:01 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: > >In HLDS parlance, beta == the version you're expected to run if you want > it > >to work properly. I'm not sure why they don't just eventually upgrade its > >status to 'stable', but usually the actual latest 'stable' version that > you > >_need_ to run is still termed a beta. > > > >-- trog > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/2002 > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] latest security modules
Why are we 'content' with that explanation? Because it works. Mike Miller ICQ:30705948 War Ensemble Online (war-ensemble.com) War Ensemble BBS(telnet://bbs.war-ensemble.com) > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hlds_linux- > [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Capriotti > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:24 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] latest security modules > > Yes. > > Had to restart the HLSD instance. AGAIN ! It happened last time too. > > I think that we are supposed to install the latest beta server to solve > that issue. > > Why is everybody content with that explanation ? > > > > At 07:33 PM 11/21/2002, you wrote: > >There is something definately weird going on since the security modules > were > >updated...I have 3 game instances running on my machine and no-one has > been > >able to connect to the server since they were updated. Has anyone else > been > >experiencing problems?! > > > >Jay. > > > >___ > >To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >please visit: > >http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/2002 > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] memory leak
first I might try the latest beta server 2163. second, try running the server w/o metamod etc for a timeframe that it usually takes to fill up your memory. when was the last time you updated your bsd box? is it possible that could be what has changed? or, a better question, is what has changed since you noticed this memory leak. kev ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 8:21 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] memory leak -> -> ->metamode statsme and linux emulation is 7.1_1 -> ->hlsd is 3.1.1.0 2056 -> ->I'll be installing the latest beta today, maybe. Still have to read the ->instructions and figure it out. -> ->And, it is still happening. so far I have only 98 MB free. -> ->amount of cache and buffer are not increasing, and there is nobody using ->the server... -> -> -> -> ->At 08:43 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: ->>nope. what addons do you have installed? build? linux emulation? ->> ->>->-Original Message- ->>->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->>->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->>->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:26 AM ->>->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->>->Subject: [hlds_linux] memory leak ->>-> ->>-> ->>->Has anyone experienced memory leaks so far ? ->>-> ->>->I explain: Yesterday I installed another 128 MB of ram on a ->server, sonce ->>->it was using off of the RAM I had. ->>-> ->>->In the begining it ran fine with 120 MB of free ram. ->>-> ->>->After 7 hours running HLSD all I had left was about 5 MB or so. ->>-> ->>->I restarted the server, cutting a bit here and there to save ->as muchy RAM ->>->as possible and am back to the 100 MB free RAM. ->>-> ->>->I am still testing it, but would love to know if anyone has ->experienced it ->>->with Linux servers (I run FreeBSD). ->>-> ->>->___ ->>->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->>->archives, please visit: ->>->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ->> ->>___ ->>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, ->>please visit: ->>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] memory leak
metamode statsme and linux emulation is 7.1_1 hlsd is 3.1.1.0 2056 I'll be installing the latest beta today, maybe. Still have to read the instructions and figure it out. And, it is still happening. so far I have only 98 MB free. amount of cache and buffer are not increasing, and there is nobody using the server... At 08:43 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: nope. what addons do you have installed? build? linux emulation? ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:26 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: [hlds_linux] memory leak -> -> ->Has anyone experienced memory leaks so far ? -> ->I explain: Yesterday I installed another 128 MB of ram on a server, sonce ->it was using off of the RAM I had. -> ->In the begining it ran fine with 120 MB of free ram. -> ->After 7 hours running HLSD all I had left was about 5 MB or so. -> ->I restarted the server, cutting a bit here and there to save as muchy RAM ->as possible and am back to the 100 MB free RAM. -> ->I am still testing it, but would love to know if anyone has experienced it ->with Linux servers (I run FreeBSD). -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
Eric (Deacon) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Sorry, but that's complete crap. Go take that in front of any middle > school English teacher and see what they have to say about it. > > "IBM tell us..." > "Microsoft tell us..." > "KFC tell us..." > > That's just so not right :) > Actually they're perfectly correct. Can we drop this thread now? :) -Simon ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: some perspective was RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
It's quite amusing to think that despite what many people think there is only 1 Gaming genre that recieves more support from the game devolopers than Half-Life has seen and that are those who are publishing and running Massive multiplayer games with subscription services. I deeply appriciate the effort Valve has put into Half-Life these past 3 years and their ongoing support to the gaming community. Without it Half-Life would have died a long time ago. So to valve I say SALUT! Great work Valve and I hope this will continue.. ps. I don't know about the rest of you but if Valve publishes a game I'm mildly interesting in I'm buying it. (I normally don't buy games unless I'm very interested) Kveðja / Regards == Guðmundur Örn Ingvarsson Kerfisfræðingur Kerfisþjónusta/UNIX/Security Íslandssími hf Web Site - http://www.islandssimi.is E-Mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Buisness phone - +354 595 5000 == |-+---> | | "Kevin J. Anderson" | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | | Sent by:| | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | oftware.com | | | | | | | | | 22.11.2002 11:41| | | Please respond to hlds_linux| | | | |-+---> >--| | | | To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: some perspective was RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21 | >--| on the contrary, I would imagine they label any release as beta if it is released seperately between major releases, which, amazingly, wait for it, makes sense. I have been using the latest beta servers since they were released, and have not had a single issue. There IS a difference between beta, and UNstable I dont understand the attitudes over meaningless, petty stuff on this list. Valve is getting the job done, and doing everything within reason to take care of issues as they come up. It is not like they can pull everything out of their hats on the drop of a dime. this, unfortunately is the way it is. I dont see any reason to get so worked up over this crap. It only raises your bloodpressure a couple notches, and in the end is meaningless. lets get a grip guys. for example, the vegas issue with people dissapearing in certain places due to map flaws. As someone who knows what they are talking about, this is NOT something that valve can likely fix at the drop of the hat. More likely, it is something that would be needed to be fixed within the map itself. If so, then a fix would only be able to be distributed with a new release, and that if its easily fixable, which, going on my experience with bsp flaws, probably isnt. Therefor, it probably isn't worth it for valve to put a lot of effort into possibly reworking a lot of a map that is hardly even played relatively speaking. And hey, I enjoy vegas, but still, its not worth getting worked up about. If they can fix it, im sure they will, within reason. They have indicated they are aware of the issue, and as far as Im concerned, thats enough. I think that valve has gone above and beyond over the years. Sure, it was in their best interest, but its still way more than 98% of what other game developers have ever bothered to do, best interest or not. kev ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:15 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21 -> -> ->Eh... -> ->New world, new culture, new jargon, uh ? -> ->Anyway, stable sounds SO MUCH BETTER, doesn't it ? -> ->"What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest BETA." -> ->while -> ->"What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest STABLE." -> ->Ok. That's marketing. But - IRL - confuses us a little bit. -> -> ->At 08:01 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: ->>In HLDS parlance, beta == the version you're expected to run if ->you want it ->>to work properly. I'm not sure why they don't just eventually upgrade its
RE: [hlds_linux] memory leak
nope. what addons do you have installed? build? linux emulation? ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:26 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: [hlds_linux] memory leak -> -> ->Has anyone experienced memory leaks so far ? -> ->I explain: Yesterday I installed another 128 MB of ram on a server, sonce ->it was using off of the RAM I had. -> ->In the begining it ran fine with 120 MB of free ram. -> ->After 7 hours running HLSD all I had left was about 5 MB or so. -> ->I restarted the server, cutting a bit here and there to save as muchy RAM ->as possible and am back to the 100 MB free RAM. -> ->I am still testing it, but would love to know if anyone has experienced it ->with Linux servers (I run FreeBSD). -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
some perspective was RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
on the contrary, I would imagine they label any release as beta if it is released seperately between major releases, which, amazingly, wait for it, makes sense. I have been using the latest beta servers since they were released, and have not had a single issue. There IS a difference between beta, and UNstable I dont understand the attitudes over meaningless, petty stuff on this list. Valve is getting the job done, and doing everything within reason to take care of issues as they come up. It is not like they can pull everything out of their hats on the drop of a dime. this, unfortunately is the way it is. I dont see any reason to get so worked up over this crap. It only raises your bloodpressure a couple notches, and in the end is meaningless. lets get a grip guys. for example, the vegas issue with people dissapearing in certain places due to map flaws. As someone who knows what they are talking about, this is NOT something that valve can likely fix at the drop of the hat. More likely, it is something that would be needed to be fixed within the map itself. If so, then a fix would only be able to be distributed with a new release, and that if its easily fixable, which, going on my experience with bsp flaws, probably isnt. Therefor, it probably isn't worth it for valve to put a lot of effort into possibly reworking a lot of a map that is hardly even played relatively speaking. And hey, I enjoy vegas, but still, its not worth getting worked up about. If they can fix it, im sure they will, within reason. They have indicated they are aware of the issue, and as far as Im concerned, thats enough. I think that valve has gone above and beyond over the years. Sure, it was in their best interest, but its still way more than 98% of what other game developers have ever bothered to do, best interest or not. kev ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Capriotti ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 7:15 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21 -> -> ->Eh... -> ->New world, new culture, new jargon, uh ? -> ->Anyway, stable sounds SO MUCH BETTER, doesn't it ? -> ->"What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest BETA." -> ->while -> ->"What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest STABLE." -> ->Ok. That's marketing. But - IRL - confuses us a little bit. -> -> ->At 08:01 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: ->>In HLDS parlance, beta == the version you're expected to run if ->you want it ->>to work properly. I'm not sure why they don't just eventually upgrade its ->>status to 'stable', but usually the actual latest 'stable' ->version that you ->>_need_ to run is still termed a beta. ->> ->>-- trog -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
[hlds_linux] memory leak
Has anyone experienced memory leaks so far ? I explain: Yesterday I installed another 128 MB of ram on a server, sonce it was using off of the RAM I had. In the begining it ran fine with 120 MB of free ram. After 7 hours running HLSD all I had left was about 5 MB or so. I restarted the server, cutting a bit here and there to save as muchy RAM as possible and am back to the 100 MB free RAM. I am still testing it, but would love to know if anyone has experienced it with Linux servers (I run FreeBSD). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
Eh... New world, new culture, new jargon, uh ? Anyway, stable sounds SO MUCH BETTER, doesn't it ? "What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest BETA." while "What server are you running ?", "Oh, I am running the latest STABLE." Ok. That's marketing. But - IRL - confuses us a little bit. At 08:01 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: In HLDS parlance, beta == the version you're expected to run if you want it to work properly. I'm not sure why they don't just eventually upgrade its status to 'stable', but usually the actual latest 'stable' version that you _need_ to run is still termed a beta. -- trog ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
In HLDS parlance, beta == the version you're expected to run if you want it to work properly. I'm not sure why they don't just eventually upgrade its status to 'stable', but usually the actual latest 'stable' version that you _need_ to run is still termed a beta. -- trog - Original Message - From: "Capriotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:19 PM Subject: RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21 > Second time I hear this remark. > > Only ONE thought here : BETA is not -STABLE, and it may contain bugs and > instabilities. Whenever a BETA is considered good, then it should become > the new stable, superseding the previous stable. It sounds to be it is not > exactly the way it works here. (okokok... This is BSD philosophy). > > I'd rather have something considered stable on my box - which SHOULD BE > something known good - than having something considered "work in progress; > mind your head !". > > I am reluctant to install this beta server. Additionally, in the past, all > the username/password to beta FTP I've found on the archives were invalid. > > Another comment: When I got back to my server, after a day being away, I > found the server empty. Strange... Then I decided to play a bit and started > my connection. Surprise, surprise... the old and good error (bad character > from client or something) was happening once again ! I did not even need to > go check my mail to know that a new security patch was released. > > > > > At 07:28 PM 11/21/2002, you wrote: > >Linux server? > > > >Download the latest beta server, the link is somewhere in the list > >archives. > > > >Otherwise, restart the server. > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] latest security modules
Yes. Had to restart the HLSD instance. AGAIN ! It happened last time too. I think that we are supposed to install the latest beta server to solve that issue. Why is everybody content with that explanation ? At 07:33 PM 11/21/2002, you wrote: There is something definately weird going on since the security modules were updated...I have 3 game instances running on my machine and no-one has been able to connect to the server since they were updated. Has anyone else been experiencing problems?! Jay. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
I don't agree. We, as admins, have to let them know what is a major problem/desire. (specially the aimbots issue; it's annoying). In the modern industry this is called priority based on customer feedback. Without customer feedback companies use to do nasty and stupid things. Please, keep sending your comments. DO NOT shut up. At 07:42 PM 11/21/2002, you wrote: > Valve tell us what we need to know, deal with it. Valve *tells* us what we need to know, leave them in peace and they will get there faster. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] [OT] Client issues with bullets hitting snow.
Why don't you just create a WAV file with anything in it and install it ? At least you'll solve the script error problem. At 04:37 AM 11/22/2002, you wrote: map? ->-Original Message- ->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of PyroGx1133 ->Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:29 AM ->To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ->Subject: [hlds_linux] [OT] Client issues with bullets hitting snow. -> -> ->Hi, -> ->I 100% sure that this is the wrong place to post this, but I have no clue ->where else to post it where Valve will read it. -> ->Basically whenever you have the snow texture and shoot at it, you ->get these ->error messages in your console: -> ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow3.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow3.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow2.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow2.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow1.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow1.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow4.wav ->S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /debris/pl_snow4.wav -> ->I'm just wondering if the next update can fix this. I use echoes in my ->scripts and these mess everything up. -> -> -PyroGx1133 -> -> ->___ ->To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list ->archives, please visit: ->http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] New Security Modules -November 21
Second time I hear this remark. Only ONE thought here : BETA is not -STABLE, and it may contain bugs and instabilities. Whenever a BETA is considered good, then it should become the new stable, superseding the previous stable. It sounds to be it is not exactly the way it works here. (okokok... This is BSD philosophy). I'd rather have something considered stable on my box - which SHOULD BE something known good - than having something considered "work in progress; mind your head !". I am reluctant to install this beta server. Additionally, in the past, all the username/password to beta FTP I've found on the archives were invalid. Another comment: When I got back to my server, after a day being away, I found the server empty. Strange... Then I decided to play a bit and started my connection. Surprise, surprise... the old and good error (bad character from client or something) was happening once again ! I did not even need to go check my mail to know that a new security patch was released. At 07:28 PM 11/21/2002, you wrote: Linux server? Download the latest beta server, the link is somewhere in the list archives. Otherwise, restart the server. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
[hlds_linux] Re: hlds_linux digest, Vol 1 #1615 - 16 msgs
Fools! There is no way "tell" makes sense in that sentence. Suck it up. Eric has L337 GR4MM4RZ!! The technical reason it should be "tells" is because a "group" is actually singular. It's counter-intuitive but true! If the subject of a sentence is a single group then the subject is considered singular. So you may say: "They tell" But you would also say: "The group tells..." If you disagree, be consistent... Ford make cars. The football team score points. My family eat chicken. The clan play games. Jim __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
