[Hornlist] Conn 8D help, please
I decided that it was time to sell my Conn 8D horn, made in 1969, I believe in Elkhart. I only played it while in college 1970-1974, with very few sporadic playings since then. The horn is in excellent condition with the usual student dings and a small crease in the bell. A local hornist agreed to check the horn out and see if any local students might be interested in purchasing it. Today he called to say he'd like to have the horn for himself, but neither of us has any real idea of pricing. I've seen some online ads at HornsAPlenty and the IHS. Can anyone out there give me an idea of what I should ask? I don't want to make a killing, but I'd like to be fair and get a decent return on what was a huge investment in 1970. Thanks for your help! Donna Charleston SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Better than a BERP
Scottito offered this Better than a berp is a score of the piece you are playing (or just a good ear). ** Good advice, Scottie! A score makes a swell substitute for a BERP. What you do is you roll the score up so that it makes a long tube whose inner diameter matches that of your mouthpiece. Then just tootle on that until you're ready for your big entrance. And if you forgot the score, not to worry, just borrow the second horn part. It's a lot easier to roll up than the full score (especially for a big piece like Bruckner's Fourth), and it's lighter, too. I'm not so sure how valuable a good ear is, however. Most second hornists I know object when I try buzzing my lips in their ears before my big solo. Gotta go, Cabbage ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Mouthpiece Buzzing
Hi Scott Hartman all. Responding to: Speaking of Richard Burdick, he recently advocated no mouthpiece buzzing in a mail to this group, and I think he's said this before so must feel pretty decisive about this. Why is this, Richard? Okay. I think everybody should be able to buzz on the mouthpiece and without the mouthpiece but then dont do it, unless you have a really bad cold. Try this exercise: Buzz on the mouthpiece then play a long note in the middle range and listen to the tone quality. Then do some of Brophys pitch bending exercises that will help open up your aperture. The easiest excecise is play the F below middle C on the Bb horn and bend it slowly down to E and back, then down to Eb and back, to D and try for Db C. THEN try the same long note in the middle range and listen to the tone quality. The relaxation that has occurred from the pitch bending translates into a better sound quality for me! The buzzing tightens and decreases my endurance sound quality. But I love a good buzz in a trombone sound. Richard Burdick 1st Horn Regina Symphony Orchestra in Snowy Regina Saskatchewan Canada P. S. Theladers Beethovens score: 1 hate 2 likes. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Better than a BERP
Cabbage crucifered this: Most second hornists I know object when I try buzzing my lips in their ears before my big solo. That's just cuz you got a moustache... scottito ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conn 8D help, please
Check the prices for 8Ds on ebay. I find ebay to be pretty definitive regarding used prices. The big difference in 8D prices is often determined by when and where they were made. Lars Kirsmer has this to say: Note: From 1987 on, the two-digit prefix number plus 50 will give you the year of manufacture on all Conn products. Also, the serial numbers from 1981 - 1987 for the Brasswinds, are for student trumpets and cornets only. Data for the years 1967 to March 1974 is rather sketchy, for it was around that period of time that the Conn Brasswinds were being manufactured in Abilene, TX. Instruments made during that period of time are not likely to be their best examples, as the workers were still relatively new at the manufacturing game. According to this, your 1969 horn should have been made in Texas. Unless it specifically says 'Elkhart' on the bell, it isn't, but I've heard of 'M' and 'N' series horns claimed to be Elkhart. The way to tell is to pull a rotor and see if it is tapered. If it's tapered, it's 'Elkhart'. The Texas valves were made with no taper. The valves wear very quickly, and wear in an elliptical pattern that makes them very difficult to rebuild because the casings aren't round. Your horn hasn't seen much use, so the valves are probably still tight. For a non-professional player who is meticulous to keep the valves clean and well lubricated, the valves may never be a problem, especially if the bearings are swaged tight periodically to perfectly center the rotors. There is no reason the Texas horns should play worse than the Elkhart horns, because the parts used to assemble them are identical in shape. However, the inexperienced solderers in Texas often did a poor enough job that the fine quality of the horn is badly compromised. I'm a champion of the Reynolds horns, and poor soldering caused many of their Abilene horns to play below standard. Reaming the solder joints to the full .468 bore result in a spectacular improvement. I have never checked an Abilene 8D, but they were using the same labor pool. McMaster-Carr sells a very clever adjustable blade hand reamer that makes quick work of opening up the joints on all the slides. As far as fair prices go, the Texas 8Ds seem to run between $900-$1200 with tight valves. Factor in getting the bearings tightened right now, and probably every year or two, depending on how much playing you do. The job is fairly simple with the right tools, and the tools cost about $100. The Elkhart 8Ds seem to go for $1800-$2200 on ebay. I've seen them offered for much higher prices, but those prices are from a reputable shop for a horn that has been thoroughly set up, usually with a pedigree of serious professional usage. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conn 8D help, please
Bill, You have made a very informative post. One open question, however, is when Conn actually started making horns in Abilene. There were also parts made in Elkhart that were assembled in Abilene and while this is only an opinion, I suspect that there might even be a few horns marked Elkhart that were actually assembled in Texas (again, not fact, only opinion). The plus 50 rule in determining the manufacture of Eastlake Conns doesn't always hold true, either. There are those that accuse Conn of purposely trying to obscure serial numbers so that it becomes difficult to ascertain date. Whether you believe that is accidental or by design has a lot to do with how paranoid you happen to feel at the minute. A tapered rotor is a good way to see if it is an Elkhart horn, however, don't exclude the possibility that it was assembled in Abilene from parts. Metallurgy formula changed with Abilene horns. Although their are regional differences, and condition is everything, I am inclined to believe that anywhere from $1500 to $1800 (U.S.) would be a very fair price for the horn in question...that might even be a tad low depending on how well the horn plays. caveat lector, Mark L. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Jazz Hornists: Robert Routch
I was listening to KCSM this morning and heard that Robert Routch is going to be playing somewhere in the Bay Area. A quick google search showed no performance dates, but did show him as a faculty member at KBHC (Kendall Betts Horn Camp). He is apparently quite the player: replaced Tuckwell at the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center and has performed with Mingus and Marsalis, among others. Add him to the list. Sean ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Jazz Hornists
Jazzer? Well, anyway, Chris is a great player. I haven't seen him in so long I forgot to put him on my list when I posted. I'd be very interested to see a copy of that dissertation also. Sounds quite interesting. By the way, sorry for my entire sig file posting last time. I meant to delete it but pressed send first. Yikes! Mark http://www.mark-taylor.biz On 10/20/04 1:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 2 date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:22:43 -0700 from: Scott Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] Jazz Hornists Hi all, If you have never heard of Chris Komer, you will. He's 3rd in the New Jersey Symphony and an incredible jazzer. scottito message: 10 date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:48:52 -0500 from: Ellen Manthe [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 22, Issue 20 I had already had the title - followed by a colon and the following phrase An Examination of Solo Jazz Horn at the Millennium when I discovered Mr. Peel's album, which is cited in my dissertation. I remember checking for copyright violations, and I found there were none at the time. I have quite a bit of correspondence verifying this. The word color refers to the sociological implications in the development of jazz horn as well as to the timbre of the tones of the various soloists. Ellen ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Las Vegas IHS
All. A crosspost. Have not completed catch up on backlog of digests. Sooo. Forgive if subject has been addressed. Johannes Finke will be at the Las Vegas workshop displaying some of his excellent Horns. Agent Loren Mayhew will be there with him. Do try out whatever is displayed. You'll be surprised at the superb quality reasonable price. Also, for you BIG Horn aficionados. Just received newsletter from Willson. They will be displaying their brand new Kruspe style model, the CS265 USA Model Horn. Looking at the BW pic it appears that the valve-slide layout is a la 8D. However, the flare throat bell diameters appear larger than the 8D. Also, the one in the pic looks like a NS. Wish I had not spent the $ for my NOV GER trip including being hosted by the Finkes'. However, like a kid allergic to chocolate at the Hershey factory, what good would it do me? I emphatically urge those that can, to attend the regional IHS workshop. For those considering, shopping for, or needing a Horn upgrade, you couldn't do better. Enough. Take care. GN NAPUDA ASSOC. Pennsville NJ, G Napuda-owner Management, Technical TQM Consulting ENGINEERING: ANS,ASQ,DOD,DOE,NRC,IAEA nat'l-intn'l Power Plant Utilities MUSIC: AFM (Life Member),IHS (NJ Rep),US Army, Grade School-College, Freelance ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Willson
All. Another crosspost. My excuse? As we progress through our senior years, 3 things happen. Its just that I can't remember them right now. The brand new Willson Kruspe model CS265 USA will also be displayed during the SE Horn Conference @ NC School of the Arts in Winston-Salem 2/05. Take care. GN NAPUDA ASSOC. Pennsville NJ, G Napuda-owner Management, Technical TQM Consulting ENGINEERING: ANS,ASQ,DOD,DOE,NRC,IAEA nat'l-intn'l Power Plant Utilities MUSIC: AFM (Life Member),IHS (NJ Rep),US Army, Grade School-College, Freelance ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conn 8D help, please
In a message dated 10/20/2004 3:19:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill, You have made a very informative post. One open question, however, is when Conn actually started making horns in Abilene. There were also parts made in Elkhart that were assembled in Abilene and while this is only an opinion, I suspect that there might even be a few horns marked Elkhart that were actually assembled in Texas (again, not fact, only opinion). The plus 50 rule in determining the manufacture of Eastlake Conns doesn't always hold true, either. There are those that accuse Conn of purposely trying to obscure serial numbers so that it becomes difficult to ascertain date. Whether you believe that is accidental or by design has a lot to do with how paranoid you happen to feel at the minute. A tapered rotor is a good way to see if it is an Elkhart horn, however, don't exclude the possibility that it was assembled in Abilene from parts. Metallurgy formula changed with Abilene horns. Although their are regional differences, and condition is everything, I am inclined to believe that anywhere from $1500 to $1800 (U.S.) would be a very fair price for the horn in question...that might even be a tad low depending on how well the horn plays. caveat lector, Mark L. Hi Mark, Bill, et al, The Elkhart plant closed about August of 1972, TTBOMK. Some of the first Texas horns were, indeed, made with some parts manufactured in Elkhart. Horns were assembled in Texas from that time on starting with some parts that were left over from Elkhart. However, I believe no Texas horns were assembled with Elkhart on the bell. Tapered rotors don't guarantee it's an Elkhart horn. I have an R series horn that was assembled/mfgd in Texas, is all original and has tapered rotors but no Elkhart on the bell. The horns were, as you mentioned, assembled by inexperienced craftsmen and some of the first Texas horns are easy to spot because of the errors in tubing alignment. BTW, I believe the Texas plant closed around 1986. The entire horn has to be evaluated to determine if it was, in fact , assembled/mfgd in Texas. I believe the R series horns were the crossover horns and all serial numbers after that are Texas horns. The 6 digit numbers (319,xxx for instance) were repeated for a while in Texas which has been a point of confusion for those who don't know the other changes that indicate a probable Texas horn. Other changes were tapers, metallurgy, pull rings, bell engraving, non-tapered rotors on new valve clusters, etc. It was mentioned that the Texas casings were cylindrical and wore quickly to oval shape and were difficult to rebuild. This was my understanding until I had a conversation with E. Schmid. The Engelbert Schmid horns have cylindrical rotors. He indicated that the cylindrical rotors wear at the same rate as tapered rotors and that it is easier to rebuild a cylinder than a taper. He said that if the rotors/casings are made with precision and from the best materials, they will last long regardless of taper. He said that if a horn needs a rotor rebuild, he simply bores the casing to an oversize and laps in a new oversized rotor ... faster and cheaper. I would be interested to hear from knowledgeable folks if their experience differs. The bearings are another story. It was indicated that the Texas horns are identical in shape to the Elkhart horns. The taper of the leadpipe depends on where the worker cut the pipe from the mandrel. The tuning depends on, among other things, how long the bent parts of the tuning slides are made, etc. Cold solder joints, loose braces, internal solder blobs, air leaks, loose tolerances ... there is an endless list of ways a careless worker can ruin a horn that has great potential. Prices?? Check hornplayer.net for asking prices. Check eBay completed auctions for selling prices keeping in mind that the sold prices are for horns that are sight unseen and unplayed. The truth is somewhere in between for horns with provenance or for horns that are known to be good players. I have seen the Conn 8D sell for $500 up to $6,000. Disclaimer: The above ramblings are a distillation of many readings and conversations with pros, repair folks, horn mfgrs, and folks who worked at the Elkhart plant. I collect horns and have gone through a number of 8Ds dating from 1937 through the present so some of the above is from personal experience. As always your mileage may vary ... if so ... please share with the list. Regards,Jerry Old in Kansas City. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 22, Issue 21
Jim, I have been using a BERP fairly extensively for three years now, and I can tell you from experience this is not what it was designed to do. A BERP isn't designed to be silent or to be like a practice mute--all it does is mimic the resistence of a horn, and therefore make buzzing feel more like truly playing. The sound is exactly the same as if you were to hold the mouthpiece in your hand and buzz like normal--if you play through one while you're supposed to be resting, even the stupidest and deafest of the musicians in the front row would notice. BERP's are nice for warmups and occasionally for mouthpiece work during practice, but should be a tool, not a crutch. If you seriously are having issues playing after a long rest, I would suggest playing (VERY softly) a note in the chord a few measures before you come in to get your lips going again, as has already been suggested. Meagan Roby -- message: 3 date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:34:35 -0700 from: jim thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] BERP in helping smooth out entrances We've all seen these BERP's for sale for ~$20. But what do they really do for you? Here's what I'd like it to do for me. I'd like it to occupy a mouthpiece right off the leadpipe right beside my 'main' mpc in my horn which I think it was designed to do so, so far no problem. Before coming in on let's say a high A after 60 measures of adagio rest, at measure 55 or so of that I'd like to tie into the 'BERP' and so to speak 'warm up' on the auxillary mpc with the BERP for the next few measures before the actual entrance comes about. Will a BERP do that?I know I'm not alone in that entrances are always easier if you've been continually playing, but give it 5 or 10 minutes rest with the horn on your lap, anxiety build up and all of a sudden you're saddled at picking out a note out of the stratisphere?. it can be a bit 'touchy'. Jim -- ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
