RE: [Hornlist] Re: Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement
Hello Graeme, you are absolutely right. These purists, t,tsss, tsss Mostly people, who just know things but cannot do it themselves , tsss, tsss, tss ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Evans Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 12:52 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement Richard, Have you ever performed the unaltered version of the Schumann Konzertstueck for 4 horns? If you had attempted to, you would realise how impractical this is, with far too much of the burden falling on the 1st horn. You can be assured that everyone who plays this piece re-arranges it somewhat so that (usually) the 2nd horn gets some of the melodic material. The AHQ version gives the 3rd and 4th horns the bulk of the slow movement, so relieving the 1st pair. This is all sensible, and does not change the totality of the music in any way at all. To say: > If your orchestra wants to play the piece but your first hornist can't > handle it, maybe they should do Schumann's version for Piano and > orchestra! is ridiculous, and makes me think you are confusing this work with another. Clearly you have little knowledge of the Konzertstueck for 4 horns! Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement
Richard, Have you ever performed the unaltered version of the Schumann Konzertstueck for 4 horns? If you had attempted to, you would realise how impractical this is, with far too much of the burden falling on the 1st horn. You can be assured that everyone who plays this piece re-arranges it somewhat so that (usually) the 2nd horn gets some of the melodic material. The AHQ version gives the 3rd and 4th horns the bulk of the slow movement, so relieving the 1st pair. This is all sensible, and does not change the totality of the music in any way at all. To say: If your orchestra wants to play the piece but your first hornist can't handle it, maybe they should do Schumann's version for Piano and orchestra! is ridiculous, and makes me think you are confusing this work with another. Clearly you have little knowledge of the Konzertstueck for 4 horns! Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Richard Strauss
You go, John! You're starting to sound like Professor Pizka (hint, hint to the original poster of this message...) By the way...what's a book? Gary = Get Firefox! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement
In a message dated 2/25/2005 2:12:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can someone please tell me what arrangement of the Schumann Konzertstuck is the newer version whereby the parts are more equally divided amongst each of the 4 horns rather than the original that leans quite heavily on the 1st horn. I believe the choices would be either the 1) IMC, 2) Breitkopf or 3) arr.Thompson. Thanks, Jim ___ Hi Jim, I have the American Horn Quartet version arranged by Kerry Turner. He has included details from the March 1849 original manuscript (not for the faint of heart). No one gets a free ride in this version, however, there are 2-3 optional versions included in the parts in key places where the players are given the option of going for either the high E, high B or the more sane F#. The 4th horn goes down to a low G# and up to an F# in the staff ... lots of pp, ff and sf in the basement ... it was written for Charlie Putnam . need I say more?? The 1st and 2nd horns are offered the opportunity to play high C, D and E in several places. The 3rd horn plays a bunch but seldom goes above the staff and then only to A. Put your slacker on this part. LOL This version was used here in Kansas City a few years ago with respectable results no one got hurt ... all survived with only minor contusions and abrasions. The parts are available for USD 20.00 at _www.hornquartet.com_ (http://www.hornquartet.com) . Regards, Jerry in Kansas City ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement
The Kozertstuck is best as Schumann wrote it! There is plenty of other good music that could be transcribed or arranged for 4 horns and orchestra. Why are people wasting there time trying to improve Schumann? If your orchestra wants to play the piece but your first hornist can't handle it, maybe they should do Schumann's version for Piano and orchestra! Richard Burdick message: 6 date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:12:59 -0800 from: " Jim Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement Can someone please tell me what arrangement of the Schumann Konzertstuck is the newer version whereby the parts are more equally divided amongst each of the 4 horns rather than the original that leans quite heavily on the 1st horn. I believe the choices would be either the 1) IMC, 2) Breitkopf or 3 ) arr.Thompson. Thanks, Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Richard Strauss
Nick, why dont you just have a look into Google. Look for Richard Strauss & Richard Strauss Society. One question: if you are doing an essay about this important composer, how comes that you are even unsure how to spell his name ? Have you ever thought about what NEGLIGENCE means ? Is the memory programmed for an extreme short time as not to remember the spelling of a simple name, as the discussion was just few days ago ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick R Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 7:07 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Richard Strauss Sorry for the double post. I'm doing a short essay about Richard Strauss. If anyone can lead me to any information about his life or music, or can send me any information about him, please email me off-list. As well, there was recently a discussion about the spelling of his name. Am I correctly spelling it, or should I be using that German SS thing? I don't know the syntax of its use or the name of it. Sorry to all Germans on the list. Thank you! NR - Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
Actually, that reminded me of another Schmidt question. I have 2 single F horns marked "J Schmidt" in a script very similar to the usual "CF Schmidt". One is marked CSR, the other, only 21 serial numbers later is marked "made in Germany". Has anybody heard of this maker? It's not mentioned in the Langwill dictionary. Both were imported to the US by Gaetz Music House in Columbus. They are a spittin' image of the earlier King single Fs including layout, style and placement of braces, figerhooks etc but are definitely not made by King. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed
In a message dated 2/25/05 1:00:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hans Pizka writes: > Rampone & Cazzani and Cazzani alone made a lot of these > horns, but they are of quite a wide bore, while the original > Schmidt before 1928 (the really superb horns) had the same > bore as the Viennese horns (10.8 mms inside diameter - I > proved that by inserting the Vienna Horns tuning slide into > the tuning slide shafts of the Schmidt.) The later Schmidt > horns had a bit wider bore. Anyway, a Schmidt horn is not > always that what you might expect even in best condition. > Some are superb, some less good, some terrible. So be > cautious. Hans, do you know the dates of when Schmidts were labeled "Berlin" or "Berlin frueher Weimar"? I had heard that those were made before 1920, but all of those I've seen had a bore of 11.9mm. Carl Fischer was the Amerikan (sic) and Canadian importer of those. I do have a Schmidt model horn labeled only Carl Fischer that has the smaller bore and it looks identical in every way to the real Schmidt except that the rotary valves are different. Unfortunately a couple of the rotors are missing so no telling how it plays. Interestingly, after Schmidt went to the larger bore size, the piston valve still stayed at the smaller bore. I'd call it closer to 11.12mm than 10.8 but, depending on the wall thickness of the tubing, that could still fit into the Viennese horn. In American we'd call it .438 (10.8 = .425). I also have a pre 1900 Kruspe that has that bore size. Okay, I'll stop rambling now - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Schumann Konzertstuck
The most evenly divided version I've found has been the American Horn Quartet version. The Michael Thompson version gives some relief to the first horn, but not much. John Schreckengost Chicago, IL date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:12:59 -0800 from: " Jim Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: [Hornlist] Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement Can someone please tell me what arrangement of the Schumann Konzertstuck is= the newer version whereby the parts are more equally divided amongst each = of the 4 horns rather than the original that leans quite heavily on the 1st= horn. I believe the choices would be either the 1) IMC, 2) Breitkopf or 3= ) arr.Thompson. Thanks, Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Richard Strauss
I'm doing a short essay about Richard Strauss. If anyone can lead me to any information about his life or music. You mean the Richard Strauss that is one of the most important composers of the 20c? The one that is in EVERY music history book and EVERY music dictionary? The one whose compositions are performed nearly every day somewhere? Come on now. Obviously you haven't even tried to do any research-not even a little. Crack a book. School is where you learn how to find the answers, not have every thing handed to you. The Jack Attack! +++ I just looked in my 1972 Colliers Encyclopedia (not a music reference) and found a lengthy citation for Richard Strauss as well. FWIW ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Richard Strauss
I'm doing a short essay about Richard Strauss. If anyone can lead me to any information about his life or music. You mean the Richard Strauss that is one of the most important composers of the 20c? The one that is in EVERY music history book and EVERY music dictionary? The one whose compositions are performed nearly every day somewhere? Come on now. Obviously you haven't even tried to do any research-not even a little. Crack a book. School is where you learn how to find the answers, not have every thing handed to you. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Richard Strauss
Sorry for the double post. I'm doing a short essay about Richard Strauss. If anyone can lead me to any information about his life or music, or can send me any information about him, please email me off-list. As well, there was recently a discussion about the spelling of his name. Am I correctly spelling it, or should I be using that German SS thing? I don't know the syntax of its use or the name of it. Sorry to all Germans on the list. Thank you! NR - Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
Rampone & Cazzani and Cazzani alone made a lot of these horns, but they are of quite a wide bore, while the original Schmidt before 1928 (the really superb horns) had the same bore as the Viennese horns (10.8 mms inside diameter - I proved that by inserting the Vienna Horns tuning slide into the tuning slide shafts of the Schmidt.) The later Schmidt horns had a bit wider bore. Anyway, a Schmidt horn is not always that what you might expect even in best condition. Some are superb, some less good, some terrible. So be cautious. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
On the mystery eBay Schmidt-style horn that got this discussion going, the 1-2-3 valve lever tips look somewhat pointed rather than mainly rounded. Isn't that distinctive lever shape another indication that the horn comes from the workshops of Italy? (And wouldn't it be a good reason for installing silver coins on the levers?) -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~~ At 10:17 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote: If I'm not mistaken, this looks like one those Italian made stencil horns imported for Carl Fischer. The 3rd valve wrap on the F side is a dead give away, in addition to the socket braces on the bell. These horns often have nickel plated mechanical levers, machined mouthpiece receivers, and VERY HEAVY bells. If you would like an affordable "Schmidt" style horn, then it seams to me to be priced about right. It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Repairing since 1977 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
> If you would like an affordable "Schmidt" style horn, > then it seems to me to be priced about right Ahh, the "Italian" connection again. One lister wrote that he didn't know much about this particular horn, but that all the little hardware pieces looked like what he'd seen in the past on Italian "stencil" type horns. *** > It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt Thanks Jim, that's what I was after. I've seen a half-dozen or so over the years, but don't know enough about Schmidts to *positively* I.D. them across all decades they were made. I think I'll just let this one stay right where it is. jrc ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
If I'm not mistaken, this looks like one those Italian made stencil horns imported for Carl Fischer. The 3rd valve wrap on the F side is a dead give away, in addition to the socket braces on the bell. These horns often have nickel plated mechanical levers, machined mouthpiece receivers, and VERY HEAVY bells. If you would like an affordable "Schmidt" style horn, then it seams to me to be priced about right. It certainly is not a genuine C.F. Schmidt. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Repairing since 1977 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
I think that Paul is most probably correct. Carl Fischer imported a number of stencil horns from Italy in addition to horns that were produced for them by York (Carl Fischer eventually acquired the plant in Michigan) who produced a Schmidt model but that was more faithful in appearance to the original C.F. Schmidts. Mark L. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed...
First of all, the seller does not claim this horn to be an original C.F.Schmidt but rather calls it a "Schmidt model". My "genuine" C.F.Schmidt has mechanical valve linkages...done sometime before I purchased the horn almost 40 years ago. The details which I immediately noticed were: The 3rd valve F side slide, The leadpipealthough mine was replaced over 30 years ago it is still the original pattern, The apparent lack of NS trim on valve caps and ferrules, The braces on the leadpipe and bell (which seems to be of a pattern used on a lot of Italian imports), The brace from the F tuning slide to the corpus, My F tuning slide is also located closer to the bell. I believe that Kalison still lists a Schmidt model in their (extensive) catalogue of horns. Perhaps this could be related in some way. Paul - Original Message - From: "Ray & Sonja Crenshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:58 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Schmidt Advice Needed... > If you know anything about Schmidt horns (the old piston thumb-valve models from Germany), > then I would ask that you go here: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16215&item=7302616771 &rd=1 > > ...and take a look at this "Schmidt model" horn listed on E-bay. > > The seller has good feedback (meaning people have been happy with his auctions), but there > are a few red flags that pop up with this horn. The seller just MIGHT BE playing things a > bit coy on ID'ing this horn. I used to have a Schmidt, and have played and/or seen a total > of about FIVE of them, NONE of which looked like this horn. The tubing and layout is VERY > close, but, for me, none of the detail bits and pieces ring true. > > I'm aware that many "Schmidt-like" horns have been made over the years; Conn had one and > so did, I'm told, many other manufacturers. However, I'm not enough of an old horn expert > to tell if this E-bay horn is simply a later model genuine Schmidt, or a pattern copy. > > For me, several red flags pop up on this horn. They are, > > MECHANICAL ROTARY VALVE LINKAGE: > Perhaps they came this way, but none I've seen were so-equipped. > > LEADPIPE SHAPE: > Starting at the mouthpiece, the leadpipe on the E-bay horn follows the curve of the > bell-section (normal), but then, after only a short distance, it suddenly makes a turn > across the middle of the horn, like a Holton or Conn leadpipe does. This is UNLIKE any of > the 4-or-5 Schmidts I've seen before. On all the others, the leadpipe continues to follow > the curve of the bell-section until THE VERY BOTTOM of the horn (as the player holds it), > then turns upward and heads toward the main tuning slide. Or at least that's the way I > remember things. > > LEADPIPE LENGTH: > This Schmidt has a SHORTER leadpipe than the others I've seen, prompting the question, "Is > this a Schmidt at all?" > > 3rd VALVE SLIDE ON F-SIDE: > All the Schmidts I've seen used the common "3rd-valve-swan's-neck-swoop," on the F-side, > and ONLY THE Bb slide was a simple 6-piece patchwork of 2-curves and 4-straight pieces. > The E-bay horn has both 3rd valve slides of the 6-piece construction. > > VALVE LEVERS, BRACES, VALVE CAPS, ETC: > All unfamiliar to me. I have my father-in-law's Schmidt single-F, which is a later model; > born after WWII. Even so, most all the little widgets and details are very much like my > old "between-the-wars" Schmidt double. But this horn has none of these familiar pieces. > > Also, if it's NOT a genuine Schmidt, then what-the-howdy is it? The "Carl Fischer" > inscription on the bell appears on many true Schmidts and, as I understand it, ID's them > as post WWII models, imported by Fischer. Perhaps Fischer also had his own "Schmidts" > made? > > If not a true Schmidt, how good a horn would this one be? > > What say ye? > > jrc in SC > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lotp%40comcast.net > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Schumann Konzertstuck - newer arrangement
Can someone please tell me what arrangement of the Schumann Konzertstuck is the newer version whereby the parts are more equally divided amongst each of the 4 horns rather than the original that leans quite heavily on the 1st horn. I believe the choices would be either the 1) IMC, 2) Breitkopf or 3) arr.Thompson. Thanks, Jim ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
