Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky che ckbook?
In a message dated 1/9/06 12:20:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I have saved many clients the necessity of having their valves replated > using > this method and it (again, if done correctly), works very well. > > I would like to add to this post that this process is not one of just shrinking the bearings.It involves shrinking the bearings and refitting the upper bearing plate. It is not a new one. or one that I developed myself. Carl geyer used it frequently, and I learned it from him while I was apprenticing with him in the late 60's and early 70's. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago(ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky che ckbook?
In a message dated 1/8/06 6:20:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Several posters to this list have claimed that you can improve the air seal > of a horn by removing the end play, causing the valve to seat lower in the > casing. Because the valves are tapered, seating the rotor lower will cause > the side wall to move closer to the casing. That's the theory. > > Hi Bob, Actually, this is not the theory. Tightening the bearings does not move the valve lower in the casing. What it does, if done properly, is brings the top bearing plate down closer to the valve rotor. This keeps the rotor from moving out towards the bearing plate when the valve is depressed. When a valve is depressed the physics of the movement pushes the valve rotor up against the top bearing plate. Over time wear takes place on these upper bearing surfaces. Once this wear starts to accumulate, a very small space occurs between the rotor and the upper bearing when the valve is at rest. When the valve is depressed, the rotor moves forward towards and then contacts the upper bearing plate (this contact is sometimes heard as clicking). Since the valve is tapered, and since it has now moved forward because of the wear, there is now more space between the sides of the valve rotor and the sides of the valve casing than there was when the valve was at rest. This space is where the valve compression is lost. A very minute space can be felt and heard by a discerning performer as a fuzziness in the tone and degraded response. The basic correction is not to move the valve rotor lower in the casing. It is to keep the valve rotor from moving forward when it the valve lever is depressed. I have saved many clients the necessity of having their valves replated using this method and it (again, if done correctly), works very well. I might add that the wear that occurs in the rear bearing (that causes the Bb horn to leak before the F does-as several people have noticed), is basically also a result of the forward movement described above. I hope this helps to clear this up. Paul Navarro Custom Horn Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
Just before I began working at Holton , an experiment was done with Louis Stout. Louis Stout was as respected as Phil Farkas by Holton. Horns were air tested in the testing room on a manometer. If the air test was below a certain level, the rotors were taken out and plated and refit.Management thought that was a pretty costly way to produce horns. This was before new machinery was developed by Leblanc to make better fitting rotary assemblies. A number of horns were air tested and the numbers were written down and put away.The numbers were all within the allowable range, but some were higher than others. Louis played each horn and rated them in order of his preference. As it turned out, the horns with the lower air test were the horns Louis preferred. He preferred the response and the smoothness of the horns with the lower air tests over the higher air tests. A friend of mine was going to buy a Geyer. He took it to be checked out by a very reputable repair man. He was advised to have the valves rebuilt because they were not as tight as they could have been. My friend negotiated a lower price for the horn and bought it. He then had the valves rebuilt , and confided that the horn played no better with the valve rebuild. The horn played great before the rebuild and no better after. Not to say that valve rebuilds are ever unnecessary, but a little leakage seems to be not so critical. Wes ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Why do valves leak?
In a message dated 1/8/2006 9:40:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I try to convince my students NOT to buy Al Cass oil as I read the comments by Wes Hatch that Al Cass will gum up Holton Valves. I`m not sure that that is what I meant. Oil formulated for piston valves will eventually gum up rotary valves because oil formulated for pistons have wetting agents in them that allow valve oil to adhere longer to the surface of a piston. Pistons slosh the oil down and out of the casings, whereas when valve oil for pistons is used on rotary valves the oil can collect at the bottom of the casing and gum up the action. I`m not sure what the formulation for Cass oil is. If it has wetting agents ( sometimes synthetic sperm whale oil ) then Cass will likely gum up rotors. I know that Holton Valve oil and Holton Rotary oil is different. Holton Rotary oil is 100% filtered kerosene, and Holton valve oil is kerosene with synthetic sperm whale oil added for adhereing better to the pistons. Sorry for any confusion. Wes Hatch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Why do valves leak?
I have to say, this has been one very interesting thread to read! Steve, any recommendations on brands of Valve oil? I try to convince my students NOT to buy Al Cass oil as I read the comments by Wes Hatch that Al Cass will gum up Holton Valves. Since I am one of the people on this list that (gasp) likes Holton Horns and readily recommends them to his students, (Yes everyone, I encourage my students to oil their valves often). I am interested in any particular brand of oil you recommend to those who come into your shop. By the way, Don't you Conn people start on me since I happen to like Holton, I listened to Louis Stout many years ago on why he liked Holton, and since at that time I owned a Holton 77, I thought it was cool because one of the greatest of all time designed it...so there!!! I equate it as one who likes a Chevy over a Ford...So now, I will gum up the valves by adding I now play an Alex...lol...but I still like Holtons... I gotta get to A2 one of these days and see you Walt Lewis At 09:46 PM 1/8/2006, you wrote: I guess there are three people that can make good valves go bad. The manufacturer, the player and the repair tech. I still see many brand new horns that have all kinds of manufacturing grit left inside the valves and the rest of the horn. Our local school system just bought a bunch of new Holtons which I cleaned out for free because I didn't want to deal with the potential problems later. It was truly remarkable how much buffing compound, etc. was in those horns. Just add valve oil and you have liquid sandpaper which will give you no valves to worry about in short order. Remember also that dirt is attracted to and held by oil so clean the horn often enough. That dirt will cause wear to the valves and tuning slides. Even players who take good care of their horn can have trouble when they go on vacation. When the horn's in the closet, the valve oil will evaporate much sooner than the water that's in there. When you get home, your valves are green and stuck. Hans has spelled out with wonderful clarity how to take care of the horn otherwise. Don't let the problems happen in the first place, your horn could be ruined forever if you don't maintain it carefully. Some repair shops can be a real danger zone! Many local music stores don't understand that rotor valves should be airtight. They will soak the valves (and the whole horn) in acids for a long time, they will sand or machine buff or otherwise destroy the rotors, they will put lapping compound or other abrasives in the casing and rotate the valve around until it works (that's even recommended in one repair manual). Talk to the person who's going to do the work and get an idea whether they understand the airtight thing. Ask what, specifically they intend to do and ask if you can watch them do it. If you don't get a good feeling, try someone else. The wrong kind of "repair" will ruin your horn forever! Good luck and buy some valve oil tomorrow! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/wlewis9637%40wowway.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
List, Just for the record, my previous comments about removing bearing play from valves was in no way intended to imply that one should substitute this fix for a plate and fit valve job. Apparently some felt that I was also implying that a valve job is somehow a scam. Nothing can be further from the truth. It was just the opposite which I intended to convey. To elucidate: my point was that certain tests can indicate leaking valves, but most of these tests are only gross indicators. In one case, the example I mentioned, the gross indicators fooled me. Once the horn was disassembled, inspected, and repaired it turned out that all that was needed was a simpler fix. Sometimes a simpler fix is sufficient despite all the gross indications as to what is wrong with the instrument. And, yes, sometimes a valve job is definitely necessary and definitely worth it. By the way, I never make the decision as to whether a repair is worth it. I leave that to my customer, even if I offer an opinion in that regard. Dave Weiner Maryland Band & Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Why do valves leak?
I guess there are three people that can make good valves go bad. The manufacturer, the player and the repair tech. I still see many brand new horns that have all kinds of manufacturing grit left inside the valves and the rest of the horn. Our local school system just bought a bunch of new Holtons which I cleaned out for free because I didn't want to deal with the potential problems later. It was truly remarkable how much buffing compound, etc. was in those horns. Just add valve oil and you have liquid sandpaper which will give you no valves to worry about in short order. Remember also that dirt is attracted to and held by oil so clean the horn often enough. That dirt will cause wear to the valves and tuning slides. Even players who take good care of their horn can have trouble when they go on vacation. When the horn's in the closet, the valve oil will evaporate much sooner than the water that's in there. When you get home, your valves are green and stuck. Hans has spelled out with wonderful clarity how to take care of the horn otherwise. Don't let the problems happen in the first place, your horn could be ruined forever if you don't maintain it carefully. Some repair shops can be a real danger zone! Many local music stores don't understand that rotor valves should be airtight. They will soak the valves (and the whole horn) in acids for a long time, they will sand or machine buff or otherwise destroy the rotors, they will put lapping compound or other abrasives in the casing and rotate the valve around until it works (that's even recommended in one repair manual). Talk to the person who's going to do the work and get an idea whether they understand the airtight thing. Ask what, specifically they intend to do and ask if you can watch them do it. If you don't get a good feeling, try someone else. The wrong kind of "repair" will ruin your horn forever! Good luck and buy some valve oil tomorrow! - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] spamming from hornplayer.net
I've been off the list for about two weeks while on vacation. During that time, I've gotten two messages requesting lessons; must have got info on me from hornplayer.net. One from a someone wanting to pay by "cheque", and another with a yahoo.co.uk email address. Tis the season? MJS ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
Several posters to this list have claimed that you can improve the air seal of a horn by removing the end play, causing the valve to seat lower in the casing. Because the valves are tapered, seating the rotor lower will cause the side wall to move closer to the casing. That's the theory. I measured an Elkhart 8D rotor this afternoon. It measured .857 at the top and .819 at the bottom, over a distance of 1.398 (all measurements are in inches. That give a taper of about .780 degrees. That means that for every .001 the rotor is moved downward you would gain .00027 in diameter. A typical end-pay adjustment is on the order of .001-.003. You would have to move the rotor down .0074 to achieve .001 in radius. This would not make a noticeable difference in the air seal of an instument with any appreciable leakage. So, as Paul Navarro rightly points out, end play is a problem that should be corrected. Correcting it will not, however, make your valves tighter. Bob Osmun > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:06 AM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook? > > In a message dated 1/7/2006 10:22:04 PM Eastern Standard > Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Then too, it can creep up on you as Paul mentioned. A good > horn may get minutely leakier month by month but it happens > so slowly, you don't notice it and you use more and more > muscle to make it keep working until your playing finally > crashes. I've known high paid players who have retired > because of that. > > If I may add to what Paul Navarro, Bob Osmun, and Steve > Mumford wrote (all of whom certainly know about and > understand the problem of leaking valves, and all of whom > wrote very informative and knowledgable responses), there is > one more difficulty with leaking valves which can be > overlooked, especially if a horn has not been maintained well. > > Often we see horns with very dirty and corroded valve rotors > which, after a good ultrasonic cleaning, don't play as well. > The dirt and corrosion had built up within the valves to > provide a seal that no longer existed once the horn was > clean. Sometimes testing a horn for leakage is only valid if > the horn has been cleaned. > > Solving leakage problems is not as straightforward (or > expensive) as you might expect. Here's a story to illustrate > my point: A player brought me an old Geyer at a regional > workshop to get my opinion. I thought the horn was a great > horn except that it would be difficult to be definitive about > it since the valves were so leaky. I recommended a valve > job (plate and fit) as the most likely remedy, and well worth > it for the type of horn. About a year later I talked to the > same player who told me that the horn was wonderful and that > a valve job was not done. Paul Navarro had simply fit the > loose valve bearings and that eliminated the leaks. Simple > and cost effective. > > And that is precisely what should have been done. One can > fix leakage using heavier oil, at least some of the time. > That's inexpensive but often temporary. But one certainly > should clean the horn and fit the bearings. It's much less > expensive than a plate and fit valve job, and it's the > necessary precursor to a valve job. If fitting the bearings > works by itself, job done! If not, then a full valve job may > be in order. Valve jobs cost anywhere from $600 to $1,000 or > more, so take your horn to a shop that does them well. Also, > because of the cost consider its worth relative to the worth > of your instrument. > Many an old horn have come in to the shop in need of a valve > job, which would have been more than half the value of the > horn. Spend your money wisely. > > Dave Weiner > Maryland Band & Orchestra > Brass Arts Unlimited > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Signs of leaky valves?
Hi Paul, As usual, your points are good ones. At the risk of ignoring Mark Twains dictum: "Never miss achance to keep your mouth shut." I have a couple of futher comments to add- > Hi Bob, > Thanks for your comments to my post. > > I wanted to respond to your additional comments to my post. > > 2. The only accurate test is one using a static > air pressure gage to measure the leakage in > the actual air path. > > This is a very accurate way to measure air leakage from the > scientific viewpoint. > But as you know, most of the players out there do not have > this equipment. > I do believe, though, that sensitive players can easily > discern leakage by the way their horn responds -- without > this equipment . I agree 100%. What then, is the justification for relying on the "pop test"? > >3.I think the most important thing to > remember about valve tightness is that, > assuming the valves were tight when > new, the primary cause of deterioration > is not mechanical but chemical, and is > almost entirely preventable. Valve > that have been oiled on a regular basis > have a service life of twenty years > or more. > > I agree that valve leakage is very preventable- assuming that > the valves are built within good tolerances when they are made. > Unfortunately this is not the case with several > manufacturers, and if there > is sloppiness in the initial product, mechanical wear can > begin in a very > short time. How true. > > > > 3. Assuming the bearing plate is seated all the way down > and we're talking > > about end play of less than .010" or so (that's really a > lot), the ability > > of the rotor to move vertically is not a significant cause > of leakage and > > removing the end-pay will not tighten the air seal to any > noticable extent. > > > > > > This is a debateable point because of the fine line between > when the valve is > working properly and when it comes to the point of where it > starts to leak. > Vertical play is one of the causes of excessive wear in the > valves and should > be addressed and corrected whenever occurs. > It is also one of the major causes of valve sticking. Again, we are fully in agreement. End play and side play are both problems and symptoms of larger problems and should be addressed as soon as they occur. As far as the fine line beyond which a velve need to be rebuilt; in our shop we're usually talking about the difference between 40 and 90%, not 80 and 90. As technicians, we have to deal with the mechanical side of the instrument and accept guidance from the players as to the finer points of the playing qualities. Some players prefer the effieciency of a horn with very tight valves. Others, especially those who have gotten used to a leaking horn whose floppiness have hidden intonation deficiencies, prefer a looser instrument. Our job is to try to give all of them the best performing equipment we can. I guess where I come down is: The horn is a unique instrument but not so unique that it improves by being worn out and mal-treated. They need to be taken care of and maintained by people who understand the mechanism. Regards, Bob ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: signs of leaky valves
This thread has been very interesting - I am full of appreciation for the detailed insights provided by real experts. It leads me to conclude that leaky valves come about from a combination of corrosion and mechanical wear. Corrosion from acidic stuff spat into the horn presumably affects the rotor and the bearing surfaces equally all round - except, presumably, where there are build ups of oxides which may protect the metal. I assume that mechanical wear of the bearings is not even however, since the valves move back and forth over only part of their possible range of movement - I expect this makes the bearings go oval. I've heard that the Bb side of a double begins to leak first; this must result from the bottom bearings wearing oval and allowing a bigger than appropriate gap to form between the rotor and the casing. The two sources of wear presumably interact, which must produce some complicated effects. There must have to be quite a lot of wear in the bottom bearing before the rotors begin to wear against the casing. Am I right in any of this? Another question: Which valve usually wears out first? I've always assumed the second - does it get more use than the rest? Best wishes Tom ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Teachers on hornplayer.net please read!!!
Hi all, Just wanted everyone to know that the scammers are active again, using hornplayer.net to get teachers' email addresses. I've received three emails in the past week from different addresses asking me if I would teach them or their children french horn lessons for a few weeks. They all want to know how many hours per-day I would require, how much I charge, and what my qualifications are (even though all that info is on the website). I'm tempted to mess with them, but I'd rather not verify that my e-mail address is an active one. It'd be fun though to send em' an e-mail letting them know that they can transfer funds directly to my bank account, whose details are in an attached file. Anyone know how to write a virus? Heh heh heh. Josh ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Reicha Trios
Carl Brower wrote: >I am looking for a complete set of the 24 trios by Antonin Reicha >op. 82, and have not had much luck in my internet search. Can >anyone point me in the right direction? That is an Ostermeyer edition, and we would be happy to supply that for you if you like. Please feel free to contact us privately if you are interested. David B. Thompson, President Thompson Edition, Inc. http://www.thompsonedition.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K
That would be the single Bb model already in production. You do however have to FORCE the high notes. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kjellrun Hestekin Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:50 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K And would their top model be the "Han Solo"?? (Sorry, it's been a long weekend in recording sessions!!) Kjellrun >If the Chinese instrument makers decide to copy this horn (and no doubt >they will!) Han Hoyer would be a very good pseudonym to use. And >perhaps the Chinese horn could be endorsed by Han Pizka...what do you >think, Prof.? > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Prof.Hans Pizka >Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:57 PM >To: 'The Horn List' >Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K > >Sorry, Dr.Schaffer, the name is "Hans Hoyer" and not "Han Hoyer", which >would imply a chinese origin perhaps .. > > >=== > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >William Schaffer >Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PM >To: horn@music.memphis.edu >Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K > >Orlando Pandolfi wrote: > ><5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon Do you know if these newer >models are going to be at any of the upcoming workshops? I'd always >liked the older Hoyer horns as an affordable alternative for students >when they were available and 'd love to play a few of these new ones. >Bill Schaffer > > > >Dr. William R. Schaffer >B.M.E., M.M., D.M.A. >Associate Professor Horn/Theory >Department of Music >Auburn University >Auburn, AL 36849-5420 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr >Studio - (334) 844-3187 > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. >de > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu > > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K
And would their top model be the "Han Solo"?? (Sorry, it's been a long weekend in recording sessions!!) Kjellrun If the Chinese instrument makers decide to copy this horn (and no doubt they will!) Han Hoyer would be a very good pseudonym to use. And perhaps the Chinese horn could be endorsed by Han Pizka...what do you think, Prof.? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prof.Hans Pizka Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:57 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K Sorry, Dr.Schaffer, the name is "Hans Hoyer" and not "Han Hoyer", which would imply a chinese origin perhaps .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Schaffer Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K Orlando Pandolfi wrote: <5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon Do you know if these newer models are going to be at any of the upcoming workshops? I'd always liked the older Hoyer horns as an affordable alternative for students when they were available and 'd love to play a few of these new ones. Bill Schaffer Dr. William R. Schaffer B.M.E., M.M., D.M.A. Associate Professor Horn/Theory Department of Music Auburn University Auburn, AL 36849-5420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr Studio - (334) 844-3187 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hestekin%40mun.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Reicha Trios
Here they are, all 24 of them, http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Reicha.html Michiel van der Linden, Bruges, Belgium Carl Brower schreef: Hello all, I am looking for a complete set of the 24 trios by Antonin Reicha op. 82, and have not had much luck in my internet search. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks so much for your help, Carl in TX ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/mvdl%40evonet.be ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K
If the Chinese instrument makers decide to copy this horn (and no doubt they will!) Han Hoyer would be a very good pseudonym to use. And perhaps the Chinese horn could be endorsed by Han Pizka...what do you think, Prof.? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prof.Hans Pizka Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:57 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K Sorry, Dr.Schaffer, the name is "Hans Hoyer" and not "Han Hoyer", which would imply a chinese origin perhaps .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Schaffer Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K Orlando Pandolfi wrote: <5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon Do you know if these newer models are going to be at any of the upcoming workshops? I'd always liked the older Hoyer horns as an affordable alternative for students when they were available and 'd love to play a few of these new ones. Bill Schaffer Dr. William R. Schaffer B.M.E., M.M., D.M.A. Associate Professor Horn/Theory Department of Music Auburn University Auburn, AL 36849-5420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr Studio - (334) 844-3187 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Reicha Trios
Hello all, I am looking for a complete set of the 24 trios by Antonin Reicha op. 82, and have not had much luck in my internet search. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks so much for your help, Carl in TX ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K
Sorry, Dr.Schaffer, the name is "Hans Hoyer" and not "Han Hoyer", which would imply a chinese origin perhaps .. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Schaffer Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K Orlando Pandolfi wrote: <5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon Do you know if these newer models are going to be at any of the upcoming workshops? I'd always liked the older Hoyer horns as an affordable alternative for students when they were available and 'd love to play a few of these new ones. Bill Schaffer Dr. William R. Schaffer B.M.E., M.M., D.M.A. Associate Professor Horn/Theory Department of Music Auburn University Auburn, AL 36849-5420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr Studio - (334) 844-3187 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Han Hoyer 5802K
Orlando Pandolfi wrote: <5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon Do you know if these newer models are going to be at any of the upcoming workshops? I'd always liked the older Hoyer horns as an affordable alternative for students when they were available and 'd love to play a few of these new ones. Bill Schaffer Dr. William R. Schaffer B.M.E., M.M., D.M.A. Associate Professor Horn/Theory Department of Music Auburn University Auburn, AL 36849-5420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.auburn.edu/~schafwr Studio - (334) 844-3187 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Han Hoyer 5802K
BTW, The "2" in the number refers to string. 5801 is metal linkage. There are now a couple of new 5802's. One is the 5802 PM which is a small bell Kruspe wrap, and the 5802 CK is the Geyer wrap. 5802 CK is not available yet, but VERY soon. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Omar Kolaghassi Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:13 PM To: Horn list Subject: [Hornlist] Han Hoyer 5802K Hey listers, I was just curious if anyone's tried the Hoyer 5802K? Is it a considered a "professional" geyer wrap horn? I'd just like to hear anyone's comments about the instrument if they have experience wtih itwith that fine German engineeringmhhhmmm. And also what extra digits or letters would be added to the model for a detachable bell. I know the K stands for string linkage. Thanks, Michael K. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Hans Hoyer 5802K (addition to my original post)
Hi Mike, The 5802K has undergone some changes, and is now more of a true Geyer wrap. This model is being released in a couple of months. The difference in appearance is that the branches entering and leaving the valve cluster are straight instead of curved "Knopf" style. I'm a bit biased, as I have been working closely with Gerhard Meinl (Meinl-Weston Tubas) who how owns the Hoyer factory, but I also think the Hoyer sounds much better. They will be priced competitively with the Yamaha. Feel free to contact me directly if you would like more info. Orlando -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Omar Kolaghassi Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:11 AM To: Horn list Subject: [Hornlist] Hans Hoyer 5802K (addition to my original post) hey everyone, and can someone please give a comparison of the Hoyer 5802 against a Yamaha 667 (not the "custom" 667VL or whatever it is...unless the hoyers pretty close to itaww what the heck if its a 667VL give me the comparison anyway, good or bad for the Hoyer.) thanks, Mike K. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
But, Dave, there is a very cheap solution: Dont let the valve rotors & casings corrode. How ? Keep your mouth clean before & during playing. Sometimes, teethbrushes seem to be unknown. Avoid acidic intake before playing & during intermissions. Keep the horn clean. Dont expose it to aggressive environment. Do not plumb around with the valves except you are a skilled instrument maker, who knows very well how to care about the valves. Never let the valves be polished for cleaning, just get them ultrasonic cleaned as mentioned before. If you dismantle the valves at your home, you should do it in a hospital clean environment. Smalles particles between rotor & casing tend to shave away things. Invest some reasonable money into your instrument by bringing it to professional cleaning within regular intervals (every two years or so), but order your repaiman firmly not to polish the valves (see above). But there are rare cases, where the mouth flora is so aggressive, eating away brass by the time. Here is just one help, rinsing the horn every few days. With these things in mind & practica, the valves will remain tight for a very long time, but do not expect it they would for 40 year plus, if you dont care & if you dont invest the minimum of money for cleaning. And if the horn has really become leak, hang it on the wall as a decoration or convert it to a night lamp, but dont sell it on ebay cheating unexperienced bargain hunters (even if some of them deserve being cheaten !). If the horn is maintained properly, there is no reason, why the valves should become leak. Most of the players do not play their horns for many hours every day, so the mechanical wear would become significant to create leakage. But improper manufacturing & assembling the horn would be a main source for leakage too. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:06 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook? In a message dated 1/7/2006 10:22:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then too, it can creep up on you as Paul mentioned. A good horn may get minutely leakier month by month but it happens so slowly, you don't notice it and you use more and more muscle to make it keep working until your playing finally crashes. I've known high paid players who have retired because of that. If I may add to what Paul Navarro, Bob Osmun, and Steve Mumford wrote (all of whom certainly know about and understand the problem of leaking valves, and all of whom wrote very informative and knowledgable responses), there is one more difficulty with leaking valves which can be overlooked, especially if a horn has not been maintained well. Often we see horns with very dirty and corroded valve rotors which, after a good ultrasonic cleaning, don't play as well. The dirt and corrosion had built up within the valves to provide a seal that no longer existed once the horn was clean. Sometimes testing a horn for leakage is only valid if the horn has been cleaned. Solving leakage problems is not as straightforward (or expensive) as you might expect. Here's a story to illustrate my point: A player brought me an old Geyer at a regional workshop to get my opinion. I thought the horn was a great horn except that it would be difficult to be definitive about it since the valves were so leaky. I recommended a valve job (plate and fit) as the most likely remedy, and well worth it for the type of horn. About a year later I talked to the same player who told me that the horn was wonderful and that a valve job was not done. Paul Navarro had simply fit the loose valve bearings and that eliminated the leaks. Simple and cost effective. And that is precisely what should have been done. One can fix leakage using heavier oil, at least some of the time. That's inexpensive but often temporary. But one certainly should clean the horn and fit the bearings. It's much less expensive than a plate and fit valve job, and it's the necessary precursor to a valve job. If fitting the bearings works by itself, job done! If not, then a full valve job may be in order. Valve jobs cost anywhere from $600 to $1,000 or more, so take your horn to a shop that does them well. Also, because of the cost consider its worth relative to the worth of your instrument. Many an old horn have come in to the shop in need of a valve job, which would have been more than half the value of the horn. Spend your money wisely. Dave Weiner Maryland Band & Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu un
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Signs of leaky checkbook?
In a message dated 1/7/2006 10:22:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then too, it can creep up on you as Paul mentioned. A good horn may get minutely leakier month by month but it happens so slowly, you don't notice it and you use more and more muscle to make it keep working until your playing finally crashes. I've known high paid players who have retired because of that. If I may add to what Paul Navarro, Bob Osmun, and Steve Mumford wrote (all of whom certainly know about and understand the problem of leaking valves, and all of whom wrote very informative and knowledgable responses), there is one more difficulty with leaking valves which can be overlooked, especially if a horn has not been maintained well. Often we see horns with very dirty and corroded valve rotors which, after a good ultrasonic cleaning, don't play as well. The dirt and corrosion had built up within the valves to provide a seal that no longer existed once the horn was clean. Sometimes testing a horn for leakage is only valid if the horn has been cleaned. Solving leakage problems is not as straightforward (or expensive) as you might expect. Here's a story to illustrate my point: A player brought me an old Geyer at a regional workshop to get my opinion. I thought the horn was a great horn except that it would be difficult to be definitive about it since the valves were so leaky. I recommended a valve job (plate and fit) as the most likely remedy, and well worth it for the type of horn. About a year later I talked to the same player who told me that the horn was wonderful and that a valve job was not done. Paul Navarro had simply fit the loose valve bearings and that eliminated the leaks. Simple and cost effective. And that is precisely what should have been done. One can fix leakage using heavier oil, at least some of the time. That's inexpensive but often temporary. But one certainly should clean the horn and fit the bearings. It's much less expensive than a plate and fit valve job, and it's the necessary precursor to a valve job. If fitting the bearings works by itself, job done! If not, then a full valve job may be in order. Valve jobs cost anywhere from $600 to $1,000 or more, so take your horn to a shop that does them well. Also, because of the cost consider its worth relative to the worth of your instrument. Many an old horn have come in to the shop in need of a valve job, which would have been more than half the value of the horn. Spend your money wisely. Dave Weiner Maryland Band & Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
