RE: [Hornlist] The Pope Effect
Larry, this does not work. Why gripping so high (really high) ? If you make a mistake in Konzertstueck, nobody will complain. But if you play Oberon a thousand times without any lightest scratch on the beginning, nobody would talk, but if you ruin it just ONCE, all people would speak about it for generations tell you, that there was a hornplayer tenthousand years ago, who never failed ... (quot. Bruno Jaenicke or/and Emil Wipperich) So, improving the horn does not bring that much, if the lips are not prepared right or the playing technique is not up to the task ... === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Jellison Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 7:49 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] The Pope Effect Ken wrote: I guarantee you that if someone pays a large amount for a repair on their horn - they'll be influenced to think that their instrument feels different. That's great, Ken, and gives us new hope. How much will you charge to fix my horn so that with my lips it can play the 1st horn part of Konzertstuck? Larry Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Dennis Brain and Acoustics
Message text written by The Horn List Dennis Brain used to sit the length of his horn uncurled (the site claims 12 ft. 9 in. ) from the nearest wall in order for his playing to have the best acoustics. Dear All This I have not heard before but in fact, the standard seating in many British horn sections up to and including the early 1950s was to have the 1st horn seated so that the rest of the section were to his left. And as British sections did and do usually sit to the left of the orchestra (looking from the front) this meant that the 1st horn often could 'bounce' the sound off the wall. I have seen a reference in print to Dennis Brain doing this but, the reason usually given for this seating is that the 1st horn's bell was not pointing right into the 2nd horn. There are many well known British orchestral photos of this seating - e.g., Douglas Moore and the BBC Symphony section which is contained in the Robin Gregory book (Mr Moore - the only member of that section pictured still alive - has recently confirmed that this was the standard seating at the BBCSO at that time which was circa 1954) and the photo of the London Symphony Orchestra recording Elgar's Violin Concerto with Elgar conducting and Yehudi Menuin as soloist. This was taken in 1932 and shows the 1st horn (Aubrey Thonger) to the left as you look at the orchestra with the section (2nd Victor Penn, 3rd a player who has been identified as Frank Probyn but there is apparently some doubt about this, and 4th Charles Gregory - later 1st horn in the London Philharmonic) to his left. Cheers Paul A. Kampen (W. Yorks UK) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Dennis Brain and Acoustics
Hi Paul, I was once told that this English tradition was amongst the recording orchestras (i.e. BBC because of something to do with mike placement and/or early recording techniques. I didn't think they used this seating plan when they were perfoming live. Cheers, (and ready to be corrected) Lawrence ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Valve question
Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Many Thanks -- Mathew James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Valve question
Dear Matthew, just reading books about that, is not the right method to get into that stuff. One has to learn first, how the mechanical functions work with different material, how the opening closing of the valves work, what influx the details will have on the sound column if valves go into action, how different alloy behave in contact each other, about lubrification, how the action is performed, etc.etc. All this could be read together, but without practica, it will remain just a fumjbling around until a result or no result will surface by chance or not. Good sources with measurement tables, ankles, material specifications etc. can be found in the books by Schramm: Blechblasinstrumente Noedl: Metallblasinstrumentenbau , but all in German language. To understand all the basics, I would recommend you to stay with a master for several months learn as much as you can then, to understand the basics of metal-wind-instrument fabrication. But after that, the real task will begin. And I promise you, you will not get rich by just two things: valve design mute design. It is a lousy business can be done only as a side job. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mathew James Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:15 PM To: horn list Subject: [Hornlist] Valve question Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Many Thanks -- Mathew James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Valve question
Matt J wondered Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. *** Really, you should have no trouble finding concrete sources, assuming there are any building supply outfits in your town. In my experience, concrete is more difficult to machine than brass, though it is, of course, much cheaper. I found a scientific article once which described trumpets made of various materials. One of the trumpets had been encased in concrete, with only the mouthpiece and bell exposed. The experimenter asserted that the tone quality of the instrument was identical to one whose surface had not undergone this treatment. The performer, however, asserted that the playing characteristics had been altered so greatly as to make the instrument unsuitable for marching band. Clearly a lot more research is required on this point. Gotta go, Cabbage ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] The Pope Effect
I am not sure about that. Last year I had Lawson go over my 8D, when I got it back I found my range had not increased at all, my articulation was still what one could expect of an earnest amateur and well, nothing had changed at all. Should I ask for my money back? Ken wrote: I guarantee you that if someone pays a large amount for a repair on their horn - they'll be influenced to think that their instrument feels different. That's great, Ken, and gives us new hope. How much will you charge to fix my horn so that with my lips it can play the 1st horn part of Konzertstuck? Larry Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] More Telemann Works for Horn
Unless I have missed it, no one has mentioned the Concerto in Eb for 2 horns and strings from Tafelmusik, part III. Telemann wrote many more works (concerti, suites, overture-suites) with two or more horns. Follow the links below to see some recordings of a number of them (but definitely not all there are) If these links are too hard for your browser to follow, just go to www.arkivmusic.com and got to the composer search, select Telemann and then search the entries under Concertos, Orchestral and Tafelmusik: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11975name_role1=1genre=1bcorder=19comp_id=97131 http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=11975name_role1=1comp_id=17165genre=55bcorder=195 http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=11975name_role1=1comp_id=17166genre=55bcorder=195 If you look carefully, you may notice that the same work shows up in more than one location under slightly differing names and Telemann catalog numbers. The Telemann Werksverzeichnis (if that is what it calls itself) is not nearly as coherent and universally accepted as Koechel and BWV numbers are for Mozart and Bach, respectively. So, it takes more than a little digging to get to the root of this matter. Maybe Hans or someone else out there knows that current state of that catalog and if there actually is a complete edition for Georg Philipp or not. His output was huge, even judged in comparison to WAM and JSB, so it is no wonder that a detailed overall picture is hard to come by. Peter Hirsch ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Valve Question - BEWARE!
Mathew (One-Tee) wrote: Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Take care young man, there's a Cabbage about.. Foxy UK ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Valve question
Original Message: date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:15:00 -0700 from: Mathew James [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Valve question Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Many Thanks I'm not sure if you've read about this yet or not, but Mark Veneklasen developed his own design for the French Horn (two, in fact, the V1 and the V2), and while these have never gone into mass production (unfortunately), the story found here http://hornplayer.net/vhorn.asp is very interesting, as it seems he was quite successful in his endeavors. Also, here a few other articles/sites I've stumbled across, though they may be a bit physics-heavy: Acoustics of Brass Instruments: http://www.geocities.com/vienna/3941/index.html Mouthpiece Articles: http://www.storkcustom.com/html/table%20of%20contents%20Dr.%20Mouthpiece%20archived%20files.htm Standing Waves in Wind Instruments: http://cnx.org/content/m12589/latest/ Hope this helps. Adam Watts ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Valve question
I hope you're preparing with a good technical education. I much prefer a pure science, like physics, over more specialized engineering courses. That will prepare you to read meaningful advanced articles searching for solutions. A basic physics course will introduce you to Helmholz and resonators. You'll study waves in a tube, and what effects the properties. Later, studying theory will begin to tie things together. Studying advanced material that really interests you in conjunction with the theory will not only be far more meaningful to you, it will make dull theory much more pleasurable. Before you invest a lot of yourself in a project, pick something to work on that really fills a need. Most horn players who would appreciate an advanced mute already have mutes that have proven to work year after year. If you study valve linkages, you'll discover synthetic Spectra fishline is so thin and strong, you need to double it over to get a knot that won't slip through the hole. With two strings on each rotor, if a string breaks, the other takes over. Likewise, the ball joint linkage on my Paxman is as good and quiet as I need, and can be installed on any horn quite reasonably. To succeed in design or modifications, theory won't get you very far. I was trained by an internationally renowned scientist/engineer. Absolutely phenomenal in pioneering theory and tuning it into profitable products for GTE Sylvania. One of his favorite comments was, I'll predict nothing, but I'll explain everything. He taught me to always share my latest finding rather than keep them secret. Rarely do they do the competition much good, but if you can trade one ten times, all the new information you gather might lead you to something worthwhile. To succeed in design you have to gain control of the design so modifications are predictable and repeatable. A good exercise to see if you are really interested is to borrow several horns and very carefully measure the tapers of the inside of the bells and leadpipes accurate to 2-3 thousandths of an inch. To help you, assume when you start that the taper is a smooth, continuous function. Use Excel to plot your data set. If you get something close to a smooth curve, you can then go back and check and adjust your measurements. Each time, you'll learn more subtleties about the job. Plot the taper on a greatly shortened x axis to exaggerate it. When you're done, you should know exactly how long each horn really is, where the cylindrical tubing is located, and probably have found places where dents were very skillfully removed. Armed with this, you'll be ready to learn from the design information Walter Lawson generously makes available. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:16 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Valve question Dear Matthew, just reading books about that, is not the right method to get into that stuff. One has to learn first, how the mechanical functions work with different material, how the opening closing of the valves work, what influx the details will have on the sound column if valves go into action, how different alloy behave in contact each other, about lubrification, how the action is performed, etc.etc. All this could be read together, but without practica, it will remain just a fumjbling around until a result or no result will surface by chance or not. Good sources with measurement tables, ankles, material specifications etc. can be found in the books by Schramm: Blechblasinstrumente Noedl: Metallblasinstrumentenbau , but all in German language. To understand all the basics, I would recommend you to stay with a master for several months learn as much as you can then, to understand the basics of metal-wind-instrument fabrication. But after that, the real task will begin. And I promise you, you will not get rich by just two things: valve design mute design. It is a lousy business can be done only as a side job. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mathew James Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 6:15 PM To: horn list Subject: [Hornlist] Valve question Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Many Thanks -- Mathew James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post:
[Hornlist] valve question
date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:15:00 -0700 from: Mathew James [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Valve question Hey list. I'm looking to pick some of your brains today. I have begun to develop a interest In horn design (features more so than entire wraps and such) such as valve mechanisms, and such. And also mute design, all cool stuff. I have been digging through the Internet and my library for books on the ideas and such, have learned a fair amount but am wondering if anyone can direct me to some concrete sources. Many Thanks -- Mathew James Mathew, I just checked the phone book and it lists several ready mix concrete companies. If I were you though I would continue looking for information about horns. To that end, have you read The French Horn by Morley~Pegge? It is a very good place to start and describes many odd instruments of years past. LLBrown ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
