[Hornlist] Leadpipes (was French Besson Trumpets)
Hello Dave and Listers: All true what you said about hours and hours of design and testing but I think your description of the manufacturing of a pipe is a bit simplistic. Since I'm working on a batch of pipes, learning to make them right, I'll list details and approximate times so the folks will know. Cut and heat treat approx. 2' of tubing - 2 secs. to cut, 1 hour or more to heat treat in furnace. Step end of pipe and rough step taper pipe on hand press - 10 min. Soap mandrel and pipe, screw mandrel on hydraulic press - 30 seconds Draw pipe - 30 seconds Remove pipe from mandrel, remove mandrel from press, clean both - 1 min. Heat treat pipe - 1 hour or so Cool pipe, heat pitch and fill pipe, cool again - 30 min. Cut bending block from wood and finish edges smooth - 15 min Measure precisely and cut receiver end of pipe exactly so it plays right when finished - 2 min (measuring precisely is a small step omitted by most manufacturers). Bend pipe - 30 seconds Get wrinkles in pipe, heat, remove pitch, throw in trash - 2 min Swear like a sailor, treat cuts, burns, broken fingernails, etc. - another 5 min or so Start over at top of list - 3 hours, 2 secs. Get good bend this time, remove pitch, 2 min. Make cap - first 7 steps above without rough step taper plus bead end on lathe - 2 hrs., 50 min., 2 sec. Make slide connector - inner and outer straight tube - cut, bead on lathe - 5 min Make cap ferrule cut and bead on lathe - 2 min. Cut blank from sheet metal, heat treat, press, grind, shape and finish hand guard - 15 min. Solder parts together, stamp name and number - 10 min or so Clean, buff and polish - 30 min. or more. If doing nickel silver, add some time for polishing. Now, these are all the processes, and you make parts like caps, ferrules, slide receivers in batches. If you have all your parts made, cleaned and ready to go, it is still at least an hour solid time from start (bending) to finish (assembly and buffing) to make a finished pipe if nothing goes wrong. So now you have a very good idea of what you are paying for in a custom leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play better? Kendall Betts Apprentice Horn Maker In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:55:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would translate both hills and sips in them as hills and dips along the taper, that is, the taper never decreasing, but sometimes increasing faster. Put a straight edge along it, and you'll see hills and dips. -- You're right, in that this is the only interpretation of the story that makes any sense. It reminds me of a story which Walt Lawson told me (I'll leave out details and names) about a suggestion to make a leadpipe with a straight taper. Walter had to point out that this had been proven to be a poor design for a horn. When you think about it, there is infinite variation in possible leadpipe designs, but only a very few actually work well. That's why makers get a lot of money for good pipes. They put a lot of work into the design. I've seen leadpipes being made. It takes only a few minutes of actual labor to draw a pipe. But only think of the hundreds of hours it takes to design the pipe, to install and maintain the machinery, and then to test and prove the pipe! Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a template preserving the exact shape. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 6:44 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets I heard the following story from a US Army soldier, and trumpet player, who was there when the French Besson factory was liberated from the Germans in World War II. He was a close friend of mine, and played trumpet in the local symphony for some thirty years. His son plays trumpet in St. Louis, I'm told. His name was Harold Smitheman, and he passed away a couple of years ago. It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the world. Harold, who happened to own a French Besson protested, but rank has its privileges, and Harold lost the battle. Wilbert in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a template preserving the exact shape. I was wondering the same thing. Almost seems as if the leadpipe would need to be thick-walled tubing, turned in a lathe to put a negative image of the dips on the outside, then squeezed into a die that would make the outside smooth and push the pattern to the inside. Or rolled from a flat brass sheet around the shaped mandrel, then sprung apart to remove it before soldering the seam closed. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: French Besson Trumpets
1) Absolutely not so, they knew exactly what they were doing, the dipsy doodles were on purpose. 2) It aint necessarily so (everybody hum along). Hugh Cooper designed the Puechner bassoons and every one that came into the US went through his hands. He tweaked them, made sure all the holes were the right size etc. At some point he got a couple of bassoons that just played terrible no matter what he did, using the bocal in the case. Finally he tried them with a Heckel bocal and they played just fine. He contacted Puechner and after much dissembling got the story. They had wrecked the mandrel for the good bocal (mega hours of design time, finally a really great playing bocal). There wasn't a drawing but there was a reference mandrel so a copy could be made from it, but they took the reference mandrel and used that one for production and managed to wreck that one too. After that they got an old one out of that old cardboard box behind the counter. Hugh tried to recreate the good one but never managed to get it quite as good. I suspect there were not drawings and specifications in the real-world industrial sense for a lot of the tooling for instruments that really PLAYED. The designs were arrived at through a lot of playing, listening, tweaking, cursing and finally - HUZZAH! On the other hand, I'm sure Conn-Selmer has drawings. - Steve Mumford Bill wrote: message: 8 date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:10:36 -0500 from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a template preserving the exact shape. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day
Fascinating description. Who are the trompe players in a typical hunt? I have heard that they typically have no musical training, but just love the ambiance. On the other hand, it certainly would seem to take some amount of musical training to play those calls. DBH ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day
Basic musical training is part of the curriculum in the schools of many Europaean countries. The players learn unter the guide of some hornmasters they have in every horn club or group. There is not much to learn as a bit of rhytm (2/5, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8) The rhythm of the hunting tunes is rather simple. And syncopated things ? Dont many players have a problem with it or with 6/8 ? Tonalities ? All the same written in C-major sounding E-flat or D-major depending of the horns. Third horn e.g. has to play written g1 mostly. Fourth horn has to master a compass from low C to c2. 2nd horn is a bit busier than both others combined goes to g2 occasionally - all written. First horn is the one who plays from low c to high c, but just going up occasionally, within fanfares only, if the souvereign (head of state or even the king of sharpshooters) is present or the inviting Herr of the hunt. But they play by heart mostly. So it keeps them busy to hammer all the tunes fanfares into their brain lips. But much musical training ??? But wait, some of them know things much better than professional brass players - they say so at least. But never force them to play a solo alone, even they are tremendously ambitious, special the female players. And once they have played the first voice even for a short while, they never step back, never, until death. Some of these clubs have made their defects (the bibbering vibrato - because of the nerves -) to a real cult. Would they do a bit of long notes some arpeggio exercises, they would not be that crazy. Some even play the wrong step of the available natural pitches but insist they were not wrong. Speaking out from 25 years of experience with several groups I coach(ed). But it is great cameradery - great rivalry included - great fun; sometimes getting invited to a hunting event (more to take pictures than to kill - hunting does not necessarily mean killing; it means also caring for the free animals in the nature. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel B. Hrdy Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:33 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day Fascinating description. Who are the trompe players in a typical hunt? I have heard that they typically have no musical training, but just love the ambiance. On the other hand, it certainly would seem to take some amount of musical training to play those calls. DBH ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes
So now you have a very good idea of what you are paying for in a custom leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play better? Kendall Betts Apprentice Horn Maker I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on this list, what improved playing characteristics could I expect from installing a custom leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, so what would change? I asked a couple of weeks ago for suggestions on a new horn, and many suggested that I just change the leadpipe. Give me some good reasons. Jim McDermott Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes
Jim McDermott writes: I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on this list, what improved playing characteristics could I expect from installing a custom leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, so what would change? With Lawson FB210.125 you could expect: more centeredness, better projection, better in tune Bb horn especially in upper register, quicker response, easier slurs, easier staccato. This is all assuming the valves are tight and the horn is in overall good condition. If the valves are leaking, a leadpipe makes for little or no improvement so they should be rebuilt before trying pipes. KB ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day
Hans, you are the better musician between the two of us. But when did you last play in 2/5? I never encountered that rhythm. But then I also have done my share of typos. I also have attended my share of Schützenfeste in Germany, even if I am a born Dane. The only marksmans shots were those fired with a hammer, when the tap was placed in the beer barrel. The local fire fighters bands were an offence to everybodys ears. But then I have heard a huge band of retired US-Postal officers playing even worse (I have been a postman myself to finance my studies). The large hunting horns were not common in Northern Germany during my boyhood right after WWII. In Denmark and GDR the Bb Fürst Pless and parforce horns were more common. They have a lot of-out-of-the-hunting-seasons competitions. I never have heard, in vivo or via media, any European hunting horn ensemble being even remotely close to being in tune. I had access to GDR TV during 1986 through 1989. I had accepted Walter Ulbricht, because he was a perfect idiot and couldnt help being a USSR puppet. I never accepted Erich Honecker because he was perfectly corrupt. The GDR nomenclatura under EH behaved like royals with huge hunting parties with lots of brass playing. After the wall-fall a collection of alive brown bears was found in a small cage. They were kept to be released in a restricted area to end up as huntsmans trophies for the nomenclatura. I have killed and skinned a lot of rabbits myself, but those not meeting exposition standards had to end up as food. However I never accepted artificial hunting with all of its brass surrounded ceremonials. As a horseman, brass player, and the keeper of a Border Terrier I actually found the British foxhunting fair and rightful from some veterinary aspects. Rabies is a true threat, and it was a logistic pest, when I showed dogs in Germany and Belgium 30 years ago. I never have had a dog put down for any reason but mercy on its aging health. My smallest brass instrument is a British hunting horn in G. A 6th above the Bb piccolo trumpet. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre --- hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basic musical training is part of the curriculum in the schools of many Europaean countries. The players learn unter the guide of some hornmasters they have in every horn club or group. There is not much to learn as a bit of rhytm (2/5, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8) The rhythm of the hunting tunes is rather simple. And syncopated things ? Dont many players have a problem with it or with 6/8 ? Tonalities ? All the same written in C-major sounding E-flat or D-major depending of the horns. Third horn e.g. has to play written g1 mostly. Fourth horn has to master a compass from low C to c2. 2nd horn is a bit busier than both others combined goes to g2 occasionally - all written. First horn is the one who plays from low c to high c, but just going up occasionally, within fanfares only, if the souvereign (head of state or even the king of sharpshooters) is present or the inviting Herr of the hunt. But they play by heart mostly. So it keeps them busy to hammer all the tunes fanfares into their brain lips. But much musical training ??? But wait, some of them know things much better than professional brass players - they say so at least. But never force them to play a solo alone, even they are tremendously ambitious, special the female players. And once they have played the first voice even for a short while, they never step back, never, until death. Some of these clubs have made their defects (the bibbering vibrato - because of the nerves -) to a real cult. Would they do a bit of long notes some arpeggio exercises, they would not be that crazy. Some even play the wrong step of the available natural pitches but insist they were not wrong. Speaking out from 25 years of experience with several groups I coach(ed). But it is great cameradery - great rivalry included - great fun; sometimes getting invited to a hunting event (more to take pictures than to kill - hunting does not necessarily mean killing; it means also caring for the free animals in the nature. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel B. Hrdy Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:33 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day Fascinating description. Who are the trompe players in a typical hunt? I have heard that they typically have no musical training, but just love the ambiance. On the other hand, it certainly would seem to take some amount of musical training to play those calls. Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com)
[Hornlist] Help Iding a horn
Hey list. I sat down to ID my Conn and found some peculiar things. If someone who is pretty knowledgeable about Conns could contact me off list to help me ID this it would be appreciated. I know about the Serial number listings, and that is where the oddity exists. So save the flaming for a worthwhile cause. Thanks all. -- Mathew James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Help Iding a horn
At 6:03 PM -0700 11/4/06, Mathew James wrote: I sat down to ID my Conn It's fairly easy to hide a horn compared to a Sousaphone or a Steinway grand. Post the serial number, report it to the police, maybe it can be found. -- Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes
I've got a Patterson pipe on my early Texas 8D, but it came with the horn when I got it. I've played it against stock 8Ds from different periods, and I think that the biggest difference between the stock 8Ds and my horn is that the Patterson pipe just makes the horn play easier, and better in tune (though the long 3rd slides affect that somewhat). I just don't feel like I have to work as hard to get the sound I want. Ben --- Jim McDermott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So now you have a very good idea of what you are paying for in a custom leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play better? Kendall Betts Apprentice Horn Maker I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on this list, what improved playing characteristics could I expect from installing a custom leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, so what would change? I asked a couple of weeks ago for suggestions on a new horn, and many suggested that I just change the leadpipe. Give me some good reasons. Jim McDermott Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno42%40yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day
Klaus, sorry. 2/5 was a typo should read 2/4 off course. You are right that Schuetzenfests are connected with a lot of beer wine. You are also correct that most hunting horn bands (the average) are terribly out of tune, no wonder as they do most things with force instead of playing technique. Some of them to practise only at their weekly meetings. But some are brave. Their ear training is terrible to none, so they even do not realize that they are out of tune. But there are exceptions, if the band is coached by a professional or semi-professional, and if this person is strict to all the players, even reassigning to the (mostly) 4 voices. You are also perfectly right about the abuse of the hunt in the so called socialist aera, which was direct compareable to the baroque aera, where they shot half tame deers en masse. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Klaus Bjerre Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 12:19 AM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] St. Hubert's Day Hans, you are the better musician between the two of us. But when did you last play in 2/5? I never encountered that rhythm. But then I also have done my share of typos. I also have attended my share of Schützenfeste in Germany, even if I am a born Dane. The only marksmans shots were those fired with a hammer, when the tap was placed in the beer barrel. The local fire fighters bands were an offence to everybodys ears. But then I have heard a huge band of retired US-Postal officers playing even worse (I have been a postman myself to finance my studies). The large hunting horns were not common in Northern Germany during my boyhood right after WWII. In Denmark and GDR the Bb Fürst Pless and parforce horns were more common. They have a lot of-out-of-the-hunting-seasons competitions. I never have heard, in vivo or via media, any European hunting horn ensemble being even remotely close to being in tune. I had access to GDR TV during 1986 through 1989. I had accepted Walter Ulbricht, because he was a perfect idiot and couldnt help being a USSR puppet. I never accepted Erich Honecker because he was perfectly corrupt. The GDR nomenclatura under EH behaved like royals with huge hunting parties with lots of brass playing. After the wall-fall a collection of alive brown bears was found in a small cage. They were kept to be released in a restricted area to end up as huntsmans trophies for the nomenclatura. I have killed and skinned a lot of rabbits myself, but those not meeting exposition standards had to end up as food. However I never accepted artificial hunting with all of its brass surrounded ceremonials. As a horseman, brass player, and the keeper of a Border Terrier I actually found the British foxhunting fair and rightful from some veterinary aspects. Rabies is a true threat, and it was a logistic pest, when I showed dogs in Germany and Belgium 30 years ago. I never have had a dog put down for any reason but mercy on its aging health. My smallest brass instrument is a British hunting horn in G. A 6th above the Bb piccolo trumpet. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
