Re: [Hornlist] Re: P for high range
One thing that ought to be considered is something that I've learned from some off-list correspondence with Mr. Rider: sometimes simply changing the words that are used to describe how to do something can be the "trick" to get something done right. With my fuzz problem, Mr. Rider had me try the "rolling" method of playing. It works quite well, and helps a lot... but I'm not actually changing anything major (or even minor - mostly just fine details) in my setup. Instead of thinking "in" I think "roll" and voila! much increased flexibility, less fuzz and amazingly improved endurance (much less pressure). Another example is with attacks. Instead of asking fore "more front," my teacher and I have discovered that using the word "pointed" works to get the desired sound. I'm still using the exact same attack, air speed, etc., only the descrbing words have changed. These "tricks" don't have to be physical - mental, verbal, or even placebo tricks can do the job. Also, misunderstandings between what I was telling Mr. Rider and what exactly was going on were quickly cleared up with a 1.5 minute video of playing. Maybe we need a YouTube for the hornlist :-) Ben --- Wendell Rider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Jun 27, 2007, at 10:00 AM, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > message: 13 > > date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:40:29 +0200 > > from: Daniel Canarutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > subject: Re: [Hornlist] P for high range > > > > I'm answering to Valerie and Wendell. Please note > that I'm not > > pretending to be a top level player; but my > teacher IS, and I'm > > mixing his thoughts with some of my experience. > > > >> Daniel, please specifically define "cute means." > And please share > >> any "cute means" you've had personal experience > with. > > > > By "cute means" (please note that English is not > my mother language) > > I mean something like "shortcuts", or "tricks". > OK, I thought so. I'm sure there are however, a few > language things > to sort out. Tricks in our language can also mean a > method, often > obscure, that facilitates learning or understanding > something, as in > "there is a trick to it." Shortcuts can also be good > OR bad depending > on the situation. A shortcut on a path can save time > and energy but > it can also ruin a trail. A shortcut that chops up a > vital learning > curve is not good. You are using the words only in > the negative > sense, right? > > The idea against > > tricks is that everything should be developed by a > proper method, in > > a proper order, based on the experience of high > level players and > > teachers. > On the face of it, that is a perfectly good > approach. All you have to > do to convince me is to explain what that proper > method is. Is it a > sequence of exercises or is it methodology that > includes how our body > works and how we interact with the horn? The old > school is to just > hammer along and to the winners go the spoils. I am > more interested > in bringing methods that work to people who may not > "get it" with the > hit and miss approach. > > The "foundations", or I might say the "basis", is > the > > quality of sound and the quality articulation in > the lower and > > central range. > With all due respect, this says very little. I agree > that having the > middle register together makes for better results > and is absolutely > necessary, but just having a middle register by no > means guarantees > success anywhere else. Just like "practicing low > notes can help the > high register" has its place but in no way is it > methodology for > learning to play high. > > Working properly on that, everything else comes as > a > > consequence by steady study. > This is false in its basic logic. It might be true > but it is not a > methodology for success if you are not one of the > lucky ones who > happens to "get it" from just "steady study," and > there are lots of > people out there who don't. It is, in the final > analysis, a hit and > miss approach. I like the part about steady study as > a general > concept, though. : ) > > > > That is my experience at least, agreeing with my > teacher's approach > > (he would say: "you can't build a house starting > from the roof"). > > I've been told that my sound is generally of good > quality; it is > > decent up to D3, I can lip trill without having > ever studied it; and > > that's how I got there. No tricks. > You are a lucky man, and hard work does pay off, but > many, many > people on this forum would have to say just the > opposite. I myself > never learned to lip trill until I got my embouchure > straitened out > and learned the "trick"- the positive trick or > methodology that has > all of my students trilling in high school- yet I > was playing > principal horn in a good orchestra at the time > because of MY steady > study. Take a poll on here to see how many people > have trouble with > lip trills. It will break your heart. W
Re: [Hornlist] P for high range
Paull Navarro wrote: I strongly agree with Daniel's teacher's approach about the necessity of starting with building a good foundation in your performing skills. This was a basic tenet of Arnold Jacobs teaching. Paul, my teacher was a student of Arnold Jacobs and Dale Clevenger. Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: P for high range
Wendell, thank you for your long answer. If I was lucky in my learning, as you said, that was just because of the teacher I found. His strict and competent control of what I was doing lead me in the right direction. Of course I do have a physical feeling of what I'm doing inside my oral cavity, but I find it to subtle to explain in words (if I had to). It is true that at a certain stage I became able to make lip trills, without having done a specific study. That was after many lessons on long tones, smooth slurs and the like, in which my teacher was never satisfied and insisted on (apparently) simple exercises, which he wanted me to play exactly as he did. I'm also, since several years, a student of the Alexander Technique (unfortunately, I'm not able to explain that way of thinking in a few words; I'll try in the next future, but now I'm going to bed). Alexander used the term "end gaining" for denoting the attitude of attempting shortcuts in order to attain a specific goal, and demonstrated how that attitude eventually determines our bad habits. What is the proper method? Based on my experience: having a competent teacher, whom you try to imitate and who sets your next goals and exerts a strict control on what you are doing. That's the only way I have to be sure I'm not "on the same boat", as you said. Wendell, if I could ever have lessons with you I'd pay the highest attention, and I'm sure I'd learn a lot. I'm less convinced about the effectiveness of reading books (for the purpose of learning to play); you're right, though, that I'm a little lazy about that. And please, don't think I'm one of those know-it-all; I was just expressing my doubts... Best regards, Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] P for high range
In a message dated 6/27/07 9:41:58 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The "foundations", or I might say the "basis", is the > quality of sound and the quality articulation in the lower and > central range. Working properly on that, everything else comes as a > consequence by steady study. > > That is my experience at least, agreeing with my teacher's approach > (he would say: "you can't build a house starting from the roof"). > The posts on this thread are so full of interpretive pitfalls language wise, that I am reminded of how important it is to actually listen to a student's playing in person before giving out prescriptions for a cure. I am always suspect of excess verbosity on the part of teachers and conductors. I strongly agree with Daniel's teacher 's approach about the necessity of starting with building a good foundation in your performing skills. This was a basic tenet of Arnold Jacobs teaching. I would like to note that one of my colleagues from Lyric Opera, Bruce Nelson (who also studied with Jake), has put together a compilation of all of Jacob's teaching material that he could find. It is published by Windsong Press under the title "Thus Spake Arnold Jacobs." I mention this because quite a few of the ideas that are attributed to Jacobs here on this list are not quite on target with what he believed and taught. Sometimes players have a few lessons with a teacher and think that they have an understanding of what the teacher's basic ideas are. This was very dangerous with Jacobs because he often taught progressively. That is, he adapted his approach to what you needed first, and then over time, changed that adaptation to fit your progress. This was always with the final goals of efficient simplicity and performing musically in mind. He believed in Herseth's old adage-too much analysis leads to paralysis. If you would like great information on how to develop and use your air, and also how to take technical challenges and turn them into musical challenges-whereby they can be solved more effectively (something rarely mentioned or attributed to Jake on this list), this material may be very helpful. For more information check out their website: www.windsongpress.com Maybe the P in"P for high range" should stand for PRACTICE. Paul Navarro Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret.) Longtime student of Arnold Jacobs ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: P for high range
On Jun 27, 2007, at 10:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: message: 13 date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:40:29 +0200 from: Daniel Canarutto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> subject: Re: [Hornlist] P for high range I'm answering to Valerie and Wendell. Please note that I'm not pretending to be a top level player; but my teacher IS, and I'm mixing his thoughts with some of my experience. Daniel, please specifically define "cute means." And please share any "cute means" you've had personal experience with. By "cute means" (please note that English is not my mother language) I mean something like "shortcuts", or "tricks". OK, I thought so. I'm sure there are however, a few language things to sort out. Tricks in our language can also mean a method, often obscure, that facilitates learning or understanding something, as in "there is a trick to it." Shortcuts can also be good OR bad depending on the situation. A shortcut on a path can save time and energy but it can also ruin a trail. A shortcut that chops up a vital learning curve is not good. You are using the words only in the negative sense, right? The idea against tricks is that everything should be developed by a proper method, in a proper order, based on the experience of high level players and teachers. On the face of it, that is a perfectly good approach. All you have to do to convince me is to explain what that proper method is. Is it a sequence of exercises or is it methodology that includes how our body works and how we interact with the horn? The old school is to just hammer along and to the winners go the spoils. I am more interested in bringing methods that work to people who may not "get it" with the hit and miss approach. The "foundations", or I might say the "basis", is the quality of sound and the quality articulation in the lower and central range. With all due respect, this says very little. I agree that having the middle register together makes for better results and is absolutely necessary, but just having a middle register by no means guarantees success anywhere else. Just like "practicing low notes can help the high register" has its place but in no way is it methodology for learning to play high. Working properly on that, everything else comes as a consequence by steady study. This is false in its basic logic. It might be true but it is not a methodology for success if you are not one of the lucky ones who happens to "get it" from just "steady study," and there are lots of people out there who don't. It is, in the final analysis, a hit and miss approach. I like the part about steady study as a general concept, though. : ) That is my experience at least, agreeing with my teacher's approach (he would say: "you can't build a house starting from the roof"). I've been told that my sound is generally of good quality; it is decent up to D3, I can lip trill without having ever studied it; and that's how I got there. No tricks. You are a lucky man, and hard work does pay off, but many, many people on this forum would have to say just the opposite. I myself never learned to lip trill until I got my embouchure straitened out and learned the "trick"- the positive trick or methodology that has all of my students trilling in high school- yet I was playing principal horn in a good orchestra at the time because of MY steady study. Take a poll on here to see how many people have trouble with lip trills. It will break your heart. What you say is true for you but it is limited in its effectiveness on a large scale. In my mind it is incomplete pedagogy and too rigid, to boot. I have taught thousands of students and one thing that I always wanted to have for them was methodology that works, not something that might work. The time has come for that. "The truth is out there." : ) In fact, whenever I tried various tricks I always got out of the right way. Now I'm learning. There are negative "tricks," to be sure. but none of us are advocating any of them here. Frankly I resent the word "tricks" in your context because you don't apparently know what I teach or what Jeff Smiley teaches and yet you are coming on here spouting the old school party line like it's a religion or something. I appreciate where you are coming from and your sincerity because that is where i was 30 years ago, and it has its merits. But i am more interested in finding ways to help the vast majority of players out there who are not going to find their true potential by following old generalizations and here-say. I'm not saying that different methods can't be effective. But, Valerie, I think that, in general, the philosophy "If it works it's correct" can be deceptive. What does it means "It works"? Up to which point does it work? How do you know that you are not in a dead end, and that what you got is just the maximum you can get by those means? What you say is true, but how do you know you aren't in the same b
Re: [Hornlist] P for high range
I'm answering to Valerie and Wendell. Please note that I'm not pretending to be a top level player; but my teacher IS, and I'm mixing his thoughts with some of my experience. Daniel, please specifically define "cute means." And please share any "cute means" you've had personal experience with. By "cute means" (please note that English is not my mother language) I mean something like "shortcuts", or "tricks". The idea against tricks is that everything should be developed by a proper method, in a proper order, based on the experience of high level players and teachers. The "foundations", or I might say the "basis", is the quality of sound and the quality articulation in the lower and central range. Working properly on that, everything else comes as a consequence by steady study. That is my experience at least, agreeing with my teacher's approach (he would say: "you can't build a house starting from the roof"). I've been told that my sound is generally of good quality; it is decent up to D3, I can lip trill without having ever studied it; and that's how I got there. No tricks. In fact, whenever I tried various tricks I always got out of the right way. Now I'm learning. I'm not saying that different methods can't be effective. But, Valerie, I think that, in general, the philosophy "If it works it's correct" can be deceptive. What does it means "It works"? Up to which point does it work? How do you know that you are not in a dead end, and that what you got is just the maximum you can get by those means? Wendell, I'm sure you know what you're saying, please intend my observations as warnings to someone who could misunderstand. And I like your pictures, we have a similar feeling for natural places. Best regards, Daniel -- Daniel Canarutto mathematical physicist & dedicated amateur hornist http://www.dma.unifi.it/~canarutto/ (professional home page) http://www.corno.it (Il Club del Corno) http://www.amadeusorchestra.org (orchestra Amadeus - Firenze) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] WALTER LAWSON
To all members of the hornlist: Today was the funeral service for our esteemed colleague, Walter Lawson. Yesterday I contacted Heidi Vogel (Executive Secretary of the IHS) and asked her to present to the IHS advisory board my request to form a Walter Lawson Memorial Scholarship. Heidi agreed to present this proposal to the Advisory board at the IHS Convention in Switzerland in July. Once Heidi informs me that the Board has approved this proposal (and I cannot foresee any reason why they would not do so), I will post on this list that it has been accepted, and where anyone who wishes to contribute to this scholarship fund should send their contribution. While this is just a small gesture of our appreciation, it is the very least we can do in memory of our colleague and friend who contributed so much to so many of us. Paul Navarro IHS State Representative Lyric Opera of Chicago (ret). ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
