Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
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Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
I disagree with this statement completely. You can play notes well below the G above the treble clef. The sound may not be what you desire but it is completely possible due to the fact that the Fundamental is actually the F below the treble clef. This means F down to B natural is doable. Of course there's a break of an octave so the next series is F down to B natural an octave above - meaning the entire treble clef is playable - technically :) Also, where do people get the notion that below a particular note you must use another horn completely? If you can get away with the same horn and a decent sound and still play it musically, who cares? -William In a message dated 4/25/2009 11:34:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, corno...@aol.com writes: Hello Robson, No, the Bb alto horn is very limited below the top of the staff- it is generally used above written high G. Almost everything below that requires a regular Bb horn. I have a Bb/Bb alto model 60, made by Paxman and have found very little use for it besides the Neruda and some other baroque concertos, and a few other symphonic compositions, like the Haydn symphomy #51. Paul Navarro **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Fwd: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Hi Steve, You are correct. It is a standard B/b A -- a four valve normal Bb horn, combined with a Bb alto or sometimes called a Bb soprano ( the same length as a Bb trumpet). Paxman also makes triples in F/Bb/ Bb alto. When I went to Ifor, I took a Bb/F alto horn, and when I took it out, he smiled and said" I think you will find that a Bb/ Bb is a much better horn for this piece". Paul -Original Message- From: Steve Freides To: The Horn List Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 9:10 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. > > He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. > > Paul Navarro > > -Original Message- > From: John Dutton > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the > Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any hor n > that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn > doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials > further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could > be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long > story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with > a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. > > Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he > played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he > played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he > would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February > 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. > > The Jack Attack! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Hello Robson, No, the Bb alto horn is very limited below the top of the staff- it is generally used above written high G. Almost everything below that requires a regular Bb horn. I have a Bb/Bb alto model 60, made by Paxman and have found very little use for it besides the Neruda and some other baroque concertos, and a few other symphonic compositions, like the Haydn symphomy #51. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: Robson Adabo de Mello To: The Horn List Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Is there anybody here that has ever tried a Bb/bb horn? I know that Paxman and Finke have a Bb/bb (both model 60). Once I heard that the Eb high horns that Engelbert is producing are better because the high Eb is not so different from the Bb like the high F, so it's possible to have more uniform transition. Is it possible to use the Bb/bb as a double horn or the difference between Bb and bb is to big to make it possible? Did he played everything on the high Bb side of the horn? Robson 2009/4/25 David A. Jewell that's my understanding of the Paxman instrument. As an aside, Barry Tuckwell recorded the Zelenka Capriccios on the same model instrument. Paxmaha From: Steve Freides To: The Horn List Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. > > He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. > > Paul Navarro > > -Original Message- > From: John Dutton > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the > Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn > that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn > doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials > further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could > be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long > story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with > a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. > > Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he > played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he > played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he > would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February > 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. > > The Jack Attack! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Is there anybody here that has ever tried a Bb/bb horn? I know that Paxman and Finke have a Bb/bb (both model 60). Once I heard that the Eb high horns that Engelbert is producing are better because the high Eb is not so different from the Bb like the high F, so it's possible to have more uniform transition. Is it possible to use the Bb/bb as a double horn or the difference between Bb and bb is to big to make it possible? Did he played everything on the high Bb side of the horn? Robson 2009/4/25 David A. Jewell > that's my understanding of the Paxman instrument. As an aside, Barry > Tuckwell recorded the Zelenka Capriccios on the same model instrument. > Paxmaha > > > > > > From: Steve Freides > To: The Horn List > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:10:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb > side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave > higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb > soprano? > > Thanks. > > -S- > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > > I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda > concerto. > > > > He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. > > > > Paul Navarro > > > > -Original Message- > > From: John Dutton > > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > > Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm > > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > > > The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the > > Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn > > that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn > > doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials > > further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could > > be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long > > story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with > > a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. > > > > Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he > > played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he > > played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he > > would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February > > 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. > > > > The Jack Attack! > > ___ > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > > unsubscribe or set options at > > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > > > > ___ > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > > unsubscribe or set options at > > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
that's my understanding of the Paxman instrument. As an aside, Barry Tuckwell recorded the Zelenka Capriccios on the same model instrument. Paxmaha From: Steve Freides To: The Horn List Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 9:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. > > He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. > > Paul Navarro > > -Original Message- > From: John Dutton > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the > Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn > that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn > doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials > further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could > be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long > story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with > a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. > > Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he > played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he > played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he > would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February > 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. > > The Jack Attack! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
Paul, does that mean it had a low Bb side that's the same as the Bb side of a standard double, and then another Bb side that's one octave higher, which is what people here have, I think, been calling Bb soprano? Thanks. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. > > He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. > > Paul Navarro > > -Original Message- > From: John Dutton > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm > Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda > > The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the > Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn > that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn > doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials > further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could > be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long > story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with > a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. > > Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he > played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he > played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he > would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February > 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. > > The Jack Attack! > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
I went to Ifor James for coaching when I was working on the Neruda concerto. He recorded it on a Paxman Bb/ Bb alto horn. Paul Navarro -Original Message- From: John Dutton To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 4:50 pm Subject: [Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno911%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Ifor James playing Neruda
The Ifor James recording is very nice. The liner notes state the Neruda was recorded on a high Bb horn. It could be played on any horn that one could get the desired tone color from. Using a shorter horn doesn't make it easier to hit a note, it just shifts the partials further apart. The piece can be played on an f alto horn and it could be played on a normal Bb single (5.5 feet long more or less). Long story short is that if you don't have the chops to play that high with a good sound then a shorter horn isn't going to help. Ifor James was a monster of a player and musician. For many years he played a single Bb horn of one type or another. He stated that he played the horn because he could not sing and that if he could sing he would never have played the horn. The Neruda was recorded 10 February 1987 and no doubt on 1/2" tape. The Jack Attack! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
If we imagine the instrument used in Mozart's time to play his horn concerti, is it really far-fetched that someone could play this on modern Eb alto? Sure, there's a spot or two that sounds near-impossible, but do we know that this was a one-take performance? With a bit of editing, magic is possible. -S- On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Robson Adabo de Mello wrote: > What did you find in your research? Did you find something else to listen? > > If it can be played on a Bb trumpet it also can be played on a Bb soprano > horn, but could it be played on a regular high F descant horn (or maybe a > high Eb descant horn) with clean articulation as he played? > > Robson > > 2009/4/25 > >> I did some more research (and some more listening) and what I think it has >> to be is a valved Corno da Caccia - why? Because it's obviously a short >> instrument, and second because the timbre is very close to a Flugelhorn to >> my >> ears. >> >> -William >> **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on >> the >> web. Get the Radio Toolbar! >> (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com >> > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve.freides%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
What did you find in your research? Did you find something else to listen? If it can be played on a Bb trumpet it also can be played on a Bb soprano horn, but could it be played on a regular high F descant horn (or maybe a high Eb descant horn) with clean articulation as he played? Robson 2009/4/25 > I did some more research (and some more listening) and what I think it has > to be is a valved Corno da Caccia - why? Because it's obviously a short > instrument, and second because the timbre is very close to a Flugelhorn to > my > ears. > > -William > **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on > the > web. Get the Radio Toolbar! > (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
I did some more research (and some more listening) and what I think it has to be is a valved Corno da Caccia - why? Because it's obviously a short instrument, and second because the timbre is very close to a Flugelhorn to my ears. -William **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
I believe the Bb soprano horn has the same length of a Bb trumpet, is it right? I have played the 1st movement of Neruda on Bb trumpet and Eb trumpet and on both all trills are valved. We trumpet players almost never use lip trill on valved trumpet (but it's used on Natural/Baroque trumpet)...that's why I don't know how to identify lip and machine trill. To me it sounds like a machine trill, but I'm not sure... 2009/4/25 > > That sounds like a Bb soprano to me. > > -William > > In a message dated 4/25/2009 12:12:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > robson.ad...@gmail.com writes: > > It took a long long time to find, but it's here: > > http://mp3zr.com/?q=ifor+james+neruda > > Ifor James playing the first movement of Neruda Concerto on the original > octave. If I'm not wrong this Concerto was written for corno da caccia, > but > now-a-days it's commonly played by trumpet players. > > The sound is too light to be a regular double horn, for sure it's descant > horn or a soprano horn. Can you identify the horn by the sound? Is he > using > valve or lip trill? > > Thanks and enjoy! > > Robson > > > > **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the > web. Get the Radio Toolbar! > (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/robson.adabo%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
That sounds like a Bb soprano to me. -William In a message dated 4/25/2009 12:12:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, robson.ad...@gmail.com writes: It took a long long time to find, but it's here: http://mp3zr.com/?q=ifor+james+neruda Ifor James playing the first movement of Neruda Concerto on the original octave. If I'm not wrong this Concerto was written for corno da caccia, but now-a-days it's commonly played by trumpet players. The sound is too light to be a regular double horn, for sure it's descant horn or a soprano horn. Can you identify the horn by the sound? Is he using valve or lip trill? Thanks and enjoy! Robson **Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! (http://toolbar.aol.com/aolradio/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown0003) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Ifor James playing Neruda
It took a long long time to find, but it's here: http://mp3zr.com/?q=ifor+james+neruda Ifor James playing the first movement of Neruda Concerto on the original octave. If I'm not wrong this Concerto was written for corno da caccia, but now-a-days it's commonly played by trumpet players. The sound is too light to be a regular double horn, for sure it's descant horn or a soprano horn. Can you identify the horn by the sound? Is he using valve or lip trill? Thanks and enjoy! Robson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
