Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Folks, this effect is basic acoustics. Bass frequencies can have wavelengths up to 40 feet or more. Treble frequencies can be as short as millimeters. Air loss and absorption occurs more readily in the upper frequencies, while bass will cause more things to resonate than will the mids/uppers. Just imagine that when that car is going by, all the upper/mid frequencies have already been absorbed by the cars interior. [partially due to the fact that they will also have less energy to start with than bass.] by the time you are any considerable distance away, the bass frequencies are just reacing their full wavelength, and have undergone much less absorption. When listening indoors to a speaker system, the designer has carefully computed all the factors so that all the frequencies arrive at the listener's ears simultaneously [or as nearly so as possible.] As the distance increases, the frequency spectrum changes due to the above mentioned air loss. That is why concert touring s peaker arrays are so carefully designed and calculated, and why you see many more mid/upper cabinets than you do bass. Mark Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "In addition, a home system (stereo or theatre) will use the floor, wall and any other solid surface as a resonator." In truth, most serious home theater designers try to avoid doing this, and go to ridiculous lengths to include any and all techniques that make the room as acoustically neutral as possible - including floor and wall treatments, double wall design, and even seperating the floor from the rest of the home's structure, a "floating floor" system. Most highly regarded speakers use some technique of increasing "directionality", meaning that they direct their sound energy more directly to the listener and try to keep it off the walls, floors and ceilings. "Take a good look around any automobile and you¹ll notice an abundance of hollow spaces (covered by plastic interior panels) that are perfect resonators." This is true for the majority of autos. True auto sound "audiophiles" and competition sound people go the extreme lengths to deaden any possible resonances, hence the proliferation of many different materials sold to do just that on any interior metal panels. I even read an article some years ago where a guy was filling the walls and doors of his van with concrete to do the same. Paxmaha - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Speaking of car stereos, I recently witnessed what I consider an amazing
effect - a teenager later told me that it is well-known among the
brainbusting superwoofer crowd. I was sitting in my car in the parking
lot at my school; a car passed by slowly - the stereo was on VERY LOUD so
that you could about feel the vibrations. At least 5 parked cars near me
began screaming - the sound had activated their alarm systems. Such a
world!
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Also, in the case of the home theatre and extreme car stereos, you have to factor in the use of subwoofers and the inherent omni directionality of extreme low bass frequencies. This is why when setting up your home theatre, it doesn¹t matter where the subwoofer goes, but the satellites (which handle mid and high frequencies) have to be positioned very precisely. In addition, a home system (stereo or theatre) will use the floor, wall and any other solid surface as a resonator. My home stereo has medium small speakers sitting on some storage units that are backed up to the wall. At any volume other than almost inaudible, EVERYONE in my building can hear what I¹m listening to. Take a good look around any automobile and you¹ll notice an abundance of hollow spaces (covered by plastic interior panels) that are perfect resonators. There¹s much more involved than just the actual point of sound production. Otherwise, a good bell wouldn¹t be so important. Mark "Graeme Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote I'm not convinced about this. In the case of my neighbour's theatre sound, when you are in the room with it the bass is much less noticeable than when you are outside, when it is the only thing you can hear. It is only a small system, too Cheers, MARK TAYLOR MUSIC Original music for indie film, dance, theatre and jazz http://www.mark-taylor.biz [EMAIL PROTECTED] The new CD ³Circle Squared² is available at: http://www.cdbaby.com/marktaylor http://www.omnitone.com/store/artists/taylormark.htm Listen to more music at: http://stage.vitaminic.com/main/mark_taylor/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
In a message dated 1/27/2004 10:05:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I'm not convinced about this. In the case of my neighbour's theatre sound, > when you are in the room with it the bass is much less noticeable than when > you are outside, when it is the only thing you can hear. It > is only a small > system, too Home theater systems are usually very strong in the bass. That's what the average listener wants to hear. What you are hearing is probably the surrounding structure radiating at a low resonance frequency. If you listen to a trumpet from outside an enclosure, it doesn't sound particularly bassy because the total bass energy is fairly low. My son can play MUCH 'louder' on his bass trombone using a shallow Eb tuba mouthpiece than he can on a tuba with a conventional mouthpiece, because the bass trombone doesn't lose much energy producing bass. Probably his loudest tuba is a miniature BBb Sousaphone with an 18" bell, made by Kris Kratt. It adds a dimension to big band sound that otherwise can only be equaled by a bass sax. No organ like tone here. Think of a chimbasso on steroids. He visited the NAMM show recently and tried as many new instruments as possible. He was basically disgusted with the trend in low brass to go to larger and larger bores. He played a new Besson Eb tuba with a bore so large, it can only be played on and off. The sound of an instrument gets 'hollow' sounding and loses all its complexity. Horns seem to be going the same way. It seems 'standard' bore is now .472 to .474. From an acoustics point of view, this doesn't make sense for a double horn. To preserve the F sound, a smaller bore is better. My turn of the century Max Enders horn has a bore of about .455, but with a very large throated bell. Quite a bit larger than the largest bells I've seen on modern horns. The result is a free blowing, silky smooth playing horn with an amazing sound quality. A Geyer size horn, even with the large bell throat. Are there any modern horns with that combination of bore and throat? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Bass drum is a multimix of sounds, so it carries. Basso tuba or Sousaphone are very long instruments. The longer the instrument producing a sound wave, the more over tones come to co-sound. So it carries. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Evans Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 1:20 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power >outdoors. How then do you explain: 1. The fact that the first sound one hears from an approaching band is the bass drum. 2. If you have a neighbour with a theatre sound system the first thing you hear from outside is the output of the sub-woofer. 3. When a car with a loud stereo passes, you hear "doof-doof-doof..." and no tune. Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It's important to look at the amount of energy being generated in the low bass. Each of your examples is an application where tremendous energy is being produced. I'm not convinced about this. In the case of my neighbour's theatre sound, when you are in the room with it the bass is much less noticeable than when you are outside, when it is the only thing you can hear. It is only a small system, too Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Among the Americans, a fellow who had a great reputation for the wonderful sonorities of his bass register was Hugh Cowdens. He was active as a low horn player in, I think, the 40s, 50s, and into the 60s (He thereafter played assistant principal in Chicago). Arnold Jacobs praised his sound. I am wondering if there are any on the list who might have a recording, or access thereto, of Cowden's low horn playing. If so, I say thank you in advance for the sharing thereof. I also look forward to listening to the 4th horn playing you have recommended. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 4:15 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes But does it remain a horn sound, a true horn sound ? Have ever had a chance to listen to my 4rth player on my two CDs with all Viennese F horns ? Perfect clear & full of noble sonority, horn sonority, not just a basso. . -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:50 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:24:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Get the right equipment (mouth piece), follow the advice given by > successful professionals, play !!! If it is not your ranger, try to > improve it. If it still does not work, cultivate the other > ranges of the > horns compass & be better. Your advice on low playing couldn't be better. It's a skill that has to be worked on, and equipment is crucial, particularly the mouthpiece. By using a small mouthpiece, the player has probably learned to use pressure to achieve the upper range. Among the smallest mouthpieces I've seen used with professional effect, I don't recall seeing anything smaller than a Bach 7 or Holton MDC. Playing with a large mouthpiece requires the player to develop emboucher strength, but introduces far more 'muscle' into the cup, greatly increasing endurance, power, and control. It also allows the player to easily switch to a small mouthpiece for descant playing with an authentic, period sound. As I recall you use a very large mouthpiece and obviously stay in the kind of shape needed to support it. Any conditioning program teaches that an individual lifts properly with his legs, not with his arms. A proper leg lifter will long outlast the best arm lifter, and with so much excess strength, it will appear almost effortless. The only point I question is advocation of a deep mouthpiece for low notes. Having done my serious playing in Boston, years ago, I have always favored a large bowl shaped cup, and my professional training was heavily involved with preparing me to play fourth part with strength. The acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece are such that a shallower cup has a few advantages over a deep cup for effectiveness in the low range. I won't argue that a deep cup produces bass more easily, but for a specialist in low playing, clarity, articulation, and power are the really important attributes. A shallower mouthpiece doesn't waste a lot of energy producing the lowest partials. The lower partials don't add much more than muddiness. A player who favors a deeper cup for general playing learns to eliminate the muddiness. But try playing the low register with a wide, shallow mouthpiece, particularly in context with a section, and you'll probably find that the sound is more agile, and projects much better. My son explained the acoustics to me, from his vast expertise. He plays bass trombone and tuba, and uses this effect to great advantage. A Sousaphone is not designed to produce low bass the way a tuba does. Playing outdoors, he plays Sousaphone with a mouthpiece very large in diameter, but quite shallow. He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power outdoors. Not only does he get a beautiful, lyric sound, he can be heard for miles. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
In a message dated 1/27/2004 7:20:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > How then do you explain: > 1. The fact that the first sound one hears from an approaching band is the > bass drum. > 2. If you have a neighbour with a theatre sound system the first thing you > hear from outside is the output of the sub-woofer. > 3. When a car with a loud stereo passes, you hear > "doof-doof-doof..." and > no tune. It's important to look at the amount of energy being generated in the low bass. Each of your examples is an application where tremendous energy is being produced. To better illustrate this, as an engineer and electric bass player, I have built an amplification system that is well balanced for using a five string bass tuned to low B. To do this, I use a 75 Watt RMS amplifier driving a single JBL D130. To this amplifier, I slave a Mackie 1400 Watt amplifier running through an Aura 18" sufficient to easily handle to total power, set to cut off above 200-300 Hz. With the JBL turned off, it is quite easy to carry on a conversation, but sometimes difficult to stay on ones feet. No matter how hard you blow, the production of additional 'bass' is hardly worth the effort. Remember, low riders are usually provided with large capacitor banks to drive the bass to provide instantaneous power in excess of what the car electricals will supply, typically 12VDC @ about 50 Amps, 600 Watts continuous. Hans made a suggestion in his previous post about playing low parts on the Bb horn. It was pointed out to me by a well known mouthpiece designer that to achieve a given sound spectrum, the mouthpiece cup depth should be proportional to the length of the horn. Thus, a bowl shape mouthpiece is more suited to the Bb horn in any register, and a deep vee better matched to the F. I'm not suggesting anyone should adopt a different cup shape for playing the low register because a players overall sound is determined by that aspect of the equipment. A large diameter mouthpiece, with proper practice and conditioning, ensures production of all the elements and range required. If you're a player, like me, who uses the Bb horn a lot, you likely already play on a less vee shaped cup. If you should decide to try switching to a shallower cup, expect to spend some time learning to get the sound to deepen and broaden out. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
But does it remain a horn sound, a true horn sound ? Have ever had a chance to listen to my 4rth player on my two CDs with all Viennese F horns ? Perfect clear & full of noble sonority, horn sonority, not just a basso. May-be, we Viennese trained horn players with the preference for the F sound, have less difficulties in the bass & more strength in the stratospheres. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 8:50 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:24:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Get the right equipment (mouth piece), follow the advice given by > successful professionals, play !!! If it is not your ranger, try to > improve it. If it still does not work, cultivate the other > ranges of the > horns compass & be better. Your advice on low playing couldn't be better. It's a skill that has to be worked on, and equipment is crucial, particularly the mouthpiece. By using a small mouthpiece, the player has probably learned to use pressure to achieve the upper range. Among the smallest mouthpieces I've seen used with professional effect, I don't recall seeing anything smaller than a Bach 7 or Holton MDC. Playing with a large mouthpiece requires the player to develop emboucher strength, but introduces far more 'muscle' into the cup, greatly increasing endurance, power, and control. It also allows the player to easily switch to a small mouthpiece for descant playing with an authentic, period sound. As I recall you use a very large mouthpiece and obviously stay in the kind of shape needed to support it. Any conditioning program teaches that an individual lifts properly with his legs, not with his arms. A proper leg lifter will long outlast the best arm lifter, and with so much excess strength, it will appear almost effortless. The only point I question is advocation of a deep mouthpiece for low notes. Having done my serious playing in Boston, years ago, I have always favored a large bowl shaped cup, and my professional training was heavily involved with preparing me to play fourth part with strength. The acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece are such that a shallower cup has a few advantages over a deep cup for effectiveness in the low range. I won't argue that a deep cup produces bass more easily, but for a specialist in low playing, clarity, articulation, and power are the really important attributes. A shallower mouthpiece doesn't waste a lot of energy producing the lowest partials. The lower partials don't add much more than muddiness. A player who favors a deeper cup for general playing learns to eliminate the muddiness. But try playing the low register with a wide, shallow mouthpiece, particularly in context with a section, and you'll probably find that the sound is more agile, and projects much better. My son explained the acoustics to me, from his vast expertise. He plays bass trombone and tuba, and uses this effect to great advantage. A Sousaphone is not designed to produce low bass the way a tuba does. Playing outdoors, he plays Sousaphone with a mouthpiece very large in diameter, but quite shallow. He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power outdoors. Not only does he get a beautiful, lyric sound, he can be heard for miles. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power >outdoors. How then do you explain: 1. The fact that the first sound one hears from an approaching band is the bass drum. 2. If you have a neighbour with a theatre sound system the first thing you hear from outside is the output of the sub-woofer. 3. When a car with a loud stereo passes, you hear "doof-doof-doof..." and no tune. Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Jon, are you joking ? The second horn has to work harder to keep his embouchure intact, while the first horns embouchure is kept intact by all the challenges. What´s the matter with the low notes or even jumps higher than an octave ? Where is the problem ? If one has studied Josef Schantls Great Horn Method vol.2, one should never ever have problems with the wider leaps, but if people have just one sided cultivated the range from c1 upwards, no chance for low notes. And, has anyone with difficulties in the low range ever though about playing certain notes on the Bb-side. Well, it sounds unorthodox, but it works perfectly. Folks with difficulties in the bass range, cease lamenting & try what I have recommended. If you trust me, you will hear & feel the success very soon. But remember: it is not necessary to part in the low range as loud as possible, no, the noble art of playing nice soft sounds in the bass is more important as basso notes sound stronger anyway, even at subjectively the same loudness. If one has tendencies to fart loud in the bass, please change to trombone or bass trombone, but leave the horn alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Woodyard Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 7:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes I agree with Herr Pizka concerning "do you have time enough to think about " this or that when playing in concert. We are doing the Beethoven 6th soon. In times before I played First Horn but this time, it's Second. Second is by far the more difficult even given the wonderful solo passages for First. The frequent, almost two octave jumps usually result in merely touching on either the upper or the lower notes particularly in the Third Movt, "Lustiges Zusammensein der Landleute." The embouchure shifts are so rapid that to try to think about the low attacks would be impossible. Now, for those who recommend practicing the low notes with some particular technique, get real and practice your excerpts and most especially the Second Horn parts. Learn to make the rapid changes easily and you often will learn this only by studying the actual scores. IMHO, you will work much harder than the Principal does in most standard orchestral repertory. Your success in being a dead-on Second will determine how good the Principal will sound. Just adding to the nolse. Jon Woodyard Dover Symphony Orchestra Cape Community Band Delaware ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
In a message dated 1/26/2004 11:24:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Get the right equipment (mouth piece), follow the advice given by > successful professionals, play !!! If it is not your ranger, try to > improve it. If it still does not work, cultivate the other > ranges of the > horns compass & be better. Your advice on low playing couldn't be better. It's a skill that has to be worked on, and equipment is crucial, particularly the mouthpiece. By using a small mouthpiece, the player has probably learned to use pressure to achieve the upper range. Among the smallest mouthpieces I've seen used with professional effect, I don't recall seeing anything smaller than a Bach 7 or Holton MDC. Playing with a large mouthpiece requires the player to develop emboucher strength, but introduces far more 'muscle' into the cup, greatly increasing endurance, power, and control. It also allows the player to easily switch to a small mouthpiece for descant playing with an authentic, period sound. As I recall you use a very large mouthpiece and obviously stay in the kind of shape needed to support it. Any conditioning program teaches that an individual lifts properly with his legs, not with his arms. A proper leg lifter will long outlast the best arm lifter, and with so much excess strength, it will appear almost effortless. The only point I question is advocation of a deep mouthpiece for low notes. Having done my serious playing in Boston, years ago, I have always favored a large bowl shaped cup, and my professional training was heavily involved with preparing me to play fourth part with strength. The acoustics of the horn and mouthpiece are such that a shallower cup has a few advantages over a deep cup for effectiveness in the low range. I won't argue that a deep cup produces bass more easily, but for a specialist in low playing, clarity, articulation, and power are the really important attributes. A shallower mouthpiece doesn't waste a lot of energy producing the lowest partials. The lower partials don't add much more than muddiness. A player who favors a deeper cup for general playing learns to eliminate the muddiness. But try playing the low register with a wide, shallow mouthpiece, particularly in context with a section, and you'll probably find that the sound is more agile, and projects much better. My son explained the acoustics to me, from his vast expertise. He plays bass trombone and tuba, and uses this effect to great advantage. A Sousaphone is not designed to produce low bass the way a tuba does. Playing outdoors, he plays Sousaphone with a mouthpiece very large in diameter, but quite shallow. He can get more 'Muscle' into the mouthpiece, and doesn't waste much energy making low bass, which has no carrying power outdoors. Not only does he get a beautiful, lyric sound, he can be heard for miles. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
I agree with Herr Pizka concerning "do you have time enough to think about " this or that when playing in concert. We are doing the Beethoven 6th soon. In times before I played First Horn but this time, it's Second. Second is by far the more difficult even given the wonderful solo passages for First. The frequent, almost two octave jumps usually result in merely touching on either the upper or the lower notes particularly in the Third Movt, "Lustiges Zusammensein der Landleute." The embouchure shifts are so rapid that to try to think about the low attacks would be impossible. Now, for those who recommend practicing the low notes with some particular technique, get real and practice your excerpts and most especially the Second Horn parts. Learn to make the rapid changes easily and you often will learn this only by studying the actual scores. IMHO, you will work much harder than the Principal does in most standard orchestral repertory. Your success in being a dead-on Second will determine how good the Principal will sound. Just adding to the nolse. Jon Woodyard Dover Symphony Orchestra Cape Community Band Delaware ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Play everything an octave down for a few days (privately). If you never
play low for long periods, some muscles that you didn't know you had will
get very very tired, then happy.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
___
post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
You already sound like Hans, so you have nothing to think about but the music, for others it may be a bit more complicated. And what do successful professionals say--"sound like me and you'll be fine"--just as I thought. And of course, experiment in the practice room--not in the performance. Shel - Original Message - From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'The Horn List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:24 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes What a nonsense blah-blah, sorry. Do you have time enough for these thoughts while playing ? Surely not. follow the advice given by successful professionals,=== -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:51 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes You can refine most sounds. You cannot refine silence. Try to remember your best sounds. Take the sound of your best note and move it to other notes. Imagine you are Hans, deliver his sound in your mind. Try to imagine that sound quality in the bass tessitura, really concentrate on it when you go for the low notes. It should give you a boost. Work on controlling the product, your prior conditioning in the low range will be your foundation off which refinement takes place. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Dear Hans and List, > sound quality in the > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > _ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
What a nonsense blah-blah, sorry. Do you have time enough for these thoughts while playing ? Surely not. Get the right equipment (mouth piece), follow the advice given by successful professionals, play !!! If it is not your ranger, try to improve it. If it still does not work, cultivate the other ranges of the horns compass & be better. One has to explore ones abilities first, then look for the other things. I know, this is contrary to your education in your country, but it is the REALITY. Better to survive with the reality in mind, than to PERISH with the brain filled with (weird) dreams. A SURVIVOR on first chair (professional) since 1957 - not much far from 50 years on first chair, still playing Long Call in real performances. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of skirshner Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:51 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes You can refine most sounds. You cannot refine silence. Try to remember your best sounds. Take the sound of your best note and move it to other notes. Imagine you are Hans, deliver his sound in your mind. Try to imagine that sound quality in the bass tessitura, really concentrate on it when you go for the low notes. It should give you a boost. Work on controlling the product, your prior conditioning in the low range will be your foundation off which refinement takes place. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Dear Hans and List, > sound quality in the > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > _ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Addendum: don't work on controlling your lips, and just like you don't tell your lips how to say anything--you just think of what you want to say, the product, turn the key to "on", and "bingo". Pretty much forget how it feels--don't hurt yourself. Shel Original Message - From: "skirshner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > . Work on controlling the > product,> Shel > - Original Message - > From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > > > > Dear Hans and List, > > sound quality in the > > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > > > _ > > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > > http://wine.msn.com/ > > > > ___ > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
You can refine most sounds. You cannot refine silence. Try to remember your best sounds. Take the sound of your best note and move it to other notes. Imagine you are Hans, deliver his sound in your mind. Try to imagine that sound quality in the bass tessitura, really concentrate on it when you go for the low notes. It should give you a boost. Work on controlling the product, your prior conditioning in the low range will be your foundation off which refinement takes place. Shel - Original Message - From: "Jennie Ficks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Dear Hans and List, > sound quality in the > low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" > > Jennie (NOT JENNY!) > > _ > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > http://wine.msn.com/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Dear Hans and List, I will certainly give a try to the techniques you mentioned, as I am continually working at better attacks, stability and sound quality in the low range. There are times that I must agree it does sound like "farting" so the suggestions can't hurt. Jennie (NOT JENNY!) _ Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. http://wine.msn.com/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
The "spitting away a grain of rice" methode mentioned by Luke Zyla, is quite good & works in all ranges. The "force" method recommended by Jenny Ficks is as bad as all "force" methods. It would just help, to "fart" loud in the basso range, nothing else. What is more difficult & more to cultivate: loud (forte) or soft (piano) attacks ? The first thing to remember is "a relaxed but concentrated embouchure" or lip position. The next is the adjustment of the mouth (oral) cavity to be achieved by forming the same position as for certain vowels. In the case of these bass notes, think about the female main reporter on CNN when pronouncing Iraq. No joke. Third: bringing the lower jawe in a position, which seems to be protruding but placing it just opposite to the upper jaw. Got it ? Fourth: check about your mouthpiece. If it is the usual small diameter, flat cup tiny bore thick rim mouth piece, throw it away . It is no wonder then, that you got difficulties with basso notes. Fifth: start practising these notes step by step, every next day going further down the scale until reaching the low G, which must be available for EVERY horn player, no matter professional (!) or amateur, old or young. It is no shame, if a horn player (amateur & professional) has difficulties in the stratospheres above - say - bb2 (on top of the first ledger line on top of the staff), but it is a shame, if horn players - amateurs & professionals - have difficulties with low C & low G (first line from bottom in bass clef modern notation). It is a real blame for those teachers unable to prepare the players, unable to tell them about unusable mouth pieces etc. I am sure, if you follow my advice, you will get the low notes fine. But avoid this unpleasant "farting" in the bass. Play fine notes in the bass, full with sonority, no matter if required soft or loud, but never crude. And: there are very few soli in this low range, but it is important as SUPPORT for the other voices. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Slaff Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes Hey All, I was practicing some low scales the other day, when I noticed that I have difficulty getting a crisp attack on a good amount of low notes, specifically the region from low C (2 octaves below 3rd space C) to the F a P4 above it. What I realized is that I actually attack those notes by sticking my tongue sort of between my teeth, rather than at the back of my top teeth...very odd, and seems wrong as it gives them less of a definite start. When I tried tonguing them with my tongue in the more "proper" position, they wouldn't speak! So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? Thanks for your input! Steven Slaff ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Of course, would have told you. - Original Message - From: "skirshner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > And I suspect Arnold Jacobs would tell you pretty much the same > thing. > > Shel > - Original Message - > From: "Steven Slaff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 7:55 PM > Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > > > >> So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack > low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? > > > > Thanks for your input! > > Steven Slaff > > > > ___ > > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > set your options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Use a big reed in your mouthpiece--i.e., spread out that opening, use a full volume of air--not loud, but thick, hear the sound of that entrance, and tongue the way you normally do. Remember that the surface of those lips has to vibrate. And I suspect Arnold Jacobs would tell you pretty much the same thing. Shel - Original Message - From: "Steven Slaff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 7:55 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes >> So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? > > Thanks for your input! > Steven Slaff > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/skirshner%40ameritech.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
I'd say do whatever works. I find low notes are different for everyone, and whatever you practice just realize that amazing results are never overnight. For me (and this may not work for anyone _but_ me) I just did whatever felt natural and made up my own exercises to whatever I could play at the time. Nothing too tiring, nothing too rediculous. If you cannot play loudly, cleanly, or leap about there just start simple. Do small intervals at first at various dynamics, articulations. Invent some lip slur patterns, do whatever your lips feel they should do. -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Steven, I articulate between the teeth directly on the top lip in the low register. This is the only way I can get a clean release in that register. This seems to be a common technique with many players. In the middle and upper register, I articulate on the edge of the top teeth. Part of the tongue still touches the top lip. What do you consider the "proper" position? I know that some beginning band methods advocate articulating on the point where the top teeth meet the palate. I have never found this to be good as it results in an unclear attack. I read in a Suzuki book for beginning flute this advice "begin the note as if spitting out a grain of rice". I have used this visualization with many students with much success. CORdially, Luke Zyla 2nd horn, WV Symphony Orchestra email [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Steven Slaff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 8:55 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes > Hey All, > > I was practicing some low scales the other day, when I noticed that I have difficulty getting a crisp attack on a good amount of low notes, specifically the region from low C (2 octaves below 3rd space C) to the F a P4 above it. > > What I realized is that I actually attack those notes by sticking my tongue sort of between my teeth, rather than at the back of my top teeth...very odd, and seems wrong as it gives them less of a definite start. When I tried tonguing them with my tongue in the more "proper" position, they wouldn't speak! > > So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? > > Thanks for your input! > Steven Slaff > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lzyla%40charter.net > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
The best advice on low playing that I have received is to play low scales ( I start with the C scale on middle C and go down chromatically, doing each one up and down a couple of times). Now, the hard part...play them as loud and as staccato as you can. Try to get louder and shorter every time you practice them. It is something I have to force myself to practice, but it does get results. Debbie Arnold, who plays second horn in the Boise Philharmonic, suggested this exercise to me about three or four years ago, and it has definitely produced results. My low range is much more secure and centered, and the attacks are clearer. I hate doing the exercise...I make myself put it early in my daily routine so I get it over with...but it works. _ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Attacking Low Notes
Hey All, I was practicing some low scales the other day, when I noticed that I have difficulty getting a crisp attack on a good amount of low notes, specifically the region from low C (2 octaves below 3rd space C) to the F a P4 above it. What I realized is that I actually attack those notes by sticking my tongue sort of between my teeth, rather than at the back of my top teeth...very odd, and seems wrong as it gives them less of a definite start. When I tried tonguing them with my tongue in the more "proper" position, they wouldn't speak! So I'm kind of curious, where do you all put your tongue when you attack low notes? What works best for you/what (if anything) is proper? Thanks for your input! Steven Slaff ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
