Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Thank you for correcting me. Sorry for the confusion. Jim Engele Repair Technician Osmun Music, Inc. 781-646-5756 www.osmun.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Rob Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See? > I'm not much of a master of this stuff, but if you add 6% to 14 ft 12 times, > it will result in just over 28 ft. When you're adding a percentage to a > value repeatedly, your base for the percentage increases, so the value added > increases as well (similar to compouding interest vs. simple). So if each > half-step is achieved by the addition of 6%, the result will not be adding > 72%, but rather adding 101.2%. > (To test this, take the number 100 and multiply by 1.06; this gives you 106. > Multiply this by 1.06, and you get 112.36, not 112 even. Continue, and > after 12 times, you're at 201.2) > > > It would seem, if I remember correctly from my old acoustics class, that > doubling the length of the tubing will double the wavelength, thus lowering > the pitch an octave, and the six-percent rule certainly seems to support > this, as long as you run the numbers one 6-percent at a time. > > Robert S. Travis > > > The only two things worth aiming for are good music and a clean conscience. > -- Paul Hindemith > > > > > Here is some interesting information: > > > > A Horn in F is approximately 12 feet long. The Bb side of the Horn is > > approximately 9 feet long. If you want to lower the pitch of an > instrument > > you must add a little more than 6% to the length of the tube per semitone. > > Bb down to F is 5 semitones or 5 times 6%= 30%. 9ft times 130% is almost > > 12ft. F to D is 3 semitones or 18%. 12ft times 118% is around 14ft. D > to > > D an octave lower would be 12 semitones lower therefore 6% times 12 is 72% > > added to the length (doubling works to calculate frequency when going up > an > > octave but it will not work to calculate the length of a closed on one > end > > conical tube when lengthening the tube to sound an octave lower). 14ft(D) > > times 172% is about 24 ft.(D an octave lower). > > > > > > I learned about the 6% rule from an out of publication journal of the > > C.G.Conn Company. I forget the exact title but it was regarding the > > construction of musical instruments and was published in the 1950's I > > believe. > > > > > > Jim Engele > > Repair Technician > > Osmun Music, Inc. > > 781-646-5756 > > www.osmun.com > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com > My Inbox is protected by SPAMfighter 55457 spam mails have been blocked so far. Download free www.spamfighter.com today! ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Jim Engele at Osmun's wrote: Here is some interesting information: A Horn in F is approximately 12 feet long. The Bb side of the Horn is approximately 9 feet long. If you want to lower the pitch of an instrument you must add a little more than 6% to the length of the tube per semitone. Almost, but not quite right (probably close enough for garden hose). The first time, adding 6% is really close. The second semitone however, you need to add 6% of the length of the already longer tube. Each semitone must take into account the lengthening of the previous step (OK, half-step). The basis of equal-temperament tuning is that all 12 half-steps are equal. So where did the 6% number come from? The question to ask is: "What number, multiplied by itself 12 times, yields 2 (an octave)"? Thats the 12th root of 2, or 1.0594630943593, just a hair under 6%. Bb down to F is 5 semitones or 5 times 6%= 30%. Actually you multiply 1.059... times itself 5 times which is 1.33483985417003 or about 33.5%. D to D an octave lower would be 12 semitones lower therefore 6% times 12 is 72% added to the length Nope. Multiply 1.0594630943593 by itself 12 times and you get 2 !! Thats where the 6% came from. (doubling works to calculate frequency when going up an octave but it will not work to calculate the length of a closed on one end conical tube when lengthening the tube to sound an octave lower). Doubling does always work to move an octave. Especially for hosaphones. Sorry to pick nits. You can work on my horn any time Jim, as long as I get to tune it up afterwards (8D) Best, Jerry Jensen PS - How'd I do, Cabbage? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Well, actually, no. The 6% is accurate, but you multiply, not add. That is you multiply by 1.06 12 times to get an octave. Instead of 1.72, this give 2.01 (not exactly 2.00 because the 6% is slightly high). Therefore a D hose would be 14 1/4 feet, and a D basso hose would be 28 1/2 feet, given a 12 foot F hose. Another way of saying this is that you add the 6% to the length you currently have, and repeat this 12 times. I'm sure that someone else can explain this better than I did. Cabbage? Herb Foster --- Bob Osmun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here is some interesting information: > > A Horn in F is approximately 12 feet long. The Bb side of the Horn is > approximately 9 feet long. If you want to lower the pitch of an instrument > you must add a little more than 6% to the length of the tube per semitone. > Bb down to F is 5 semitones or 5 times 6%= 30%. 9ft times 130% is almost > 12ft. F to D is 3 semitones or 18%. 12ft times 118% is around 14ft. D to > D an octave lower would be 12 semitones lower therefore 6% times 12 is 72% > added to the length (doubling works to calculate frequency when going up an > octave but it will not work to calculate the length of a closed on one end > conical tube when lengthening the tube to sound an octave lower). 14ft(D) > times 172% is about 24 ft.(D an octave lower). > > > I learned about the 6% rule from an out of publication journal of the > C.G.Conn Company. I forget the exact title but it was regarding the > construction of musical instruments and was published in the 1950's I > believe. > > > Jim Engele > Repair Technician > Osmun Music, Inc. > 781-646-5756 > www.osmun.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
I'm not much of a master of this stuff, but if you add 6% to 14 ft 12 times, it will result in just over 28 ft. When you're adding a percentage to a value repeatedly, your base for the percentage increases, so the value added increases as well (similar to compouding interest vs. simple). So if each half-step is achieved by the addition of 6%, the result will not be adding 72%, but rather adding 101.2%. (To test this, take the number 100 and multiply by 1.06; this gives you 106. Multiply this by 1.06, and you get 112.36, not 112 even. Continue, and after 12 times, you're at 201.2) It would seem, if I remember correctly from my old acoustics class, that doubling the length of the tubing will double the wavelength, thus lowering the pitch an octave, and the six-percent rule certainly seems to support this, as long as you run the numbers one 6-percent at a time. Robert S. Travis The only two things worth aiming for are good music and a clean conscience. -- Paul Hindemith > Here is some interesting information: > > A Horn in F is approximately 12 feet long. The Bb side of the Horn is > approximately 9 feet long. If you want to lower the pitch of an instrument > you must add a little more than 6% to the length of the tube per semitone. > Bb down to F is 5 semitones or 5 times 6%= 30%. 9ft times 130% is almost > 12ft. F to D is 3 semitones or 18%. 12ft times 118% is around 14ft. D to > D an octave lower would be 12 semitones lower therefore 6% times 12 is 72% > added to the length (doubling works to calculate frequency when going up an > octave but it will not work to calculate the length of a closed on one end > conical tube when lengthening the tube to sound an octave lower). 14ft(D) > times 172% is about 24 ft.(D an octave lower). > > > I learned about the 6% rule from an out of publication journal of the > C.G.Conn Company. I forget the exact title but it was regarding the > construction of musical instruments and was published in the 1950's I > believe. > > > Jim Engele > Repair Technician > Osmun Music, Inc. > 781-646-5756 > www.osmun.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Here is some interesting information: A Horn in F is approximately 12 feet long. The Bb side of the Horn is approximately 9 feet long. If you want to lower the pitch of an instrument you must add a little more than 6% to the length of the tube per semitone. Bb down to F is 5 semitones or 5 times 6%= 30%. 9ft times 130% is almost 12ft. F to D is 3 semitones or 18%. 12ft times 118% is around 14ft. D to D an octave lower would be 12 semitones lower therefore 6% times 12 is 72% added to the length (doubling works to calculate frequency when going up an octave but it will not work to calculate the length of a closed on one end conical tube when lengthening the tube to sound an octave lower). 14ft(D) times 172% is about 24 ft.(D an octave lower). I learned about the 6% rule from an out of publication journal of the C.G.Conn Company. I forget the exact title but it was regarding the construction of musical instruments and was published in the 1950's I believe. Jim Engele Repair Technician Osmun Music, Inc. 781-646-5756 www.osmun.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See? > Hahaha, nevertheless it'd be in D. > > I suppose those would be for those 4th Hosaphone parts that were in Symphonie > Fantastique, but were later whited out when Berlioz realised they were just > too difficult to tune. Making a Hoseaphone sharp is easy. But, adding tubing to > make it flatter is hard. > > Of course this was before the valved/slide Hoseaphone I suppose. And it was > before PVC. > > -William > > In a message dated 8/9/2004 9:19:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > That would then make the 25+ foot hose be pitched in D basso? Whoo! I shudder > to think of navigating those close partials. > > Herb Foster > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com > My Inbox is protected by SPAMfighter 52597 spam mails have been blocked so far. Download free www.spamfighter.com today! ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Hahaha, nevertheless it'd be in D. I suppose those would be for those 4th Hosaphone parts that were in Symphonie Fantastique, but were later whited out when Berlioz realised they were just too difficult to tune. Making a Hoseaphone sharp is easy. But, adding tubing to make it flatter is hard. Of course this was before the valved/slide Hoseaphone I suppose. And it was before PVC. -William In a message dated 8/9/2004 9:19:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would then make the 25+ foot hose be pitched in D basso? Whoo! I shudder to think of navigating those close partials. Herb Foster ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
That would then make the 25+ foot hose be pitched in D basso? Whoo! I shudder to think of navigating those close partials. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Well if a D hose is 14 feet, than double that length would still be a D horn > > That would make it 28 feet, and so 25 feet would be close enough to work. If > anything it might be on the sharp side though hehe > > -William > > In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:51:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > This seems wrong to me. My F hosepipe horn is a bit over 12 feet. To > be in D it would need to be extended quite a bit, likely about 14 feet, > I'd guess, or more. It is a small bore, however, less than a half inch > bore, about 7/16ths as I recall. I have a plastic funnel on the end > and a bit of 3/8 copper tubing as a receiver on the mouthpiece end. > > Paul Mansur > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
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Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
- Original Message - From: "Paul Mansur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See? > This seems wrong to me. My F hosepipe horn is a bit over 12 feet. To > be in D it would need to be extended quite a bit, likely about 14 feet, > I'd guess, or more. It is a small bore, however, less than a half inch > bore, about 7/16ths as I recall. I have a plastic funnel on the end > and a bit of 3/8 copper tubing as a receiver on the mouthpiece end. Mine's small bore as well. The mouthpiece receiver/"leadpipe" is about 9" of 1/4" internal diameter PVC tubing, which goes into about 10' of 3/8" I.D. PVC, then about 2 1/2' of 1/2" I.D. PVC whick connects to a transmission fluid funnel with either duct tape or some small hose clamps and something with a 5/8" I.D. It fits nicely into my carry-on suitcase when I travel. John Baumgart ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
I'm sure that you are all correct in your measurements. When I cut my 25
foot hose in half, I deliberately cut a long half and a short half,
because I didn't know what the proper D length ought to be, and I figured
that if it came out flat, I could slice off little bits until it was
right. Then there was the funnel at one end - this funnel had more than
half a foot, slightly conical, before flaring. And my mouthpiece was
inserted into another short tube that fit over the hose. So the total
length was significantly longer than exactly 25ft/2.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Well if a D hose is 14 feet, than double that length would still be a D horn That would make it 28 feet, and so 25 feet would be close enough to work. If anything it might be on the sharp side though hehe -William In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:51:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This seems wrong to me. My F hosepipe horn is a bit over 12 feet. To be in D it would need to be extended quite a bit, likely about 14 feet, I'd guess, or more. It is a small bore, however, less than a half inch bore, about 7/16ths as I recall. I have a plastic funnel on the end and a bit of 3/8 copper tubing as a receiver on the mouthpiece end. Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
At 01:51 PM 8/8/04 -0400, Paul Mansur wrote: >This seems wrong to me. My F hosepipe horn is a bit over 12 feet. To >be in D it would need to be extended quite a bit, likely about 14 feet, You are correct. Using Morley-Pegge as a reference, a horn in D requires 175.25 inches or 14 feet, 7 and one quarter inches of tubing (garden hose). John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
On Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 12:54 AM, David Goldberg wrote: From: David Goldberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun Aug 8, 2004 12:54:36 AM US/Eastern To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See? Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ray & Sonja Crenshaw wrote: I found that a standard 25-foot hose is just about in D What? How so?... It was closer to D than any other key, and I rehearsed the Mozart #1 this way the night before the performance. But I began the performance with some shtick involving cutting the hose roughly in half, to bring the key up one octave. So it was about 12 feet long, still in D, but much better sound, wider spaces between tones, and a lot less resistance. A 50-ft hose would probably also be about in D, but hardly practical. More of a stuffy tube-a. And about 6 feet would make high-D-hose. You could cut the 25-ft hose in 4 of these to play quartertets. This seems wrong to me. My F hosepipe horn is a bit over 12 feet. To be in D it would need to be extended quite a bit, likely about 14 feet, I'd guess, or more. It is a small bore, however, less than a half inch bore, about 7/16ths as I recall. I have a plastic funnel on the end and a bit of 3/8 copper tubing as a receiver on the mouthpiece end. Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
At 11:14 AM 8/8/04 -0500, John Baumgart wrote: >My performance began similarly, with me tuning to the piano using a scissors. As a piano tuner with more than twenty years experience I can tell you that it is impossible to tune a piano properly with a pair of scissors. John Kowalchuk maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://home.ca.inter.net/~horn1 Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
Something doesn't compute, here. I recently played the rondo from Mozart #2
on a beer bong that was 13 feet, 4 inches long (excluding the "bell flare"),
and it was in Eb. I'm figuring roughly 14 feet to get D, 12 feet for F. My
performance began similarly, with me tuning to the piano using a scissors.
John Baumgart
- Original Message -
From: "David Goldberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ray & Sonja Crenshaw wrote:
>
> > > I found that a standard 25-foot hose is just about in D
> >
> > What? How so?...
>
> It was closer to D than any other key, and I rehearsed the Mozart #1 this
> way the night before the performance. But I began the performance with
> some shtick involving cutting the hose roughly in half, to bring the key
> up one octave. So it was about 12 feet long, still in D, but much better
> sound, wider spaces between tones, and a lot less resistance. A 50-ft
> hose would probably also be about in D, but hardly practical. More of a
> stuffy tube-a. And about 6 feet would make high-D-hose. You could cut
> the 25-ft hose in 4 of these to play quartertets.
>
>
> { David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
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Re: [Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Ray & Sonja Crenshaw wrote:
> > I found that a standard 25-foot hose is just about in D
>
> What? How so?...
It was closer to D than any other key, and I rehearsed the Mozart #1 this
way the night before the performance. But I began the performance with
some shtick involving cutting the hose roughly in half, to bring the key
up one octave. So it was about 12 feet long, still in D, but much better
sound, wider spaces between tones, and a lot less resistance. A 50-ft
hose would probably also be about in D, but hardly practical. More of a
stuffy tube-a. And about 6 feet would make high-D-hose. You could cut
the 25-ft hose in 4 of these to play quartertets.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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post: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Hornlist] Hose "A" Can You See?
>> ...See Spot Run, newly orchestrated for soprano, garden hose (in D) > I found that a standard 25-foot hose is just about in D What? How so? When I was deciding how to cut my hose (say, shouldn't this be done by a Rabbi?), I'd heard that a trombone is about 9-feet long, making a BBb tuba about 18-feet long... so I figured a horn in F must be a little longer than halfway between those two. If I was right (and since my hose plays a pretty mean key of F, I was... wasn't I???), how in the world can 25-feet be right for horn in D? Unless...at 25-feet, the partials are so close together that it plays in all keys at once! Puzzled, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
