Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes (was: Christmas, religious music, other questions)
> > Howard's note makes me think of a recent experience and realization - early > next year our orchestra will be performing Brahms 2nd Symphony, so yesterday > when I had some free time, went to hornexcerpts.org and listened to the > four different renditions of the solos. The funny thing is, when in > college, I and my friends idolized Myron Bloom and were always trying to > emulate his sound. Now, 35 years later, his is my least favorite of the > excerpts, mostly due to his dark, 'velvet-fog' tone quality. No point > intended, just an observation how tastes and perceptions can change over the > years... > > Fred > > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Howard Sanner < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Note well that I am a middle-aged, not-very-talented amateur. So my >> comments are definitely worth what I'm charging you for them, possibly even >> less. Note also that Kendall Betts disagrees with my preference of the >> FB310.125 over the FB210.125 on 8D's (and, probably, much else that I say >> about Lawson pipes below, too), and, to state the obvious, he's a much >> better, more skilled player than I can dream of being. I leave it up to you >> to decide which of us to pay attention to. ;-) >> >> ...snip... > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes (was: Christmas, religious music, other questions)
Note well that I am a middle-aged, not-very-talented amateur. So my comments are definitely worth what I'm charging you for them, possibly even less. Note also that Kendall Betts disagrees with my preference of the FB310.125 over the FB210.125 on 8D's (and, probably, much else that I say about Lawson pipes below, too), and, to state the obvious, he's a much better, more skilled player than I can dream of being. I leave it up to you to decide which of us to pay attention to. ;-) Finally, I agree with what Jonathan West posted, not that there's anything unusual about that! Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: (1) Due to a modest inheritance from a comfortable, rather than rich, uncle, I have the funds to buy a leadpipe. I play a 1968 Conn 8D. Once in the past, about 8 years ago, for about a week I played another Conn 8D with a Lawson leadpipe and found that my accuracy was much better than with my horn [snip] So my simple -- or perhaps simple-minded -- question is, is such a leadpipe likely to improve the accuracy of my playing, assuming all other factors remain roughly the same? IMHO, a different leadpipe will probably not improve your accuracy overall significantly. Also, if your 8D is from 1968, it probably (I'm tempted to say certainly) needs a valve overhaul if it has never had one. The valves have to be in top shape before you can make any meaningful evaluation of leadpipes. I don't want to spend $600 or more, then find out that I went in a wrong direction. If you're interested in Lawson pipes--and, IMHO, you should be--they used to allow you to try them for a while (30 days? a couple of weeks?) if you gave them a deposit. If you email [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call the no. on the Lawson web site, he could tell you their current policy. It's very easy to tape a leadpipe to the pipe already on your horn and switch between them very quickly just by moving the tuning slide and mouthpiece between the pipes. When the Lawson shop was still in Boonsboro, it was close enough for me to drive up and try equipment. So I literally tried every pipe they make on my N series 8D and my 2004 Eastlake 8D. The FB210.125 made a bigger difference on the Elkhart horn than the Eastlake horn; it didn't improve the Eastlake horn enough *for me* to put the money into it. (A professional, for whom every 1% or 2% improvement is "worth it," would probably think differently.) However, the FB310.125 was another story altogether: It helped the Eastlake horn quite a bit and helped the Elkhart horn even more than the FB210.125. I didn't see any downside to the 310. IMHO, the other Lawson pipes, though they probably work well on other horns, just make an 8D play different, not better. And, again in layman's terms please, are other aspects of horn playing or sound that are improved by a lead pipe? The Lawson pipe made my horns play better in about every way. Intonation improved. Response was faster. Intonation is better. Both horns have high A-flats, A's, and B-flats that are both in tune and that speak well. The slots are deeper and narrower. Did I mention that they play better in tune than with the stock pipes? Sound is more focused and centered than with the stock pipes, but with (much) less of the "velvet fog" that is the 8D sound. (This is kind of the tradeoff, IMHO, with the Lawson vs. stock pipes. OTOH, the whole point of changing the leadpipe is to make the horn play different.) And last, are there any besides Lawson that are worth looking at, in terms of improving accuracy? No, not to improve accuracy. The only way changing the leadpipe "improved" my accuracy was by making certain notes--several mentioned above--less squirrelly and thus easier to hit. On the whole, I'm just as inaccurate as ever (and seriously considering stopping playing because of it, but that's another matter, not for this thread). I have another Elkhart 8D, an L series horn, with a Seraphinoff copy of the pipe that was on the 300,000 Bloom played in Cleveland under Szell. This is my main horn these days. It has *slightly* less of all the improved qualities I listed about the Lawson pipe, but it also allows the horn still to sound and otherwise play like an 8D. With the Seraphinoff pipe the horn plays more or less like a very good 300,000. I like it a lot. I don't plan to replace it with a Lawson pipe, and I think the ultra-major player who sold this horn (several owners before me) made a real big mistake. Luckily for me. I know there are many other makers of "aftermarket" leadpipes. I have no experience with any of them. The bottom line is that the only way for you to know is to try the leadpipes for yourself. If you find one that works enough better for you than what's on the horn now that you think it's worth the money, buy it. If you don't think that, stay with your current leadpipe. It's really no different fro
[Hornlist] leadpipes
That's okay. Wasn't upset. At least I have better education of the proper way to discuss the mouthpipe now. I really was serious about wondering if there was a better way to "write" about that part of the horn. DMM yes, lead pipes are made up almost entirely of lead. Regards, Kimchi in Kansas City lead pipe = pipe made out of lead. leadpipe = first 15 or so inches of the horn ... also called mouthpipe. it was supposed to be funny ... I'll leave the next one for the official Prof. Cabbage ... he does a much better job. Best regards,Kimchi in Kansas City ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Leadpipes?
Well said, Doug - as always! Sandra Clark ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes?
Not to beat the tired horse here, but I'd like to underscore some things that have already been said on this subject and maybe add something. Most horn designs, whether 8-D, Engelbert Schmidt, Alexander, Holton, Geyer, Paxman, etc. are sound, and the player's choice as to which horn to pursue is a personal one based on the kind of sound they want to make and the way they want to (or are accustomed to) feel while playing the instrument. The variability between one specific example of a design and another comes down to the individual execution of that design. Every solder joint that is sloppy, every burr on a piece of cut tubing, every ferule under which the tubing does not align properly, every sharp edge on a valve port or casing, every slide that is pulled resulting in an expansion and subsequent restriction of the internal diameter, result in acoustic distortions. The more attention that is paid to all of these details the better a horn will play and the more consistency there will be from one example to another. It should be noted that the narrower the tubing at the point where the anomaly is occurring, the greater the effect that that anomaly will have on the playability/intonation. Hence the affect that lead-pipes can have. Steve Mumford makes a great point about how critical it can be to have the correct mouthpiece shank taper for the instrument. The valve section is a major problem because of all of the tubing-connection points. The major reason why compensating horns tend in general to play so poorly on the long side is because the air passes through the valve column twice. Notice that Engelbert Schmidt uses one piece of tubing between each valve instead of a ferule joining two pieces. I recently got a deal on an old Alex 107S compensating descant that allowed me to invest in having Ted Woehr in Pittsburgh rip it apart and reassemble it with attention to detail. This horn played very poorly on the b-flat side when I got it and had many pitch problems. After the rebuild, the b-flat side played as freely and in-tune as my single b-flat! Additionally he rebuilt all of the valve slides so that all of the slide legs fit to the bottom of the slide tube when the slides are in tune. This is not the first horn whose slides I've had rebuilt in this manner, and in each case the overall playability and intonation of the instrument was improved tremendously, and there has been no downside intonation-wise to having the slides a fixed length. Changing the position of the main slide has been all that was needed when dealing with adjustments necessitated by the temperature of the venue. Having said all of this, there is a lot of significance to having proper mathematics to the lead-pipe and bell branch/flare. On many of the venerable designs this was achieved through trial and error or maybe by chance. Modern work with computers has enabled builders to improve the acoustical design. Anyone who has played Alexanders over the years know how many horns had "problem" notes in the high register (usually either the A or the b-flat.) Dillon Music here in New Jersey has been stocking Alexes for the last 10-years and I have been amazed at the consistency of the instruments in terms of the relative free-blowing quality and high-range accuracy vs. the instruments from the 60's and 70's. I have gotten to know the younger Alexander, Philipp, who received "Meister" training and took over the day to day operation of the firm more recently (early 90's?). He explained to me that they redesigned the lead-pipe and bell of the 103 (the bell is now a medium large) and exerted strict quality control over the work being done by their valve-column supplier and that this was what resulted in the improvement in playability and consistency of their instruments. Lastly, I've owned two instruments that came with after-market lead-pipes and bells. In each case the replacement made the horn play fatter and darker, but in each case the agility, flexibility and intonation of the instrument was better with the original design. A poorly made lead-pipe can screw up an instrument, but the lead-pipe is only one in a long chain of workmanship issues that can make a horn play badly. If one is pursuing changes because one wants a different sound, it's probably best to investigate a different make/model that gives one the sound one seeks. The old maxim that one gets what one pays for is really applicable here. The more you can afford custom work the better the instrument will play. That said, each time you double your money, you don't double the improvement. The step between say an $8K Paxman and a $12K Schmidt is not going to yield the same step up as going from a $3K mass-produced horn to an $8K Paxman. Respectfully submitted, Doug Lundeen Assoc. Prof. of Horn Rutgers University www.brassrootstrio.com ___ post:
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes for horns
Stuart de Haro's 9019x pipe made a world of difference on my 10D. Gary Get Firefox!!http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes for horns
There is some confusion as to what a new leadpipe does/will do for an existing instrument. In my experience, leadpipes will not make an instrument sound different. Depending upon the taper of the leadpipe and the diameter of the receiver, the overall 'resistance' may be affected. In addition the overtone series may be evened out over the playing range or the upper overtones or lower overtones may be stretched further apart. Different people will feel comfortable with different scenarios. Some tapers, while not affecting the overall sound, may focus the tone and make it more 'pure'. Some people perceive this as more 'center' to the sound, while others will perceive the result as more projection. If you have a horn that has serviced you well for many years and are thinking about making a change, you might seriously consider trying out a new leadpipe and see if the result is worth pursuing. In addition to Atkinson, Patterson, and Lawson pipes for 8D's, I also recommend Dennis Houghton (Keller, TX). He put a pipe on one of our E series 8D's at the school and it made an amazing difference. I have done business with Mr. Patterson, Houghton, and the late Walter Lawson. All these products I can heartily recommend without any reservation. To be sure, they are different, but all are very acceptable modifications to existing Kruspe style horns. Sincerely, Dr. Eldon Matlick, Horn Professor, University of Oklahoma Principal Hornist, OK City Philharmonic 500 W Boyd Norman, OK 73019 (405) 325-4093 off. (405) 325-7574 fax Conn-Selmer Educational Artist http://ouhorns.com Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes
I've got a Patterson pipe on my early Texas 8D, but it came with the horn when I got it. I've played it against stock 8Ds from different periods, and I think that the biggest difference between the stock 8Ds and my horn is that the Patterson pipe just makes the horn play easier, and better in tune (though the long 3rd slides affect that somewhat). I just don't feel like I have to work as hard to get the sound I want. Ben --- Jim McDermott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So now you have a very good idea of what you are > paying for in a custom > > leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play > better? > > > > Kendall Betts > > Apprentice Horn Maker > > > I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on > this list, what > improved playing characteristics could I expect from > installing a custom > leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, > so what would change? > > I asked a couple of weeks ago for suggestions on a > new horn, and many > suggested that I just change the leadpipe. Give me > some good reasons. > > Jim McDermott > Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/corno42%40yahoo.com > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes
Jim McDermott writes: I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on this list, what improved playing characteristics could I expect from installing a custom leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, so what would change? With Lawson FB210.125 you could expect: more centeredness, better projection, better in tune Bb horn especially in upper register, quicker response, easier slurs, easier staccato. This is all assuming the valves are tight and the horn is in overall good condition. If the valves are leaking, a leadpipe makes for little or no improvement so they should be rebuilt before trying pipes. KB ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes
So now you have a very good idea of what you are paying for in a custom leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play better? Kendall Betts Apprentice Horn Maker I'm just curious, from all of the vast experience on this list, what improved playing characteristics could I expect from installing a custom leadpipe on my early Texas 8D? It plays well now, so what would change? I asked a couple of weeks ago for suggestions on a new horn, and many suggested that I just change the leadpipe. Give me some good reasons. Jim McDermott Lake of the Ozarks, Missouri ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes (was French Besson Trumpets)
Hello Dave and Listers: All true what you said about hours and hours of design and testing but I think your description of the manufacturing of a pipe is a bit simplistic. Since I'm working on a batch of pipes, learning to make them right, I'll list details and approximate times so the folks will know. Cut and heat treat approx. 2' of tubing - 2 secs. to cut, 1 hour or more to heat treat in furnace. Step end of pipe and rough step taper pipe on hand press - 10 min. Soap mandrel and pipe, screw mandrel on hydraulic press - 30 seconds Draw pipe - 30 seconds Remove pipe from mandrel, remove mandrel from press, clean both - 1 min. Heat treat pipe - 1 hour or so Cool pipe, heat pitch and fill pipe, cool again - 30 min. Cut bending block from wood and finish edges smooth - 15 min Measure precisely and cut receiver end of pipe exactly so it plays right when finished - 2 min (measuring precisely is a small step omitted by most manufacturers). Bend pipe - 30 seconds Get wrinkles in pipe, heat, remove pitch, throw in trash - 2 min Swear like a sailor, treat cuts, burns, broken fingernails, etc. - another 5 min or so Start over at top of list - 3 hours, 2 secs. Get good bend this time, remove pitch, 2 min. Make cap - first 7 steps above without rough step taper plus bead end on lathe - 2 hrs., 50 min., 2 sec. Make slide connector - inner and outer straight tube - cut, bead on lathe - 5 min Make cap ferrule cut and bead on lathe - 2 min. Cut blank from sheet metal, heat treat, press, grind, shape and finish hand guard - 15 min. Solder parts together, stamp name and number - 10 min or so Clean, buff and polish - 30 min. or more. If doing nickel silver, add some time for polishing. Now, these are all the processes, and you make parts like caps, ferrules, slide receivers in batches. If you have all your parts made, cleaned and ready to go, it is still at least an hour solid time from start (bending) to finish (assembly and buffing) to make a finished pipe if nothing goes wrong. So now you have a very good idea of what you are paying for in a custom leadpipe. And what is worth in order to play better? Kendall Betts Apprentice Horn Maker In a message dated 11/3/2006 10:55:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would translate "both hills and sips in them" as hills and dips along the taper, that is, the taper never decreasing, but sometimes increasing faster. Put a straight edge along it, and you'll see hills and dips. -- You're right, in that this is the only interpretation of the story that makes any sense. It reminds me of a story which Walt Lawson told me (I'll leave out details and names) about a suggestion to make a leadpipe with a straight taper. Walter had to point out that this had been proven to be a poor design for a horn. When you think about it, there is infinite variation in possible leadpipe designs, but only a very few actually work well. That's why makers get a lot of money for good pipes. They put a lot of work into the design. I've seen leadpipes being made. It takes only a few minutes of actual labor to draw a pipe. But only think of the hundreds of hours it takes to design the pipe, to install and maintain the machinery, and then to test and prove the pipe! Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
After years of collecting horns and playing every one I could get my hands on I've concluded that it takes two horns to be properly equipped to do justice to any music put before you. You need a 'big' horn to handle large orchestral works, and a smaller, very agile horn to handle the 'close up' ensemble playing. If you then want to compare instruments, you'll discover that other horns compare to one of your horns or the other. Once you decide on using two horns, the selection process completely changes, and some interesting bargains exist. The easiest way to get started using two horns is to pick up a used single Bb. The King/Schmidt four valve comes up regularly for $200-$250. It will take some work to get your two horns in sync for tuning so spend some time with a tuner. Don't be surprised to find your old horn has been out of tune for years, and you've adjusted to it. With a single Bb, the first thing to add is a crook that allows you to turn the 4th valve into an F attachment. Just having C, E, and G available as open F notes ties the tone to the traditional F horn sound. From this inexpensive beginning, you keep your feelers out for horns that do the job better than either of your horns. I've replaced my King Bb with a Paxman 42M that Bob Osmun gave me a great deal on. Its worth more now than when I bought it. -Original Message- From: debbie wenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:45:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Luke, What kind of 8D is it? It is perceived that depending upon the year of manufacture, there is a variance of quality. Beware. I have heard two arguments. Think along the lines of old automobiles. Some people want to zealously restore them to their original condition. Some want to customize. If you are a purist, and you believe in your horn, because of who you bought it from, or how it played for you when you tried it out, then, you don't want to change it. There are those, who say,"if you own an horn, it will be immensely improved by replacing the bell/leadpipe/valve caps/slide liners/shortening or lengthening the slides, with superior Lawson/German made/custom milled/ etc.etc. I like to believe that the manufacturers do some kind of testing to put the most effective leadpipe with the most effective bells, etc. In other words, if they, through test playing, found that a larger throat/ bigger bell, differently bent leadpipe, would make that horn play so much better, wouldn't they manufacture it that way then? And, if you do this, replace critical parts of your horn, the purists will call your horn a "Frankenstein" horn. I heard a person brag that his horn had an XXX bell, an leadpipe and valve section. How many professional sections have Frankenstein horns in their sections? I don't know. My strategy, is to buy your horn, whatever make, used from a professional. But then, a friend of mine is thrilled with his horn, because it was owned by a string of professionals. Maybe, that meant that it was not meeting their requirements. You can have fun customizing. But, also remember, the person who enthusiastically offers to customize your horn, rather than restore it, is out to earn some money. Of course! I am likely naive. I am not a renowed horn player. (HA) But because of that, I do believe, I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind. My knowledge is miniscule in comparison to the far greater wealth of knowledge on this list. But, when it comes to earning a living hornwise, no professional wants to hurt another. If there is a market for something, someone will gladly make money off it. That is free enterprise. I guess, you can see I am a purist, I have an Elkhart 300,000 series 8D, that was sold to me by a professional when he retired, and I was encouraged to make it into a Frankenstein horn by someone who knows his stuff, and I didn't, I only had it cleaned, and I am GLAD >From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: The Horn List >To: "The Horn List" >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:55:39 -0400 > >I put a Lawson pipe (FB210.125) on my K series 8D. It helped the high >register quite a bit. I combined it with a Lawson mouthpiece (S660 cup). >The combination is excellent. Try out the new leadpipe by taping it along >side the old pipe and see for yourself. Lawson will send you a variety to >try for a downpayment. >CORdially, >Luke Zyla >- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:46 AM >Subject: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D > > >hi- >I forgot to mention this in my post. > >What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson &
RE: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
Just a point of reference in the sports car world, for example Porsche Clubs in the US have folks competing in different type events. One set of events is focused on the performance of the car, that is, how fast you can drive it on a certain specified course. Another type of competition is based upon how well the car has been maintained as compared to its condition when it left the factory. One has to do with tweaking the car to make it really perform well. The other is "historical." Some folks like doing one thing, some folks like doing an other. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:05 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Debbie Wenger wrote: -snip- > And yes, part of my concern is to keep the historical value > of the horn. The sound is what matters, and historical value is for things that sit in a glass case somewhere. If you play the thing, make it to your liking limited by only your good judgement and your wallet. If your horn is of historical value, put it on the shelf and buy one to play! I realize I'm oversimplifying a bit but these two things - historical value and playing value - are really potentially in conflict. People don't commute in Model T's. Just my opinion. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
Debbie Wenger wrote: -snip- > And yes, part of my concern is to keep the historical value > of the horn. The sound is what matters, and historical value is for things that sit in a glass case somewhere. If you play the thing, make it to your liking limited by only your good judgement and your wallet. If your horn is of historical value, put it on the shelf and buy one to play! I realize I'm oversimplifying a bit but these two things - historical value and playing value - are really potentially in conflict. People don't commute in Model T's. Just my opinion. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
I want to clarify, I erred by addressing my post to Luke Zyla, but I do appreciate the input in your response. My ramblings were meant in general for learning horn players who do not know whether changing parts of your horn is a good idea or not. Other comments helped me clear my thoughts, I think the reason I am happy to leave my horn as it is, is because the person who had it before me was a pro, and liked it. This means, that any problems I have, likely have to do with the way I am playing, not the horn. And yes, part of my concern is to keep the historical value of the horn. Sincerely, Debbie Wenger From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: "The Horn List" Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:48:13 -0400 All I can say is that I wasn't pleased with the upper register and the focus of the low register on my 8-D. Walter Lawson sent me some mouthpieces and a couple of leadpipes and I found a combination that transformed a very good horn into a great horn. Simple as that. I am not concerned about maintaining any sort of integrity of an 8-D. After all, it is a mass produced horn. The goal of a company like Conn is to maximize profit by producing the best horn for the lowest price. This involves compromise. When you get into the next class of horn, you pay lots more for a superior instrument. When you are put on the line in a professional situation, you want the proper tools to express yourself. I will say that only experienced and well trained players should tinker with equipment. Younger or less experienced players may fall into the trap of looking for answers in places other than the practice room. I already had several years of professional performing and lots of training before I made the equipment improvements. My favorite horn of all time is my Paxman Model 20L. Manufactured in 1980, it is a magnificent piece of fine craftsmanship. I had to get the valves replated by Chuck Ward once. My son, who is a junior in horn performance at West Virginia University, plays it now. He sounds great on it. Boy, it would be great to have young chops again. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: "debbie wenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Luke, What kind of 8D is it? It is perceived that depending upon the year of manufacture, there is a variance of quality. Beware. I have heard two arguments. Think along the lines of old automobiles. Some people want to zealously restore them to their original condition. Some want to customize. If you are a purist, and you believe in your horn, because of who you bought it from, or how it played for you when you tried it out, then, you don't want to change it. There are those, who say,"if you own an horn, it will be immensely improved by replacing the bell/leadpipe/valve caps/slide liners/shortening or lengthening the slides, with superior Lawson/German made/custom milled/ etc.etc. I like to believe that the manufacturers do some kind of testing to put the most effective leadpipe with the most effective bells, etc. In other words, if they, through test playing, found that a larger throat/ bigger bell, differently bent leadpipe, would make that horn play so much better, wouldn't they manufacture it that way then? And, if you do this, replace critical parts of your horn, the purists will call your horn a "Frankenstein" horn. I heard a person brag that his horn had an XXX bell, an leadpipe and valve section. How many professional sections have Frankenstein horns in their sections? I don't know. My strategy, is to buy your horn, whatever make, used from a professional. But then, a friend of mine is thrilled with his horn, because it was owned by a string of professionals. Maybe, that meant that it was not meeting their requirements. You can have fun customizing. But, also remember, the person who enthusiastically offers to customize your horn, rather than restore it, is out to earn some money. Of course! I am likely naive. I am not a renowed horn player. (HA) But because of that, I do believe, I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind. My knowledge is miniscule in comparison to the far greater wealth of knowledge on this list. But, when it comes to earning a living hornwise, no professional wants to hurt another. If there is a market for something, someone will gladly make money off it. That is free enterprise. I guess, you can see I am a purist, I have an Elkhart 300,000 series 8D, that was sold to me by a professional when he retired, and I was encouraged to make it into a Frankenstein horn by someone who knows his stuff, and I didn't, I only had it cleaned, and I am GLAD From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]&g
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
I have a K series 8D that was and is a very fine horn. Having said that, it needed a valve job which Walter Lawson did 3 years ago. I was amazed with the result. After the valve job the horn was better than it had ever been, even when new. Notes centered much better, particularly in the high register. I could even play a high A that was focused and in tune on 1&2 as well as open (previously my only alternative) and also with the 3rd valve. Gretchen Zook Sent wirelessly via BlackBerry from T-Mobile. -Original Message- From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:48:13 To:"The Horn List" Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D All I can say is that I wasn't pleased with the upper register and the focus of the low register on my 8-D. Walter Lawson sent me some mouthpieces and a couple of leadpipes and I found a combination that transformed a very good horn into a great horn. Simple as that. I am not concerned about maintaining any sort of integrity of an 8-D. After all, it is a mass produced horn. The goal of a company like Conn is to maximize profit by producing the best horn for the lowest price. This involves compromise. When you get into the next class of horn, you pay lots more for a superior instrument. When you are put on the line in a professional situation, you want the proper tools to express yourself. I will say that only experienced and well trained players should tinker with equipment. Younger or less experienced players may fall into the trap of looking for answers in places other than the practice room. I already had several years of professional performing and lots of training before I made the equipment improvements. My favorite horn of all time is my Paxman Model 20L. Manufactured in 1980, it is a magnificent piece of fine craftsmanship. I had to get the valves replated by Chuck Ward once. My son, who is a junior in horn performance at West Virginia University, plays it now. He sounds great on it. Boy, it would be great to have young chops again. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: "debbie wenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D > Luke, > > What kind of 8D is it? It is perceived that depending upon the year of > manufacture, there is a variance of quality. > > Beware. I have heard two arguments. Think along the lines of old > automobiles. Some people want to zealously restore them to their original > condition. Some want to customize. If you are a purist, and you believe > in your horn, because of who you bought it from, or how it played for you > when you tried it out, then, you don't want to change it. > > There are those, who say,"if you own an horn, it will be immensely > improved by replacing the bell/leadpipe/valve caps/slide liners/shortening > or lengthening the slides, with superior Lawson/German made/custom milled/ > etc.etc. > > I like to believe that the manufacturers do some kind of testing to put > the most effective leadpipe with the most effective bells, etc. In other > words, if they, through test playing, found that a larger throat/ bigger > bell, differently bent leadpipe, would make that horn play so much better, > wouldn't they manufacture it that way then? > > And, if you do this, replace critical parts of your horn, the purists will > call your horn a "Frankenstein" horn. I heard a person brag that his horn > had an XXX bell, an leadpipe and valve section. > > How many professional sections have Frankenstein horns in their sections? > I don't know. > > My strategy, is to buy your horn, whatever make, used from a professional. > But then, a friend of mine is thrilled with his horn, because it was owned > by a string of professionals. Maybe, that meant that it was not meeting > their requirements. > > You can have fun customizing. But, also remember, the person who > enthusiastically offers to customize your horn, rather than restore it, is > out to earn some money. Of course! > > I am likely naive. I am not a renowed horn player. (HA) But because of > that, I do believe, I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind. My > knowledge is miniscule in comparison to the far greater wealth of > knowledge on this list. But, when it comes to earning a living hornwise, > no professional wants to hurt another. If there is a market for > something, someone will gladly make money off it. That is free enterprise. > > I guess, you can see I am a purist, I have an Elkhart 300,000 series 8D, > that was sold to me by a professional when he retired, and I was > encouraged to make it into a Frankenstein horn by someone who knows his > stuff, and I d
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
All I can say is that I wasn't pleased with the upper register and the focus of the low register on my 8-D. Walter Lawson sent me some mouthpieces and a couple of leadpipes and I found a combination that transformed a very good horn into a great horn. Simple as that. I am not concerned about maintaining any sort of integrity of an 8-D. After all, it is a mass produced horn. The goal of a company like Conn is to maximize profit by producing the best horn for the lowest price. This involves compromise. When you get into the next class of horn, you pay lots more for a superior instrument. When you are put on the line in a professional situation, you want the proper tools to express yourself. I will say that only experienced and well trained players should tinker with equipment. Younger or less experienced players may fall into the trap of looking for answers in places other than the practice room. I already had several years of professional performing and lots of training before I made the equipment improvements. My favorite horn of all time is my Paxman Model 20L. Manufactured in 1980, it is a magnificent piece of fine craftsmanship. I had to get the valves replated by Chuck Ward once. My son, who is a junior in horn performance at West Virginia University, plays it now. He sounds great on it. Boy, it would be great to have young chops again. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: "debbie wenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Luke, What kind of 8D is it? It is perceived that depending upon the year of manufacture, there is a variance of quality. Beware. I have heard two arguments. Think along the lines of old automobiles. Some people want to zealously restore them to their original condition. Some want to customize. If you are a purist, and you believe in your horn, because of who you bought it from, or how it played for you when you tried it out, then, you don't want to change it. There are those, who say,"if you own an horn, it will be immensely improved by replacing the bell/leadpipe/valve caps/slide liners/shortening or lengthening the slides, with superior Lawson/German made/custom milled/ etc.etc. I like to believe that the manufacturers do some kind of testing to put the most effective leadpipe with the most effective bells, etc. In other words, if they, through test playing, found that a larger throat/ bigger bell, differently bent leadpipe, would make that horn play so much better, wouldn't they manufacture it that way then? And, if you do this, replace critical parts of your horn, the purists will call your horn a "Frankenstein" horn. I heard a person brag that his horn had an XXX bell, an leadpipe and valve section. How many professional sections have Frankenstein horns in their sections? I don't know. My strategy, is to buy your horn, whatever make, used from a professional. But then, a friend of mine is thrilled with his horn, because it was owned by a string of professionals. Maybe, that meant that it was not meeting their requirements. You can have fun customizing. But, also remember, the person who enthusiastically offers to customize your horn, rather than restore it, is out to earn some money. Of course! I am likely naive. I am not a renowed horn player. (HA) But because of that, I do believe, I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind. My knowledge is miniscule in comparison to the far greater wealth of knowledge on this list. But, when it comes to earning a living hornwise, no professional wants to hurt another. If there is a market for something, someone will gladly make money off it. That is free enterprise. I guess, you can see I am a purist, I have an Elkhart 300,000 series 8D, that was sold to me by a professional when he retired, and I was encouraged to make it into a Frankenstein horn by someone who knows his stuff, and I didn't, I only had it cleaned, and I am GLAD From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: "The Horn List" Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:55:39 -0400 I put a Lawson pipe (FB210.125) on my K series 8D. It helped the high register quite a bit. I combined it with a Lawson mouthpiece (S660 cup). The combination is excellent. Try out the new leadpipe by taping it along side the old pipe and see for yourself. Lawson will send you a variety to try for a downpayment. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:46 AM Subject: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D hi- I forgot to mention this in my post. What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson leadpipes on and 8D (or Patterson Conversion -although I have only hea
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
Luke, What kind of 8D is it? It is perceived that depending upon the year of manufacture, there is a variance of quality. Beware. I have heard two arguments. Think along the lines of old automobiles. Some people want to zealously restore them to their original condition. Some want to customize. If you are a purist, and you believe in your horn, because of who you bought it from, or how it played for you when you tried it out, then, you don't want to change it. There are those, who say,"if you own an horn, it will be immensely improved by replacing the bell/leadpipe/valve caps/slide liners/shortening or lengthening the slides, with superior Lawson/German made/custom milled/ etc.etc. I like to believe that the manufacturers do some kind of testing to put the most effective leadpipe with the most effective bells, etc. In other words, if they, through test playing, found that a larger throat/ bigger bell, differently bent leadpipe, would make that horn play so much better, wouldn't they manufacture it that way then? And, if you do this, replace critical parts of your horn, the purists will call your horn a "Frankenstein" horn. I heard a person brag that his horn had an XXX bell, an leadpipe and valve section. How many professional sections have Frankenstein horns in their sections? I don't know. My strategy, is to buy your horn, whatever make, used from a professional. But then, a friend of mine is thrilled with his horn, because it was owned by a string of professionals. Maybe, that meant that it was not meeting their requirements. You can have fun customizing. But, also remember, the person who enthusiastically offers to customize your horn, rather than restore it, is out to earn some money. Of course! I am likely naive. I am not a renowed horn player. (HA) But because of that, I do believe, I have nothing to lose by speaking my mind. My knowledge is miniscule in comparison to the far greater wealth of knowledge on this list. But, when it comes to earning a living hornwise, no professional wants to hurt another. If there is a market for something, someone will gladly make money off it. That is free enterprise. I guess, you can see I am a purist, I have an Elkhart 300,000 series 8D, that was sold to me by a professional when he retired, and I was encouraged to make it into a Frankenstein horn by someone who knows his stuff, and I didn't, I only had it cleaned, and I am GLAD From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: "The Horn List" Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 05:55:39 -0400 I put a Lawson pipe (FB210.125) on my K series 8D. It helped the high register quite a bit. I combined it with a Lawson mouthpiece (S660 cup). The combination is excellent. Try out the new leadpipe by taping it along side the old pipe and see for yourself. Lawson will send you a variety to try for a downpayment. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:46 AM Subject: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D hi- I forgot to mention this in my post. What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson leadpipes on and 8D (or Patterson Conversion -although I have only heard of these played in NYC and Hollywood, correct me if I'm wrong I am trying to become less ignorent here) I have herd from someone a while ago that a Lawson leadpipe really "improved" their 8D. There isn't anything I want to improve about my horn, except the really stuffy, resistant, impossible high range as compared to many other horns I've tried, and the fact that I need to take a breath every 2-3 measures. again I ask, is this likely faults in my technique or could it be the nature or large horns with a deep mouthpiece, or both? thanks again, Dave M. Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lzyla%40charter.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/vtagirl%40hotmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
I put a Lawson pipe (FB210.125) on my K series 8D. It helped the high register quite a bit. I combined it with a Lawson mouthpiece (S660 cup). The combination is excellent. Try out the new leadpipe by taping it along side the old pipe and see for yourself. Lawson will send you a variety to try for a downpayment. CORdially, Luke Zyla - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:46 AM Subject: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D hi- I forgot to mention this in my post. What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson leadpipes on and 8D (or Patterson Conversion -although I have only heard of these played in NYC and Hollywood, correct me if I'm wrong I am trying to become less ignorent here) I have herd from someone a while ago that a Lawson leadpipe really "improved" their 8D. There isn't anything I want to improve about my horn, except the really stuffy, resistant, impossible high range as compared to many other horns I've tried, and the fact that I need to take a breath every 2-3 measures. again I ask, is this likely faults in my technique or could it be the nature or large horns with a deep mouthpiece, or both? thanks again, Dave M. Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lzyla%40charter.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
You need to take your horn to an expert: Patterson, Atkinson, or Lawson. Atkinson improved my old 8D considerably by replating the "leaky" valves. He also added his design of leadpipe and bell branch. I believe it was fixing the "leaky" valves that improved the high range and made the whole horn less work to play. From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 04:46:30 GMT hi- I forgot to mention this in my post. What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson leadpipes on and 8D (or Patterson Conversion -although I have only heard of these played in NYC and Hollywood, correct me if I'm wrong I am trying to become less ignorent here) I have herd from someone a while ago that a Lawson leadpipe really "improved" their 8D. There isn't anything I want to improve about my horn, except the really stuffy, resistant, impossible high range as compared to many other horns I've tried, and the fact that I need to take a breath every 2-3 measures. again I ask, is this likely faults in my technique or could it be the nature or large horns with a deep mouthpiece, or both? thanks again, Dave M. Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/melvinbaldwin%40hotmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D
hi- I forgot to mention this in my post. What have people's experiences been with putting Lawson or Patteson leadpipes on and 8D (or Patterson Conversion -although I have only heard of these played in NYC and Hollywood, correct me if I'm wrong I am trying to become less ignorent here) I have herd from someone a while ago that a Lawson leadpipe really "improved" their 8D. There isn't anything I want to improve about my horn, except the really stuffy, resistant, impossible high range as compared to many other horns I've tried, and the fact that I need to take a breath every 2-3 measures. again I ask, is this likely faults in my technique or could it be the nature or large horns with a deep mouthpiece, or both? thanks again, Dave M. Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces
Timothy A. Johnson wrote: >Unless your horn is unusual, you don't need to seal anything with duct tape Sealing your embouchure with duct tapes prevents bad attacks, wrong notes, sloppy slurs, and major intonation problems. Try it. Steve Ovitsky ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces
Unless your horn is unusual, you don't need to seal anything with duct tape - as the leadpipe should lead to your first tuning slide (that's the seal). All you need to do is tape the trial leadpipe alongside the original one, then rotate the tuning slide so the leadpipe side goes into the trial leadpipe. Timothy A. Johnson Information Technologies Northwestern College St. Paul, Minnesota http://tajohnson.org -Original Message- From: Josh Cheuvront Sent: Tuesday, 12 August, 2003 12:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces Yes, I noticed that part. I wonder how well tape can seal the two pipes, and especially if it keeps the leadpipe completely steady? I love duct tape just as much as the next guy (even used to have a wallet made completely from "kentucky chrome"), but the slightest leak or movement in a leadpipe makes a huge difference, especially in the extreme registers. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces
Yes, I noticed that part. I wonder how well tape can seal the two pipes, and especially if it keeps the leadpipe completely steady? I love duct tape just as much as the next guy (even used to have a wallet made completely from "kentucky chrome"), but the slightest leak or movement in a leadpipe makes a huge difference, especially in the extreme registers. - Original Message - From: "Jonell Lindholm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Josh Cheuvront" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces > [snip] > > Seriously though, how much does it cost to have a horn converted > > into a removable leadpipe setup? I'm assuming this is the only way one > can > > try out other leadpipes effectively. > > Walter Lawson suggests taping the trial leadpipe to the horn for testing, > then permanently installing when you have determined which mouthpipe you > like. > > [snip] > -- > > Jonell Lindholm > Reisterstown MD USA > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Leadpipes, Mouthpieces
I apologize if this topic has already been exhaustively covered in the recent past, but I can't get the archives to come up from hornplayer.net. While we're on the topic of leadpipes, I have a few questions I've been dying to ask. I play on a Lewis, which I believe has an Alexander leadpipe on it, or at least that's what I've been told. I switched to a new mouthpiece back in January and have, in the last month or so, finally really "settled in". The new mouthpiece has allowed me to play very comfortably up to high "C" and beyond. Since settling in with the new mouthpiece, I've really been trying to make myself consistent on the entire range of the horn. I've found that certain pitches are problematic for me, and I'm not sure why. I wonder if perhaps a change in leadpipes could make a difference. On the pitches that I have problems with (its not a valve thing, I've already ruled that out), I feel like I'm really fighting the horn. Certain notes, G1, Ab2, just don't seem to have a "pocket". I know that the problems could be from a myriad of things, but could a poor leadpipe possibly be the problem? One thing I've never been "into" is the game of constant brainless equiptment switching. I've always been intrigued by players who switch mouthpieces and pipes more often than they change underwear. I've noticed that these people tend to be late to everything, always running in with their glasses fogged, knocking over stands, music either missing or out of order. Then, under the menacing glare of the conductor, they hunt through their bag o' m'pieces with grim concentration for that "holy grail" of mouthpieces. I actually suggested to one friend that they have some dice made, one with a leadpipe on each side, and the other with all their mouthpieces. I suppose you could even use them to shoot craps during long rests. Seriously though, how much does it cost to have a horn converted into a removable leadpipe setup? I'm assuming this is the only way one can try out other leadpipes effectively. There's NO way I'm going to spend $650.00 until I take er' for a test drive. Most importantly, will this conversion change how the horn feels, plays, etc. in ANY way, positive or negative? Thanks! Josh Joshua D. Cheuvront ~Freelance Hornist~ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
