RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
Hi List, I usually try to avoid controversy or blatant advertising on the horn list but I feel I need to respond to the comments made by THE VOICE regarding cryogenic processing. His unsupported remarks are a direct attack on my integrity and have no place on this list. If Mr. THE VOICE reads our promotional literature carefully he will notice that nowhere do we make specific claims for the results to be obtained by cryogenically processing. What we do say, and I reiterate here, is that we, and over 99% of the several hundred customers who have had instruments processed by us, feel that the instruments were improved and that the process was worth the time and the money. The effects of cryogenic processing are subtle and definitely fall into the last five per cent of horn modifications, for players looking to get as much as they can from their equipment. It's not for student instruments or for casual (I don't mean amateur) players. The tests recently undertaken at Tufts University by Selmer, utilizing a panel of high school students and weekend warriors are a case in point. You don't get smart answers by asking dumb questions. Since Mr. THE VOICE writes under a pseudonym we have no way of knowing what qualifications he has for making his attack. I have to suspect that he's an engineer or a science type who knows that the physical changes that take place in steel when cryogenically treated have no parallel in brass. Therefore he concludes that, since he hasn't measured any change, none has taken place. (Remember, these are the same guys who proved that the material or thickness of an instrument has no effect on the sound.) It seems to me that, when confronted by an unexplained phenomenon that has been confirmed by many experienced musicians, the thoughtful scientist would be looking for an experiment to explain it, not casually dismissing it as a scam. Those of us who have spent years working to improve instruments and the playing experience for our customers work in a subtle realm and deal in differences in instruments and playing qualities that are invisible and inaudible to the laymen, or even to many musicians. Indeed, a lot of the tonal differences we sweat over don't travel much past the podium. Lots of good players can't hear (or are indifferent to) loose valves, red brass, garlands, (pitch), etc., but that doesn't mean that everyone should ignore these qualities. Cryogenics is one more arrow in the quiver. A candidate for a job in a professional orchestra (not Chicago, New York, Boston, just a small regional orchestra) will have to audition against 100-200 people to win his job. That's just the number who the audition committee actually hears, not all the applicants. Those are pretty tough odds. Studies of stress have shown that being a principal horn player is one of the most stressful of jobs. These people need the best and most finely tuned equipment they can get. Don't ask me to throw away a valuable tool without a better supported analysis than the one presented here. Bob Osmun www.osmun.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of THE VOICE OF THE GUILD Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:16 PM To: hornlist Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn from: Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Cryogenically Frozen horn I was poking around looking at used horns on the Internet and found one that said the horn had been cryogenically frozen by Osmun - could anyone explain this process to me, please? (The horn wasn't for sale at Osmun, it was at Dillon Music in NJ.) Steve, Cryogenically freezing a horn is a proven method of removing money from your pocket. Enjoy the rest of the posts, but this is the truth. THE VOICE ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
Dear Friends, I don't know the identity of the mystery E-Mailer I have no dog in this particular fight. Still all, I believe it's possible Mr. or Ms. Voice was just poking fun (as folks do on this list sometimes) rather than attacking integrity -- pretty much like pointing out that Walt Disney would spare no expense in the pursuit of making money. However that may be (or possibly may not be), I strongly suspect (on the basis of no analysis zero experience) that it would be advisable for most of us who are in operational contact with brass instruments to spend more time practicing them less money freezing them. If I'm wrong, it's not for the 1st time. In my case, I'm guessing the tangible benefit I would get from cryogenic treatment of my horn would be about the same as the tangible benefit I would get from taking a couple of ibuprofen tablets before a performance, I don't know. The main thing about cryogenic treatment I don't understand is whether it can be reversed. That is, suppose I have my Josef Lidl compensating double horn or my Holton Farkas Model full double horn treated cryogenically after the treatment I decide the horn plays worse than before the treatment. How do I get the cryogenic treatment undone? Heating beyond a certain point would melt the solder, no? I'm guessing that nothing can be done to reverse cryogenic treatment of brass instruments. If I have my horn frozen don't like the result, all I can do is sell off the treated horn buy an untreated replacement. Then again, when I list the treated horn on eBay, I can sing the praises of its cryogenic enhancement to bid up the price. And despite the fact I have no dog in the cryogenics fight, I do have experience with Osmun Brass -- positive experience. Years ago I bought 1 of their close-out Yamaha YHR-666 horns for $1,050 brand new. Great horn. Great deal. Shucks, they're going for more than that nowadays after 20+ years of use -- when you can even find 1 at all (they're becoming semi-rare). I gave the horn to my then-teenage son, who gave up horn after a couple of years sold the YHR-666 (for more than Osmun Brass charged for it new) used the proceeds to buy a rock roll electronic keyboard instrument. So it goes. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ I feel I need to respond to the comments made by THE VOICE regarding cryogenic processing. His unsupported remarks are a direct attack on my integrity and have no place on this list. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
I am an engineer, and I don't find it difficult to believe a small improvement can be had through the process. My suspicion is that the low temperature contraction generates forces that can stretch stresses out of parts that may have been forced to mate during assembly. With a little thought, it should be possible to duplicate that condition and directly measure the effect of cryogenic cooling. It wouldn't surprise me if the effect comes from differential cooling, in which case, running the instrument through the cycle several times, rather tha soaking, might have more effect. This theory also predicts that some horns will respond more than others. When doing product engineering, there are a never ending string of problems that must be solved. Gross problems must be solved first before the more subtle ones are recognizable above the noise. Cryogenics isn't going to make a noticible difference unless the horn is pretty well debugged to start with. If you want to try something that I have found can make a huge difference to a factory horn, buy an adjustible blade, 15/32 reamer, from McMaster-Carr, and open up all the internal solder joints to a full .468 bore. I'm beginning to believe the small constrictions of the bore define distinct resonating chambers that subtly color the overtones. You'll be amazed at how much crud come out before a .468 ball will pass. -Original Message- From: Robert Osmun [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'THE VOICE OF THE GUILD' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:32:26 -0400 Subject: RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn Hi List, I usually try to avoid controversy or blatant advertising on the horn list but I feel I need to respond to the comments made by THE VOICE regarding cryogenic processing. His unsupported remarks are a direct attack on my integrity and have no place on this list. If Mr. THE VOICE reads our promotional literature carefully he will notice that nowhere do we make specific claims for the results to be obtained by cryogenically processing. What we do say, and I reiterate here, is that we, and over 99% of the several hundred customers who have had instruments processed by us, feel that the instruments were improved and that the process was worth the time and the money. The effects of cryogenic processing are subtle and definitely fall into the last five per cent of horn modifications, for players looking to get as much as they can from their equipment. It's not for student instruments or for casual (I don't mean amateur) players. The tests recently undertaken at Tufts University by Selmer, utilizing a panel of high school students and weekend warriors are a case in point. You don't get smart answers by asking dumb questions. Since Mr. THE VOICE writes under a pseudonym we have no way of knowing what qualifications he has for making his attack. I have to suspect that he's an engineer or a science type who knows that the physical changes that take place in steel when cryogenically treated have no parallel in brass. Therefore he concludes that, since he hasn't measured any change, none has taken place. (Remember, these are the same guys who proved that the material or thickness of an instrument has no effect on the sound.) It seems to me that, when confronted by an unexplained phenomenon that has been confirmed by many experienced musicians, the thoughtful scientist would be looking for an experiment to explain it, not casually dismissing it as a scam. Those of us who have spent years working to improve instruments and the playing experience for our customers work in a subtle realm and deal in differences in instruments and playing qualities that are invisible and inaudible to the laymen, or even to many musicians. Indeed, a lot of the tonal differences we sweat over don't travel much past the podium. Lots of good players can't hear (or are indifferent to) loose valves, red brass, garlands, (pitch), etc., but that doesn't mean that everyone should ignore these qualities. Cryogenics is one more arrow in the quiver. A candidate for a job in a professional orchestra (not Chicago, New York, Boston, just a small regional orchestra) will have to audition against 100-200 people to win his job. That's just the number who the audition committee actually hears, not all the applicants. Those are pretty tough odds. Studies of stress have shown that being a principal horn player is one of the most stressful of jobs. These people need the best and most finely tuned equipment they can get. Don't ask me to throw away a valuable tool without a better supported analysis than the one presented here. Bob Osmun www.osmun.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of THE VOICE OF THE GUILD Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:16 PM To: hornlist Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn from: Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
There was a 667V listed, and sold I assume, on hornplayer.net that said it had been cryogenically frozen. I emailed the seller and asked him about it and he said it did make a difference. Whether or not it was improvement was subjective, but he said it definetly didn't make it any worse. He said that he had it done after the horn was fairly well broken in, so the effects were expectedly less dramatic. Exactly like it says on the Resonance Enhancement page, he said the effects were easily felt but sort of hard to describe. Now I wonder, would this process work on a lacquered horn? Chris --- Pandolfi, Orlando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having tested horns that underwent this process both before and after, there is undoubtedly a difference. Some horns were much improved, in my opinion. Other horns didn't seem to need the process. As for the horn on the internet...who is to say? Nevertheless, I would not be quite so dismissive. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of THE VOICE OF THE GUILD Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:16 PM To: hornlist Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn from: Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Cryogenically Frozen horn I was poking around looking at used horns on the Internet and found one that said the horn had been cryogenically frozen by Osmun - could anyone explain this process to me, please? (The horn wasn't for sale at Osmun, it was at Dillon Music in NJ.) Steve, Cryogenically freezing a horn is a proven method of removing money from your pocket. Enjoy the rest of the posts, but this is the truth. THE VOICE ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
Osmun folks could probably answer better, but I would think the process would cause the lacquer to fall off. Difference in thermal coefficients between the metal and the lacquer would cause differential dimension changes causing the bond between the metal and lacquer to fail. Or so I would think. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tedesco Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:32 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn There was a 667V listed, and sold I assume, on hornplayer.net that said it had been cryogenically frozen. I emailed the seller and asked him about it and he said it did make a difference. Whether or not it was improvement was subjective, but he said it definetly didn't make it any worse. He said that he had it done after the horn was fairly well broken in, so the effects were expectedly less dramatic. Exactly like it says on the Resonance Enhancement page, he said the effects were easily felt but sort of hard to describe. Now I wonder, would this process work on a lacquered horn? Chris --- Pandolfi, Orlando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having tested horns that underwent this process both before and after, there is undoubtedly a difference. Some horns were much improved, in my opinion. Other horns didn't seem to need the process. As for the horn on the internet...who is to say? Nevertheless, I would not be quite so dismissive. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of THE VOICE OF THE GUILD Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:16 PM To: hornlist Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn from: Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Cryogenically Frozen horn I was poking around looking at used horns on the Internet and found one that said the horn had been cryogenically frozen by Osmun - could anyone explain this process to me, please? (The horn wasn't for sale at Osmun, it was at Dillon Music in NJ.) Steve, Cryogenically freezing a horn is a proven method of removing money from your pocket. Enjoy the rest of the posts, but this is the truth. THE VOICE ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Cryogenicall Frozen horn
from: Steve Freides [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Cryogenically Frozen horn I was poking around looking at used horns on the Internet and found one that said the horn had been cryogenically frozen by Osmun - could anyone explain this process to me, please? (The horn wasn't for sale at Osmun, it was at Dillon Music in NJ.) Steve, Cryogenically freezing a horn is a proven method of removing money from your pocket. Enjoy the rest of the posts, but this is the truth. THE VOICE ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
