[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes
Don't forget the leadpipes that have a sleeve over the first few inches and a guard plate after that. I had one particularly acidic customer who had eaten an obvious hole right next to the guard plate so I put an artistic little patch there, but what I couldn't see was that the pipe had eaten from the inside and had rotted out all under the plate. It was leaking from 10 different directions, but all hidden. That one played kind of stuffy. I uttered one or two of the magic words before I finally figured out what was going on. And yes, horn leadpipes do suffer the same indignities as trombone pipes, except that horn players usually do actually clean the leadpipe out every 5 years or so, so that's an important difference from trombone players. (I'm just saying) - Steve David wrote: Unlike a trombone where the leadpipe is contained or hidden by the outer slide, on a horn what you see from the mouthpiece to the change valve is the leadpipe. It is easy to see any damage, dents, dings, and other things like red rot [dezincification]. any holes that happen will be pretty visible if you keep and eye on it. and yes the typical metal problems occurr just as much as any other instrument.paxmaha Kathy wrote: I have a question on very old horns and lead pipes. My husband owns several old trombones (1940 and older) that have had to have the lead pipe replaced. When the pipes were removed, at best they looked like swiss cheese, at worse they came out in pieces. Can the same thing happen to the inside of a horn lead pipe (brass is brass after all) and how would you tell if your old trusty horn needs a new lead pipe? A trombone slide you can look through, but even then you can't tell if that pipe will come out in one piece or not. Kathy Anaheim, CA P.S. Do not watch a slide guru work on a trombone slide if you are the least bit faint of heart. Scary. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes
Steve, you forgot to mention trying the good, custom leadpipes on the really expensive but ruined horn after you tape up the holes. I certainly agree that a valve job is the first step in improving an instrument, if the valves are shot. It might not be the only step, though. KB Steve Mumford writes: Eva, you kind of glossed right over the more significant part of making that 179 play better. I tend to forget that people are trying out these replacement leadpipes on old worn out horns with leaky valves and tuning slides. Sure the FB-210 is a fine pipe, but I guarantee, the valve rebuild is what made the horn play. Putting a fine new leadpipe on a worn, leaky horn is just buzzing into the wind. Here's an experiment for everyone. Buy a new custom horn. Get something nice, something between maybe 8 to 12,000 dollars. Take an electric drill and drill 4 big holes in it. Now you have the effect of having 4 leaky valves. Buy several good custom leadpipes and try them on the horn. Now put some tape over the holes and try the original pipe. Which is better? Years ago I sold a horn to a fellow. I never really liked the horn very much, but he loved it, and for years he raved about how it was the best horn he owned. Of course it was. It was the only one he owned that didn't have leaky valves! - Steve Mumford Eva wrote: Many years ago, when I was a 'wee horn-playing lass', I had a Holton 179, which was a total dog. However, it was dramatically improved and made into a really fine horn by putting a Lawson FB-210 (if memory serves--it was many years ago) lead pipe on it. Of course it had a valve rebuild too. **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Leadpipes
Good point, Ken! That's precisely why we offer a 30 day trial period with our leadpipes. In the past year, I've made and sent out pipes for Conn 8D's, Holton 179 and 180, Alex 103, Berg, Kruspe, Atkinson, Paxman, Jiracek and Yamaha 667V and 668 horns. All types of players, too, from amateurs through serious students through professionals in major orchestras both in the US and abroad. Only one was returned from a Conn player who said she figured out her problems were more with her playing and not with her instrument. KB Ken Pope writes: One thing I have learned for certain in this business is that there are no definites. One man's trash is sometimes another man's treasure - and the same is true for leadpipes. The only way to tell for certain if a pipe (by ANY maker) is going to be better for your horn is to try it. All the claims by makers and players about the way certain pipes play refer only to THAT players experience (or THAT maker's claim). Sincerely Ken Pope **Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000301) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes
Eva, you kind of glossed right over the more significant part of making that 179 play better. I tend to forget that people are trying out these replacement leadpipes on old worn out horns with leaky valves and tuning slides. Sure the FB-210 is a fine pipe, but I guarantee, the valve rebuild is what made the horn play. Putting a fine new leadpipe on a worn, leaky horn is just buzzing into the wind. Here's an experiment for everyone. Buy a new custom horn. Get something nice, something between maybe 8 to 12,000 dollars. Take an electric drill and drill 4 big holes in it. Now you have the effect of having 4 leaky valves. Buy several good custom leadpipes and try them on the horn. Now put some tape over the holes and try the original pipe. Which is better? Years ago I sold a horn to a fellow. I never really liked the horn very much, but he loved it, and for years he raved about how it was the best horn he owned. Of course it was. It was the only one he owned that didn't have leaky valves! - Steve Mumford Eva wrote: Many years ago, when I was a 'wee horn-playing lass', I had a Holton 179, which was a total dog. However, it was dramatically improved and made into a really fine horn by putting a Lawson FB-210 (if memory serves--it was many years ago) lead pipe on it. Of course it had a valve rebuild too. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Leadpipes
At the risk of rampant "me too"-ism, I have to second Ken's statement here. My motto is "try the horn you buy", and a new pipe will make a new horn. In other words, try the pipe on your horn as you would a new horn, and consider that not everyone likes or plays the same instrument. Be open minded, and make your decision based on your experiences with your equipment. As the saying goes, "your mileage may vary." Another saying is "de gustibus non disputandum est."?(Latin scholars, did I get that right?) Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 3:05 pm Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Leadpipes One thing I have learned for certain in this business is that there are no definites. One man's trash is sometimes another man's treasure - and the same is true for leadpipes. The only way to tell for certain if a pipe (by ANY maker) is going to be better for your horn is to try it. All the claims by makers and players about the way certain pipes play refer only to THAT players experience (or THAT maker's claim). Sincerely Ken Pope "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brassartsunlim%40aol.com More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp000503 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Leadpipes
One thing I have learned for certain in this business is that there are no definites. One man's trash is sometimes another man's treasure - and the same is true for leadpipes. The only way to tell for certain if a pipe (by ANY maker) is going to be better for your horn is to try it. All the claims by makers and players about the way certain pipes play refer only to THAT players experience (or THAT maker's claim). Sincerely Ken Pope "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: leadpipes on 8D
It's good to realize though that historical value and playing value are not necessarily in conflict. Those old cats knew how to make a horn that sounded and played great in the old days. I've seen too many of those great old horns "modernized" so that they now sound bland, dead, "digital", whatever you want to call it. The way most newer horns sound. The magic was in those old parts that got thrown away. You really can't improve an old horn that has mechanical trouble (leaks) by adding new parts. Fix the leaky valves and slides and you may find the original leadpipe was pretty darn good! Having said that, it's very possible for an old leadpipe to be just worn out or damaged beyond use. Then you don't have much choice. Of course you should get my new leadpipe which is in trials right now but should be ready for production in the next couple of months. - Steve Mumford In a message dated 4/15/06 1:00:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Steve F writes: > The sound is what matters, and historical value is for things that sit in a > glass case somewhere. If you play the thing, make it to your liking limited > by only your good judgement and your wallet. If your horn is of historical > value, put it on the shelf and buy one to play! > > I realize I'm oversimplifying a bit but these two things - historical value > and playing value - are really potentially in conflict. People don't > commute in Model T's. > > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Leadpipes on 8d Luke Zyla's Post
Hornfolks My absolute opinion. If one purchases an 8d; one would wish to do his/her best effort to obtain an Elkhardt 8d. Especially L,M,N series and perhaps even the rarer earlier series. One may do quite a bit of shopping, searching & haggling with collectors of these wonderful horns; but it is WORTH it. I had an L series & loved it for 20 yrs. It got trashed on a Mexico City bus (not my fault). When they moved the factory to Texas, the quality of 8d's fell quite dramatically. I accidentally, due to the purposeful action of a dishonest music store owner in Alabama, obtained an 8d that I was told was an Elkhardt; however proved to be an hybrid (some Texas some whatever.) It was a piece of ; played out of tune; valves froze up; metal too thin for my taste . I got rid of it after 2 yrs, bought my Millenium Merker 2000 & loved it. Still have it; still love it but it is not the same as an 8d. If I could get another Elkhardt 8d I would fork over the $ in an instant if I had it. I understand the factory has moved to a different location & improved the quality of the 8d. I have not played any of these horns, therefore cannot offer my honest opinion; however should I come across one, the list will know my honest thoughts, both good and not so good. and as far as placing a different model of leadpipe on a horn. One wishes to be most cautious in doing this. I had a (particular unnamed brand) of leadpipe installed on my old Alexander Mainz horn; which; prior to this, played perfectly on tune; tested perfect on a chromatic strobotuner. After the leadpipe was installed, the horn played FEROCIOUSLY out of tune. In addition, the PERSONS (I will not give out the name because everyone knows who they are...); did something to the valves that caused them to leak worse than they had before; in addition, they polished the horn so much that the metal became quite thing (it was unlacquered. I had to sell it & got my Elkhardt, due to a happy coincidence in Moss Landing, CA where an antiques dealer had 2 of them for $150.00 apiece purchased from a dentist who had intended to hang them on his wall as garden ornaments. Thank God I got to that horn before someone else. It saved my playing. best wishes to all of you Rachel Harvey > >From: "Luke Zyla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] leadpipes on 8D > >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:48:13 -0400 > > > >All I can say is that I wasn't pleased with the upper register and the > >focus of the low register on my 8-D. The goal of a company like Conn is to > >>>maximize profit by producing the best horn for the lowest price. This > >involves > >compromise. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: Leadpipes on 8d
I wouldn't worry so much about fooling with leadpipes. A lot of brass players have huge misconceptions about how easy brass repair is, and let me tell you from an amatuer horn tinkerers experience that brass repair is in no way as big of a deal as a lot of us think it is. Of course neither is car repair, but only a few out there have the time and dedication to learn a craft to work on our own cars or horns. As far as worrying about changing things on a horn by heating it up and removing parts, as long as the repair man or woman is knowledgeable and careful you have absolutely nothing to worry about. As far as historical value goes, always keep your original parts. They can always be put back on, and if it's a good job nobody besides a good repair man is going to know the difference. Secondly, I remember talking to Tony Halstead about leadpipes for 8d's and I believe he has the best designed pipe for an 8d type instrument out there. It's a Perry/Halstead pipe made by Nick Perry- I'm pretty sure he took a number of "good" pipes for 8d's from the original M series pipe, A few Atkinson Pipes, some Lawson Pipes, and some older pre letter series pipes and drew a map to come up with a consistant pipe based on four or five other very good leadpipes. I also remember that these pipes are extremely cheap compared to Atkinson Patterson or Lawson; (almost half the price). Check out Mr. Halsteads new website for contact information. Josh Johnson ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
