[Hornlist] RE: French Besson Trumpets
1) Absolutely not so, they knew exactly what they were doing, the dipsy doodles were on purpose. 2) It aint necessarily so (everybody hum along). Hugh Cooper designed the Puechner bassoons and every one that came into the US went through his hands. He tweaked them, made sure all the holes were the right size etc. At some point he got a couple of bassoons that just played terrible no matter what he did, using the bocal in the case. Finally he tried them with a Heckel bocal and they played just fine. He contacted Puechner and after much dissembling got the story. They had wrecked the mandrel for the good bocal (mega hours of design time, finally a really great playing bocal). There wasn't a drawing but there was a reference mandrel so a copy could be made from it, but they took the reference mandrel and used that one for production and managed to wreck that one too. After that they got an old one out of that old cardboard box behind the counter. Hugh tried to recreate the good one but never managed to get it quite as good. I suspect there were not drawings and specifications in the real-world industrial sense for a lot of the tooling for instruments that really PLAYED. The designs were arrived at through a lot of playing, listening, tweaking, cursing and finally - HUZZAH! On the other hand, I'm sure Conn-Selmer has drawings. - Steve Mumford Bill wrote: >message: 8 >date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 12:10:36 -0500 >from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets > >How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe >sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You >can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a >template preserving the exact shape. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a template preserving the exact shape. I was wondering the same thing. Almost seems as if the leadpipe would need to be thick-walled tubing, turned in a lathe to put a negative image of the "dips" on the outside, then squeezed into a die that would make the outside smooth and push the pattern to the inside. Or rolled from a flat brass sheet around the shaped mandrel, then sprung apart to remove it before soldering the seam closed. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
How do you remove a mandrel that has hills and dips? What you describe sounds like the result of someone trying to learn mandrel turning. You can be reasonably assured there was a detail drawing and probably a template preserving the exact shape. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 6:44 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets I heard the following story from a US Army soldier, and trumpet player, who was there when the French Besson factory was liberated from the Germans in World War II. He was a close friend of mine, and played trumpet in the local symphony for some thirty years. His son plays trumpet in St. Louis, I'm told. His name was Harold Smitheman, and he passed away a couple of years ago. It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the world. Harold, who happened to own a French Besson protested, but rank has its privileges, and Harold lost the battle. Wilbert in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
In a message dated 11/3/2006 12:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would translate "both hills and sips in them" as hills and dips along the taper, that is, the taper never decreasing, but sometimes increasing faster. Put a straight edge along it, and you'll see hills and dips. -- You're right, in that this is the only interpretation of the story that makes any sense. It reminds me of a story which Walt Lawson told me (I'll leave out details and names) about a suggestion to make a leadpipe with a straight taper. Walter had to point out that this had been proven to be a poor design for a horn. When you think about it, there is infinite variation in possible leadpipe designs, but only a very few actually work well. That's why makers get a lot of money for good pipes. They put a lot of work into the design. I've seen leadpipes being made. It takes only a few minutes of actual labor to draw a pipe. But only think of the hundreds of hours it takes to design the pipe, to install and maintain the machinery, and then to test and prove the pipe! Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: French Besson Trumpets
Pilczuk is another good example of having to fudge the math. When he developed the horn leadpipe, he figured it out mathematically perfect and made the mandrel, but bending the leadpipe to shape threw everything off and he had to completely redo the design. Schilke had a similar story. They made a straight trumpet and got it to play "perfectly" in tune, but when they made a wrapped up trumpet using the same dimensions, it didn't work at all. - Steve Mumford Paul Mansur wrote: Wilbert's story may have a bit of truth in it; an interesting story! However Dave is correct about variations in the internal hills and valleys being nigh impossible to duplicate internally on a leadpipe. Reminds me of the Pilciuk Accusonic leadpipes that have ledges cut into the mandrel that are supposed to help out with the placement of nodes in the air column. I have one of these pipes on my Alex 102 and it seems to help out a bit. I've seen the mandrels and they do have these stepped ledges cut into them making for a series of tapers in sequence. Rich Ita now has the mandrels and is using them to make trumpet leadpipes. I hear they are desirable on piccolo trumpets, especially. I recall that Barry Benjamin also has used the Accusonic pipes on some of his horns; or on one, at least. He told me he likes the pipe. For what it's worth, Rafael Mendez was playing a French Besson the first time I heard him in person. He was one awesome trumpet spieler! Mansur's Answers ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
I would translate "both hills and sips in them" as hills and dips along the taper, that is, the taper never decreasing, but sometimes increasing faster. Put a straight edge along it, and you'll see hills and dips. I believe your neighbor, Lawson, has a lead pipe like that for his horns. The story may be apocryphal, FOAF and all that, but not on that account. FOAF: Friend of a friend, a hallmark of urban legends. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:45:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US > engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war > instrument > producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had > > both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the > engineer > put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used > them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the > > world. > > > > -- > If by "both hills and sips in them" this means that the mandrel got > progressively larger, then smaller, then larger again any number of times, > then I > find this story a bit hard to believe. How would those "dips" be preserved > when > once the tube was removed from the mandrel? The "hill" behind it would > raise it up on removal. > > Of course, if someone ground down the mandrel to any degree, then that would > > damage whatever taper was there before. Still, the story seems a bit > apochryphal. > > Dave Weiner > Brass Arts Unlimited > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
Maybe the Besson workers, knowing that they were about to lose their
factory, deformed their mandrel deliberately in order to screw up German
horn manufacture. It gives new meaning to "Loose Lips Sink Ships".
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:45:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US
engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument
producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had
both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer
put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used
them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the
world.
--
If by "both hills and sips in them" this means that the mandrel got
progressively larger, then smaller, then larger again any number of times, then I
find this story a bit hard to believe. How would those "dips" be preserved when
once the tube was removed from the mandrel? The "hill" behind it would
raise it up on removal.
Of course, if someone ground down the mandrel to any degree, then that would
damage whatever taper was there before. Still, the story seems a bit
apochryphal.
Dave Weiner
Brass Arts Unlimited
___
--
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
___
post: horn@music.memphis.edu
unsubscribe or set options at
http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
Wilbert's story may have a bit of truth in it; an interesting story! However Dave is correct about variations in the internal hills and valleys being nigh impossible to duplicate internally on a leadpipe. Reminds me of the Pilciuk Accusonic leadpipes that have ledges cut into the mandrel that are supposed to help out with the placement of nodes in the air column. I have one of these pipes on my Alex 102 and it seems to help out a bit. I've seen the mandrels and they do have these stepped ledges cut into them making for a series of tapers in sequence. Rich Ita now has the mandrels and is using them to make trumpet leadpipes. I hear they are desirable on piccolo trumpets, especially. I recall that Barry Benjamin also has used the Accusonic pipes on some of his horns; or on one, at least. He told me he likes the pipe. For what it's worth, Rafael Mendez was playing a French Besson the first time I heard him in person. He was one awesome trumpet spieler! Mansur's Answers On Nov 3, 2006, at 11:38 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:45:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the world. -- If by "both hills and sips in them" this means that the mandrel got progressively larger, then smaller, then larger again any number of times, then I find this story a bit hard to believe. How would those "dips" be preserved when once the tube was removed from the mandrel? The "hill" behind it would raise it up on removal. Of course, if someone ground down the mandrel to any degree, then that would damage whatever taper was there before. Still, the story seems a bit apochryphal. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:45:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the world. -- If by "both hills and sips in them" this means that the mandrel got progressively larger, then smaller, then larger again any number of times, then I find this story a bit hard to believe. How would those "dips" be preserved when once the tube was removed from the mandrel? The "hill" behind it would raise it up on removal. Of course, if someone ground down the mandrel to any degree, then that would damage whatever taper was there before. Still, the story seems a bit apochryphal. Dave Weiner Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: French Besson Trumpets
I heard the following story from a US Army soldier, and trumpet player, who was there when the French Besson factory was liberated from the Germans in World War II. He was a close friend of mine, and played trumpet in the local symphony for some thirty years. His son plays trumpet in St. Louis, I'm told. His name was Harold Smitheman, and he passed away a couple of years ago. It seems that after the Besson factory was liberated, one of the US engineers came across the leadpipe mandrels that were used in pre war instrument producion. He noticed that the mandrels did not have an even taper, but had both hills and dips in them. Thinking them to be totally usless, the engineer put the mandrels in a lathe, smoothed them down to an even taper, and used them for some type of project. Thus the French Besson sound was lost to the world. Harold, who happened to own a French Besson protested, but rank has its privileges, and Harold lost the battle. Wilbert in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
