Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
You know that we all make mistakes. Please know that I wasn't trying to be persnickety or pick on you, but as a musicology major I was hoping to be helpful. The basic conclusion that one should reach after studying the compositional practices of orchestral horn writing is simple - once the common practice was 4 valve horns that the composer had in mind for his music, and especially after the turn of the 20th century, all the old rules had less effect than before, and many composers began to write more top down than before, although the old 1/3 - 2/4 concept is certainly still taught and still being used. You just can't count on it being THE standard. Paxmaha Julia H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes. thank you. I made a mix up. I apologize. Everyone can stop e-mailing me about my mistake in typing. My thoughts move at a different rate than my fingers do and they don't always line up properly J >From: David Jewell >Reply-To: The Horn List >To: The Horn List >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 >Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:53 -0700 (PDT) > >Not to be picky, but Shostakovich is later in history than Sibelius. >paxmaha > >Julia H wrote: > Yes, he's later in history than Shostakovich, but it's just an example of >how the >pairing of horn voices isn't set in concrete > >J > > >- >Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com - Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
At 10:08 PM + 5/19/05, Julia H wrote: >I hear you there. Include the embrochure and coordination just goes out the >window! I just want to jump off the bridge when that happens. After my mom paid big bucks for a special typing course which included ten-key work, using my right hand, of course, I had to go play the French horn, which uses the left hand. Man, go figure. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
I hear you there. Include the embrochure and coordination just goes out the window! J From: Alan Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 18:01:20 -0400 I have that problem sometimes when I'm playing horn. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ My thoughts move at a different rate than my fingers do and they don't always line up properly -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
I have that problem sometimes when I'm playing horn. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~~ My thoughts move at a different rate than my fingers do and they don't always line up properly -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 5/17/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Yes. thank you. I made a mix up. I apologize. Everyone can stop e-mailing me about my mistake in typing. My thoughts move at a different rate than my fingers do and they don't always line up properly J From: David Jewell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Not to be picky, but Shostakovich is later in history than Sibelius. paxmaha Julia H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes, he's later in history than Shostakovich, but it's just an example of how the pairing of horn voices isn't set in concrete J - Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Not to be picky, but Shostakovich is later in history than Sibelius. paxmaha Julia H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes, he's later in history than Shostakovich, but it's just an example of how the pairing of horn voices isn't set in concrete J - Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 Thanks to everyone for your input. Yes, of course, play the ink. In practice, who cares, Bb or G, two lines - four horns, it's a great part and everyone's having fun. I was more interested in the original notation. How did Shostakovich pen it? Sometimes we come across discrepancies between excerpt books and actual parts. My query aimed only to resolve one that I noticed. Ok, gotta go practice... Olav in Montreal Hi Olav, The introduction to the volume from the earlier Complete Works set (1980) says the following regarding the source for Symph. 5: The score of the Fifth Symphony was published in 1939 by the "Muzgiz," Moscow. The whereabouts of the autograph score are not known; a few pages (in piano score) of the composer's sketches for the symphony's third and fourth movements are preserved at the Central State Archives of Literature and Art of the USSR (fond 2048, descriptive list 1, bit of storage No. 6). The present edition is based on the text of the first edition of the symphony (Moscow, "Muzgiz," 1939). All mistakes found in it were rectified in the last edition of the score to appear in the compser's lifetime (Moscow, "Soviet Composer," 1961), where he introduced slight alterations touching upon the unification of dynamic markings and bowing. The most important alterations made in the 1961 score are discussed in the notes, with all editorial amendments given in square brackets I'm not up on recent Shostakovich scholarship, so more of the autograph could certainly have shown up in the last 25 years. I would say, though, that the new Shostakovich works edition (just in glancing at it) appeared to be identical to the older one; both pair the horns 1/2, 3/4. Now back to practicing Olav! Best, A. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Thanks to everyone for your input. Yes, of course, play the ink. In practice, who cares, Bb or G, two lines - four horns, it's a great part and everyone's having fun. I was more interested in the original notation. How did Shostakovich pen it? Sometimes we come across discrepancies between excerpt books and actual parts. My query aimed only to resolve one that I noticed. Ok, gotta go practice... Olav in Montreal ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
--- Julia H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Something else I just thought of, in Sibelius's 2nd > symphony ... > . Yes, > he's later in history than Shostakovich, but it's > just an example of how the > pairing of horn voices isn't set in concrete > > J Sibelius 2nd, 1902 Shostakovich 5th, 1937 Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
> > In the excerpt two bars before 21. I have been told that horns 1-2 climb to > the Bb (f,f#,g#,a,bb,a) and that horn 3-4 climb only to the g > (d,d#,e#,f#,g,f#). I was able to get my hands on what I thought were > photocopies of original parts and in that version the horns are divided up > 1-3 and 2-4 (1-3 climb to the bb and 2-4 only climb to the g). > > Are there different versions? > At that point in both the old and new Complete Works volumes, the staves *could* be interpreted either way, as there is no precise designation 1,2,3,4--- just two staves with the indication "a2" on each staff. There are, however, other points in the score where 3 and 4 are very clearly delineated on the lower staff. In practice, I think we would all pretty well recognize the upper staff as pairing together 1 and 2, and the lower staff pairing 3 and 4. But I don't think the orchestra police would arrest anyone for switching parts at that spot if the 2nd horn player's upper range wasn't as strong as the 3rd's... A. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
On Wednesday, May 18, 2005, at 01:44 AM, Hans wrote: But Paul, Johannes B. used natural horns & the 2nd pair had higher pitched horns. So did Rossini, Donizetti, Mendelssohn .. That's exactly my point! I'm glad you caught on. Paul ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
But Paul, Johannes B. used natural horns & the 2nd pair had higher pitched horns. So did Rossini, Donizetti, Mendelssohn .. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Mansur Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 9:04 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 On Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 02:39 PM, Fred Baucom wrote: > But Shostakovich often does not follow thisit's been awhile since > I played the 5th, but seem to remember that the 2nd is often, if not > always, higher in the chord than the 3rd. > So what else is new? The old overlapping brackets of 1-2 and 3-4 don't always appear in parts. I find composers do what they choose to do and hang the rules. Even Johannes B. often put the higher notes in the 3rd and 4th parts and the lower notes in the 1st and 2nd parts. (Is that a reverse overlapping bracket?) Then you might even see a unison for 8 horns with all of them on high c! Or everybody on a low F below low C. Why not just play what the part says and not be too concerned whether it says 2nd or 3rd on the music? P Mansur ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Something else I just thought of, in Sibelius's 2nd symphony (4th movement I think) the pairs swicth every couple of bars. 1 and 3 play together, followed by 2 and 4. Then 1 and 2 play together, followed by 3 and 4. He moves it around a lot and no "pair" of horn voices are permenantly set togther in any part of the symphony really (as far as I can remember). Yes, he's later in history than Shostakovich, but it's just an example of how the pairing of horn voices isn't set in concrete J From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:53:03 EDT I dunno. But i know that in all the orchestras and bands bands that i play in, the parts are arranged like dat soo... Kev [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Not always. Just because somthing is "tradition" doesn't mean that that is the only way that it is done. I've had some rather beastly 2nd horn parts that were definitely higher or at least as high as the 3rd horn. J From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:53:03 EDT I dunno. But i know that in all the orchestras and bands bands that i play in, the parts are arranged like dat soo... Kev [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horn_player_4%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
I played 3rd horn last weekend. In the edition we played from horns 1-2 play together at that point and 3-4 play together. In the 2nd movement horns 1-3 play together up to Bb several places. The 2nd horn had wanted to switch parts with me because of that first high passage, but when I showed him the 3rd part, he stuck to 2nd. The edition we played from is different from the Thompsoneditions exerpts, though the notes are the same. Both have the footnote in Russian to the 1st horn solo in the 1st movement where there is an ossia to B above the staff. The note says, in effect, don't play the high B if you can't play it piano. Herb Foster --- Olav Traa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a question. > > In the excerpt two bars before 21. I have been told that horns 1-2 climb to > the Bb (f,f#,g#,a,bb,a) and that horn 3-4 climb only to the g > (d,d#,e#,f#,g,f#). I was able to get my hands on what I thought were > photocopies of original parts and in that version the horns are divided up > 1-3 and 2-4 (1-3 climb to the bb and 2-4 only climb to the g). > > Are there different versions? > > Olav in Montreal > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
With all due respect, Paul, comparing the scoring of Brahms and Shostakovich is apples and oranges. As you well know, Brahms many times pitched his horn pairs in different keys. Shostakovich did not do this. Of course, as you say we have to be ready to play the part in front of usthis is just kicking around an interesting question. Fred Paul Mansur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So what else is new? The old overlapping brackets of 1-2 and 3-4 don't always appear in parts. I find composers do what they choose to do and hang the rules. Even Johannes B. often put the higher notes in the 3rd and 4th parts and the lower notes in the 1st and 2nd parts. (Is that a reverse overlapping bracket?) Then you might even see a unison for 8 horns with all of them on high c! Or everybody on a low F below low C. Why not just play what the part says and not be too concerned whether it says 2nd or 3rd on the music? P Mansur ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
On Tuesday, May 17, 2005, at 02:39 PM, Fred Baucom wrote: But Shostakovich often does not follow thisit's been awhile since I played the 5th, but seem to remember that the 2nd is often, if not always, higher in the chord than the 3rd. So what else is new? The old overlapping brackets of 1-2 and 3-4 don't always appear in parts. I find composers do what they choose to do and hang the rules. Even Johannes B. often put the higher notes in the 3rd and 4th parts and the lower notes in the 1st and 2nd parts. (Is that a reverse overlapping bracket?) Then you might even see a unison for 8 horns with all of them on high c! Or everybody on a low F below low C. Why not just play what the part says and not be too concerned whether it says 2nd or 3rd on the music? P Mansur ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
I dunno. But i know that in all the orchestras and bands bands that i play in, the parts are arranged like dat soo... Kev [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
At 2:28 PM -0400 5/17/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Horn sections are traditionally split into pairs with the first and third >horns playing together and the second and fourth playing together. Damn, learn something every day. Thanks. P.S. Who said, "Those who play together sit together?" Or, is it the other way around? Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
But Shostakovich often does not follow thisit's been awhile since I played the 5th, but seem to remember that the 2nd is often, if not always, higher in the chord than the 3rd. Fred [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Horn sections are traditionally split into pairs with the first and third horns playing together and the second and fourth playing together. This date back to before valved horns were invented and crooks were need to reach all pitches. Even now horn parts are commonly split in the same way. Therefore it is likely that it is the 1st and 3rd horns who reach Bb and the 2nd and 4th horns who only go to G. Hope this helps Kevin Tonry [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Horn sections are traditionally split into pairs with the first and third horns playing together and the second and fourth playing together. This date back to before valved horns were invented and crooks were need to reach all pitches. Even now horn parts are commonly split in the same way. Therefore it is likely that it is the 1st and 3rd horns who reach Bb and the 2nd and 4th horns who only go to G. Hope this helps Kevin Tonry [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
>>What a problem at all ??? No, not a problem whatsoever. I'm just interested to know what is in the original part. Does the 2nd go up to the Bb with the first or does the third. In the excerpt book by James Chambers volume 2, it's a little vague in that the part is split into two staves and simply marked a2. As per (what I thought were) original parts, 1-3 go up and 2-4 go to the g. Several people that I have spoken to claim this is wrong and that I have a funny version and that in fact 1-2 go up and 3-4 go the g. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
What a problem at all ??? This happen often (see Anton Bruckner), that 1+2 are the higher & 3+4 are the lower parttzs. Why not switching parts or switching seats, then everything would be back in order. It is not a shame, it is professionalism to do so. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olav Traa Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 3:48 PM To: The Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47 I have a question. In the excerpt two bars before 21. I have been told that horns 1-2 climb to the Bb (f,f#,g#,a,bb,a) and that horn 3-4 climb only to the g (d,d#,e#,f#,g,f#). I was able to get my hands on what I thought were photocopies of original parts and in that version the horns are divided up 1-3 and 2-4 (1-3 climb to the bb and 2-4 only climb to the g). Are there different versions? Olav in Montreal ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.d e ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
Strangely enough, I was just about to post a similar query. I left my parts at school, and while I'm home for the week, I have to use my excerpt book (LaBar). He has the horns grouped 1-3 and 2-4. In my parts from the Thompson book, and on www.hornexcerpts.org, They are grouped 1-2 and 3-4. I'd go with what the parts say. I'm not sure that there are other editions, but the one in the Thompson book is the only one I've ever seen. Also, did anyone notice that in the LaBar book, Schumann and Shostakovich are switched? It should go Schumann, Shostakovich, Strauss, but instead it is Shostakovich, Schumann, Strauss. Interesting editorial mistake. ~Anna --- I have a question. In the excerpt two bars before 21. I have been told that horns 1-2 climb to the Bb (f,f#,g#,a,bb,a) and that horn 3-4 climb only to the g (d,d#,e#,f#,g,f#). I was able to get my hands on what I thought were photocopies of original parts and in that version the horns are divided up 1-3 and 2-4 (1-3 climb to the bb and 2-4 only climb to the g). Are there different versions? Olav in Montreal - Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Shostakovich - Symphony No. 5, op. 47
I have a question. In the excerpt two bars before 21. I have been told that horns 1-2 climb to the Bb (f,f#,g#,a,bb,a) and that horn 3-4 climb only to the g (d,d#,e#,f#,g,f#). I was able to get my hands on what I thought were photocopies of original parts and in that version the horns are divided up 1-3 and 2-4 (1-3 climb to the bb and 2-4 only climb to the g). Are there different versions? Olav in Montreal ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
