RE: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
Message text written by The Horn List Protestants beat catholics in Ireland, Dear Prof and List This was a particularly fascinating and informative posting - the reason why I enjoy some of the Non horn related messages most of all. However, this comment must be treated with caution. In the early 70s I shared a flat with two colleagues from Belfast; they were very close friends. One was a Catholic and one a Protestant and they said that they would never dare to visit each other at home as both families had very hard line views. They both said that 'The Troubles' (which were then at their height) had little to do with religion and much more to do with politics. The history of Ireland is very complex and has become clouded by a lot of myths and legends (Cromwell at Drogheda - he hated the Irish and massacred the population - true or false?). This has been compounded by what seems to modern people as the stupidity and arrogance of absentee landlords and British Governments. But on the other hand, the agricultural methods and the dividing of land holdings between successive generations of sons could not support the growing population of Ireland in the 19th century any more than it could in the Highlands of Scotland. But that does not excuse the brutal 'Highland Clearances'. Take the Easter Rising in Dublin - its leaders were a joke to most Dubliners; that is until the British government executed them and turned them into martyrs. But there again, if it was not for WW1, Ireland would have been given its rightful independence in full (no partition). But actually, if that had happened, would the majority of the north's population have accepted that? What about General Sir Hubert Gough (a dashing cavalry officer who 'masterminded' the Passchendaele campaign, got sacked for the disaster that followed and lived into the 1950s wracked with guilt and writing self-justifying books) who had led the 'Curragh' revolt of like minded Northern Irish army officers just before WW1. I think that we have got into very dangerous waters here! Regards Paul Kampen ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
As a human being, Wagner was a disgusting man. But what an artist. There lies the main issue. It seems to me that various points follow on from this. 1. It is possible to be a great artist and at the same time to be a complete shit. It is even surprisingly common! 2. It is a valid field of study to determine in what way and to what extent Wagner's personal/political views influenced his art. It is also valid to study what effect his art had on subsequent politics. Art does affect other aspects of life. 3. It is necessary (in my view) to consider Wagner's views and behaviour in the context of his time. It is generally a mistake to condemn people for acting in a way that was within the range of normal behaviour of their time when standards have changed since then. (I have not myself made sufficient study of Wagner's life to express an opinion on whether his behaviour and views were repulsive by the standards of his day.) 4. Even the most repulsive people can enjoy great art, and it is not of itself a condemnation of Wagner that his music was used for evil purposes, though it can affect the way it is perceived by future generations. 5. Because of all of this, it is a matter of personal opinion as to what extent Wagner's anti-semitism undermines the value of his art, and people can genuinely and honestly disagree on this point. There are those who refuse any association with Wagner's music because of his views and because of the uses to which his music was put. Some people treat the art in isolation and enjoy it for its own sake. Others enjoy and appreciate the art, but nonetheless feel some degree of discomfort in their knowledge of the views of the composer and the purposes the music has been used for. All these are reasonable responses, and I would like to point out to everyone on the list that simply because somebody else has a different view, it doesn't of itself mean that they are wrong. It simply means that they are bringing a different set of experiences to the issue, and that those experiences are causing them to apply their values to the issue in a different way. This is a discussion that will run for as long as Wagner's music remains known. Jonathan West ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
While I can agree with you on most points I might ask you one thing: Were the composers of the German Austrian Marching music anti-Semitic, just because their compositions were used by any SS-brass band ? No, they weren´t, as even the hornists of an SS-brass band or a fire guard band blew straight into the horn while the sounds escaped cracked quite often. There was a difference indeed, as the cracking horn player of the SS-brass band had to stand guard for another night perhaps, or if he cracked too often, he was transferred to the front troupes. You cannot say, that the music influences politics, but I agree, that the right emphatic music can be abused became abused often, to enthusiasm common people as well as people of high education. The world is some kind of irrational, special in the music or around the music. You also should consider - you did it to a greater extent already - that there is a big difference between anti Judaism (related to religion) and anti Zionism (a mere political issue). You also might consider, that despite of Wagners´s anti judaistic speeches writings, many German speaking people of Jewish tradition became enthusiastic about Wagner´s artistic creation. Some of them became great interpreters of his art as singers or conductors (e.g. Levi). Hans Richter was an anti semite , but he had reason which you might understand if you read about the music politics at the Vienna Imperial Opera House around 1900 with all the intrigues which culminated by replacing Richter by Gustav Mahler. So it was just personal hate. We could discuss this topic for weeks, but it might be better to return to enjoy Wagner´s music. I enjoy reading the facsimiles of his scores in all their perfection, created by a most imperfect human being. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan West Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:13 AM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism As a human being, Wagner was a disgusting man. But what an artist. There lies the main issue. It seems to me that various points follow on from this. 1 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
On Tuesday, June 29, 2004, at 08:40 AM, Hans Pizka wrote: As a human being, Wagner was a disgusting man. But what an artist. There lies the main issue. It seems to me that various points follow on from this. One of my favorite readings is a short chapter on Wagner found in Of Men and Music, a series of Deems Taylor's critiques collected into book form. This little critique of Wagner is entitled: The Monster. It's worth finding it and reading it, friends. Cheers, Paul Mansur ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
Herr Professor Pizka asks: Seriously, why do so many of you point on Wagner as an anti-Semite (he was, off course) not to his perfect dramatic music The reaction the Professor refers to is almost instinctive with me as well, because Wagner presents an ethical challenge. Looking at his music only, as the Professor states, Wagner produced incredible music -- music that at times is almost rapturous. But as a human being, Wagner was horrific. He was not only anti-Semitic, but also cuckolded several friends in the course of his frequent adulteries, and he skipped out on his debts numerous times. So the question is, how can such beauty arise from such slime, such utter filth? Is there no connection between the beautiful and the ethical? Certainly not with Wagner, at any rate. The Professor also states: His anti-Semitism has nothing to do with his operatic creations. This statement is more problematic. The Britannica states that evidence of anti-Semitism in his operas was increasingly documented in the late 20th century. Others disagree. But the sagas, and particularly the Ring, contained German folklore, about the alleged origins of the German peoples, and to Wagner, that definitely excluded the Jews. Moreover, of course, the Nazis found a spiritual father in Wagner's music. That should not be too surprising, especially considering that Wagner is credited with coining two of the most horrid of expressions ever to befoul human language: the Jewish problem, and the final solution -- by which he meant the disappearance of Jews and Judaism. There are also his vile writings on Judaism. In a Das Judenthum in der Musik, Wagner wrote that Jewish music lacks all expression, is marked by coldness and indifference, triviality and nonsense. The Jew, he claimed, has no true passion to impel him to artistic creation. The Jewish composer, according to Wagner, makes a confused heap of the forms and styles of all ages and masters. To admit a Jew into the world of art results in pernicious consequences. Wagner spoke of the harmful influence of Jewry on the morality of the nation, adding that the subversive power of Jewry stands in contrast to the German psyche. He spoke of the involuntary repellence possessed for us by the nature and personality of the Jews, so as to vindicate that instinctive dislike which we plainly recognize as stronger and more overpowering than our conscious zeal to rid ourselves thereof, and said Jews were freaks of nature. All these ideas, together with the ultranationalistic character of his operas, especially The Ring, provided a seedbed for Nazi ideology and cultural ideas. It is also difficult to separate the music from the anti-Semitism, because Wagner considered himself a philosopher first, and a composer only second. There is an inconsistency on this issue -- Wagner was not the only rabid anti-Semite among composers. Bruchner and Chopin were also. Carl Orff was a a self-declared, card-holding Nazi. Carmina Burana was composed in 1937 expressly for the leaders of the Nazi regime. Richard Strauss in his actions was anti-Semitic, although perhaps more out of an amoral pragmatism. Appointed head of the Reichsmusikkammer in 1933; in his two years there he managed to get all performing Jewish artists removed from public view. At the same time however, he apparently was willing to work with a Jewish librettist, Stefan Zweig. He also refused the Nazi authorities when they asked him to rewrite the Midsummer Night's Dream, which they wanted in order to rid it of its composer's Jewish name. Orff, by contrast, agreed to do it (but it wasn't done, in the end). This less-than-fully vigorous approach to anti-Semitism also distinguishes Strauss from others such as Von Karajan. Von Karajan became a Nazi early on, in 1933, and promptly excluded all Jewish musicians. But it was Wagner's music that the Nazis enthusiastically embraced; it was Wagner's music that accompanied the Nazi horrors. And since music touches the emotions so strongly, it is difficult to separate our emotional reactions to Wagner as a person from Wagner solely as a musical composer. Ross Taylor Tacoma, Washington ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism
of the 19th century culminating in the holocaust, yes, but this is a historic fact. Today´s generation in Europe wants peace, peace peace again, living all together in peaceful understanding respecting each other including the cultural differences or facettes. - Mendelssohn has gained the high importance in the music, he deserves. Mahler is equally popular to other composers. Ooops, I forgot Bruckner, who you also mentioned as anti semitic. I cannot feel any anti Semitism in his art. May-be he was a bit anti semitic as most catholics are, but this is a phenomenon each other. Jewish dont like catholics much, Protestants beat catholics in Ireland, muslim fight with Hindu, muslim fight with Buddhists, etc. All is human. I beg you just one thing, Ross, do not play Wagner, Strauss, Bruckner, Orff or Mozart , leave them alone, .. if you hate them. De mortuis nihil nisi bene. = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Wagner's anti-Semitism ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
