Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
"So should we start looking for quality horns from Hyundai, Samsung, Goldstar, Daewoo, etc.?" A.C. Having lived in that remarkable country for two years, I would say that it is within the realm of possibility. Korean pianos especially the Sammick brand are very nice pianos, so it might be just a matter of time. Happy Holidays to All, Mark L. P.S. It is no longer Goldstar but it is now LG. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
So should we start looking for quality horns from Hyundai, Samsung, Goldstar, Daewoo, etc.? -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. I expect Korea to emerge as "the next Japan" before China does. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.4 - Release Date: 12/22/2004 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
>> At best, I do not expect them >> ever to exceed student grade > Precisely the sort of thing that, as a kid in the > early '60s, I heard my father's friends say about > Japanese cars, cameras, electronics, etc. Well, there are some parallels to be drawn, but there are also other considerations. In the overall scheme of things, I expect Korea to emerge as "the next Japan" before China does. Japan has already turned to Korea and China to produce certain components of "quality Japanese-made" goods to keep the costs down, thereby protecting their market share by closing the back door. For instance, in the motorcycle world, several of the Japanese bikes have components and systems made in China. Often the Chinese parts are of the cast variety (molten metal poured into a mold) as the rough Chinese finish can be cleaned-up by cheap (for now) Chinese labor. However, the Koreans (of the Southern persuasion) are on the move, and have apparently done so well producing some of the more precision parts that a few ENTIRE Japanese motorcycles are COMPLETELY made there in South Korea. So, based on the above, I would expect Yamaha, having emerged as a "quality brand," to protect its market share by having raw parts made all over the world, each country contributing what it does best and cheapest. One might think that rough valve sets and certain formed tubing might be made in China, finished in Korea, and assembled in major market areas... such as (in my case) the USA. Then you have the cheapness of foreign labor allied with the "perceived precision" of Japanese-manufactured consumer goods, all gathered-up behind the banner of a major brand "Made In The USA" (again, in my case). If history is a good teacher (and it is), no Yamaha assembly line horn will ever knock off the best craftsman-built horns; Yamaha will either 1) endeavor to keep the small maker "small," or 2) buy him out. And you may fill-in your favorite niche-maker here. What science and industry can do is to, eventually, help an assembly line horn APPROACH the best custom horns at around 1/2 the price. And is this not what's happening now? If we were to stick the Lawsons, Dan Rauch, Patterson, etc., on a time clock, how long do you think they could stay interested in giving their best? "Alright Walter, you've been fitting that 1st valve slide for 5-minutes now! Just stick the thing together and MOVE ON!" "Hey Rauch, you'se only got deese heah five bells made? You'se is s'posed to have TEN. Get 'em done by day's end or GO FIND YUHSELF ANUDDAH JOB, CHUMP!" Private experimentation drives the state-of-the-art, and mass production institutionalizes it. We need both. Pretty soon, all of China will be Wal-Mart's shill, but only until the lion grows teeth big enough to eat the guy with the whip & chair. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
So far the Chinese horns appear to be the product of first world makers trying to translate their own traditional manufacturing expertise into a low cost labor market. The high skill workers, a product of traditional manufacturing, are absent. Two trends that are being developed simultaneously are the ability to make component parts, cheaply, to incredibly tight tolerances, and the ability to make these parts, profitably, in smaller and smaller batches. I have had reflectors made to tight optical tolerances, that are basically a bell flare, for three dollars each in hundred quantities. Want a screw bell flare? Furnace braze a brass blank to the 'reflector' and a decent NC machine can make ten different screws, one after the other, on the same machine setup, with tolerances to a ten thousandth of an inch. If you take apart one of the Chinese horns, you'll probably find the bell rings are already being made to those tolerances. You'll probably find out the bell spinning equipment is there somewhere in China, but they haven't put two and two together yet. In a message dated 12/22/2004 3:30:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Bob Osmun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >What is your idea of "a short time" for the Chinese quality to improve? At >best, I do not expect them ever to exceed student grade. Companies like >Yamaha are in it for the long haul, and are committed to professional artist >quality instruments on par with the finest hand made instruments. Do you >really expect the Chinese instruments to improve that much overnight? I'll >believe it when I see it. > >Jim Becker, Senior Technician >Osmun Music Inc. > >- Original Message - >From: "Alan Cole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "The Horn List" >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:05 PM >Subject: RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica > > >> That might not be so bad, specially if the prices stay below the level of >> Yamaha. >> >> -- Alan Cole, rank amateur >> McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. >> ~ >> Within a short time, expect the Chinese instruments to rise to the quality >> of Yamaha. >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.3 - Release Date: 12/21/2004 >> >> >> ___ >> post: horn@music.memphis.edu >> unsubscribe or set options at >> http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com >> >> > > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
Jim wrote: >What is your idea of "a short time" for the Chinese >quality to improve? At best, I do not expect them >ever to exceed student grade. Ha! This gave me a chuckle. Precisely the sort of thing that, as a kid in the early '60s, I heard my father's friends say about Japanese cars, cameras, electronics, etc. --John = J Mason Charlottesville, Virginia >>Democracy of Speed, a Photo Documentary Project: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ds8s/john-m/john-m.html __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
What is your idea of "a short time" for the Chinese quality to improve? At best, I do not expect them ever to exceed student grade. Companies like Yamaha are in it for the long haul, and are committed to professional artist quality instruments on par with the finest hand made instruments. Do you really expect the Chinese instruments to improve that much overnight? I'll believe it when I see it. Jim Becker, Senior Technician Osmun Music Inc. - Original Message - From: "Alan Cole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:05 PM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica That might not be so bad, specially if the prices stay below the level of Yamaha. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ Within a short time, expect the Chinese instruments to rise to the quality of Yamaha. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.3 - Release Date: 12/21/2004 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rosmun%40osmun.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
That might not be so bad, specially if the prices stay below the level of Yamaha. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ Within a short time, expect the Chinese instruments to rise to the quality of Yamaha. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.3 - Release Date: 12/21/2004 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
I've spent my whole career developing tooling, fixturing, and machinery to reduce labor content, especially high skilled labor, from medium to low production products. With modern methods, producing different designs should be no more difficult than kitting up different parts. My goal over the last ten years has been to design production lines (500-5000 units per month) that can also turn out prototypes. Computer controlled robotics have become amazingly simple and inexpensive. What I used to do through mechanical design can now be done with stepping motors and positioners. The programs I've created to design the products simultaneously generate the control codes for the assembly tools. What's scary is that more than half the production lines I design are going to Korea and China. Within a short time, expect the Chinese instruments to rise to the quality of Yamaha. In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:24:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Loren Mayhew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I am empathetic to the nostalgic sentiment expressed here. However, the >fact is, that if instrument makers don't make a profit, they will cease to >exist altogether and then more than just a few models will disappear. It >would also help if more people buy horns; this last year has been a squeeze. >Also the drooping US dollar has exacerbated the situation. Maybe 2005 will >improve the bottom line for all of us. Let's hope so. > >Loren Mayhew >\@() >Finke Horns >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(520) 403-6897 > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:11 PM >To: horn@music.memphis.edu >Subject: Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica > >It is a shame that instruments with a long and great history disappear. >Unfortunately when visitors to the music industry (wall street CEO's) take >charge, they are only interested in the bottom line. Reduce costs, lay off > >workers, consolidate models, eliminate models, etc. They lack the passion >for the >music industry as a whole and only view musical instruments as a commodity. > >When their tenure in the music industry is finished and the bottom line is >improved they move on to the next industry in need of their talents. The >music >industry and instrument consumers are left with the results. > >Butteblack >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhews.us > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
I am empathetic to the nostalgic sentiment expressed here. However, the fact is, that if instrument makers don't make a profit, they will cease to exist altogether and then more than just a few models will disappear. It would also help if more people buy horns; this last year has been a squeeze. Also the drooping US dollar has exacerbated the situation. Maybe 2005 will improve the bottom line for all of us. Let's hope so. Loren Mayhew \@() Finke Horns [EMAIL PROTECTED] (520) 403-6897 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 3:11 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica It is a shame that instruments with a long and great history disappear. Unfortunately when visitors to the music industry (wall street CEO's) take charge, they are only interested in the bottom line. Reduce costs, lay off workers, consolidate models, eliminate models, etc. They lack the passion for the music industry as a whole and only view musical instruments as a commodity. When their tenure in the music industry is finished and the bottom line is improved they move on to the next industry in need of their talents. The music industry and instrument consumers are left with the results. Butteblack ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/loren%40mayhews.us ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
It is a shame that instruments with a long and great history disappear. Unfortunately when visitors to the music industry (wall street CEO's) take charge, they are only interested in the bottom line. Reduce costs, lay off workers, consolidate models, eliminate models, etc. They lack the passion for the music industry as a whole and only view musical instruments as a commodity. When their tenure in the music industry is finished and the bottom line is improved they move on to the next industry in need of their talents. The music industry and instrument consumers are left with the results. Butteblack ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
For several years I played on a pre UMI Eroica. It was a wonderful horn and I have students still playing on them. They have a massive, dark sound and a very flexible scale that can be molded nicely to lots of different music. They are vastly underrated and will be missed. It is a shame that whatever the new conglomerate is, they are unable to find a place in their catalogue for the Eroica. Richard Smith R.G. Smith Music Engraving & Publishing www.rgsmithmusic.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 9:33 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica The horn I play on is an Eroica, and when I purchased it used four years ago, Volkweins told me that the Eroica had been off the market for some time all ready. Try the UMI site if you haven't found out any more info. Michael Scheimer, Pittsburgh ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/music%40rgsmithmusic.com --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/04 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/04 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
The horn I play on is an Eroica, and when I purchased it used four years ago, Volkweins told me that the Eroica had been off the market for some time all ready. Try the UMI site if you haven't found out any more info. Michael Scheimer, Pittsburgh ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] goodbye Fidelio/Eroica
Hi Listers- has anyone else caught wind that the Fidelio and Eroica have been officially 'nixed?' Here is the message I got from Volkwein's about it. Sorry, but the Eroica is no longer available although you might still find one at a dealer that has old stock. When Bach/Selmer merged with UMI, they discontinued all King horns except the single student horn, the diplomat. The Conn 6D through 12 D are still being made in addition to the two Bach models, the b1102 and the B1112, which is a large throat model in nickel silver. Alas, they are no more. Dave ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
