RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
Hello Paul, all these recommended methods work more or less. But that´s not the problem. The problem is the carelessness of the end user of the instruments, so to speak the PLAYER. If they insert just a few droppings of oil carefully, there will be no wash down of slide grease. If they would use rotor & spindle oil carefully & inside clean the instrument from time to time & if they would also care not to play with their mouth still full of meals or candies, we had not to discuss such simple things. I think, we - we all, all the society - have reached a point, where common understandings of the things & the mechanic are down , completely down. It seems, that a majority has never learned or forgotten already, that we have got a brain to use. We ask & discuss. If there is another opinion, which does not please us (e.g. asking for self discipline), we oppose. If we all would use our brain, we would not commit all these silly actions in all fields of life. We exaggerate, we condemn, instead forgiving or understanding or action carefully. Are we so spoiled by all these super idiotic commercials & their ballyhoo ??? Like: put the nail between thumb & forefinger of the left hand, haha, point the nails point against the wall,- got it ? -, get the hammer into your right hand, - you too madam-, holding it at the grip firmly, wow, hammer against the head of the nail until the nail sticks in the wall, splash , applaus. Are we that like ? Really ? . The industry seems to think so -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 3:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict In a message dated 10/12/04 2:59:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Would it be better to oil through a male tube? > Using this manner of oiling, it is possible to get extraneous slide grease or other matter into the valves from the crook attached to the slide tube-especially if there is any corrosion in the slide crook. I have found for my own use, and I always recommend to my clients that they find an eyedropper bottle to use. First remove the slide and with a few drops of oil in the dropper, place it all of the way into the outer slide tube, then squirt the oil directly onto the rotor. This method seems to avoid the problems you are discussing. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> if the nervous condition makes the hands shaking, how about using an
> anti vibration device while playing ?
Like quicksand?
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
Perfect answer. But to 2nd paragraph: if the nervous condition makes the hands shaking, how about using an anti vibration device while playing ? == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jerry Houston Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:09 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict It's really an exaggerated problem, for most folks. All you need to do is hold the horn so that the valve slides are pointing upward, and carefully allow a couple drops of oil to fall down their middles. It really isn't hard to do, normally. If a nervous condition makes that impossible, then there are other options that were already mentioned. But for an individual with nominally steady hands, and a fair understanding of where "up" is, it's no trick at all to hit the rotors and miss the tubing walls - every time. From: "rjackallen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict > Why not introduce oil to the rotors (if you must) through a plastic > soda straw being careful not to scrape stuff from the inside of the tubes? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
In a message dated 10/12/04 2:59:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Would it be better to oil through a male tube? > Using this manner of oiling, it is possible to get extraneous slide grease or other matter into the valves from the crook attached to the slide tube-especially if there is any corrosion in the slide crook. I have found for my own use, and I always recommend to my clients that they find an eyedropper bottle to use. First remove the slide and with a few drops of oil in the dropper, place it all of the way into the outer slide tube, then squirt the oil directly onto the rotor. This method seems to avoid the problems you are discussing. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
It's really an exaggerated problem, for most folks. All you need to do is hold the horn so that the valve slides are pointing upward, and carefully allow a couple drops of oil to fall down their middles. It really isn't hard to do, normally. If a nervous condition makes that impossible, then there are other options that were already mentioned. But for an individual with nominally steady hands, and a fair understanding of where "up" is, it's no trick at all to hit the rotors and miss the tubing walls - every time. From: "rjackallen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict Why not introduce oil to the rotors (if you must) through a plastic soda straw being careful not to scrape stuff from the inside of the tubes? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
When it comes time to regrease, I wrap some paper towel around a pencil
and rotate it slowly (eraser end first) down the tube toward the valve,
being careful to avoid pushing goo farther into the valve. After about
half way, I pull it out to check how gooey the paper is, and maybe use a
clean piece to continue. I don't know if that's a smart way to clean out
old grease, but I don't get sluggish valves.
{ David Goldberg: [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
{ Math Dept, Washtenaw Community College }
{ Ann Arbor Michigan }
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Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
A needle oiler, such as Hetman uses, can drop the oil in past the greasy part of the slide with no grease contact. Once you're aware of the potential problem, it's pretty simple to avoid it. I've thought about putting the oil in the crook, but it might still contact some grease. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
Why not introduce oil to the rotors (if you must) through a plastic soda straw being careful not to scrape stuff from the inside of the tubes? Jack - Original Message - From: "Greg Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Horn List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict > Carlberg Jones wrote: > > Would it be better to oil through a male tube? There's much less > > slide grease on its inside surface to wash into the rotors. > > Only if you're sure that the inside of the tube isn't covered with > anything else (meatball sandwich, potato chips, bacterial culture...). > > Greg > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rjackallen%40cox.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
At 4:22 PM -0400 10/12/04, David Goldberg wrote: >oops. You made a mistrake? Do tell . . . Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
Carlberg Jones wrote: Would it be better to oil through a male tube? There's much less slide grease on its inside surface to wash into the rotors. Only if you're sure that the inside of the tube isn't covered with anything else (meatball sandwich, potato chips, bacterial culture...). Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
> Would that be better than running the risk of having the oil run along the > slide grease bearing female tubes? Tube or not tube - that is the question. D, or not D - that is another question. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
Good idea, Carlberg! I'm going to start doing this. Fred Carlberg Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 12:43 PM -0400 10/12/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] . . . the generous application of oil will carry in yet a little >more slide grease. Would it be better to oil through a male tube? There's much less slide grease on its inside surface to wash into the rotors. One could pull out a normal slide with male tubes, put the oil in it and put the slide all the way back in, introducing the oil that way. Would that be better than running the risk of having the oil run along the slide grease bearing female tubes? Just a thought. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40sbcglobal.net ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
At 12:43 PM -0400 10/12/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] . . . the generous application of oil will carry in yet a little >more slide grease. Would it be better to oil through a male tube? There's much less slide grease on its inside surface to wash into the rotors. One could pull out a normal slide with male tubes, put the oil in it and put the slide all the way back in, introducing the oil that way. Would that be better than running the risk of having the oil run along the slide grease bearing female tubes? Just a thought. Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
If one greases the slides - the slides being still tight - , both shafts get grease, right. Both are inserted single in their socket, turned around a bit and pulled out. What does the clever horn player notice then ? Excess grease at the the shaft (socket) AND at the inlet of the socket. He will clean this away. This procedure is a bit more complicate with the valve slides. Here the one shaft could serve for both sockets. Cleaning away the excess grease same as before. Notice: apply grease as thin as possible, please, so similar things as described by Bill can never happen. It is really funny, that so many folks resonate about cleaning their instruments, but how come that repairmen complain so often about "complete menus" left in the horns for years ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 5:44 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] oil addict Check what they are using as slide grease. If the oil pick up a small amount each time it is oiled, the excess oil will go away with the condensation, but the slide grease will stick to the valve. As the excess goes away the slide grease will become the dominant lubricant, and will need another generous application of oil to dilute it back to a thin consistency, but the generous application of oil will carry in yet a little more slide grease. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] oil addict
Check what they are using as slide grease. If the oil pick up a small amount each time it is oiled, the excess oil will go away with the condensation, but the slide grease will stick to the valve. As the excess goes away the slide grease will become the dominant lubricant, and will need another generous application of oil to dilute it back to a thin consistency, but the generous application of oil will carry in yet a little more slide grease. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
Thanks for the precise answer. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herbert Foster Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:52 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] oil addict I repeat: Yes the rotor/casing can become "addicted" to oil. Technically speaking, we're talking about surface chemistry. When the rotor and casing are first wet with water, they become hydrophilic: they are wet with water, and reject oil. When the rotor and casing are first wet with oil, they become hydrophobic: they reject water. Of course any surfactants in the oil have an effect. If the rotor and casing are wet with oil (addicted), and have not been lubricated regularly, they start to become hydrophilic, and you can get an emulsion of oil and water. You DON'T want an emulsion. Emulsions have high viscosity. Consider mayonaise, an oil in water emulsion. I have no problem with my horn being addicted to oil. I keep giving it its "fix," and I have free valves, and the horn is protected from corrosion. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >... > I repeat: > The valve needs a certain amount of lubrication, which consists of an > extreme thin (about 4 micron) water (moist) - oil emulsion, which allows > free movement and seals the valve body with the valve housing perfectly. > The valve housings are made of nickel silver or yellow brass, while the > rotors (bodies) are made of yellow brass of different alloy. Normally, > the two different alloys would move freely without any lubri(fi)cation, > but as moist is involved, this oily emulsion also slows down erosion > (damage). > > It is common knowledge, that synthetic oils work better than natural > oils due to less foreign contents. It is also common knowledge, that > excess oil tends to smear corners etc. and thus slowing actions. > > The valves in question are made using high precision machinery & > perfectly skilled technicians. > > Now the makers statement:(so say customers) > If the valves are oiled from beginning, they become "oil addict". > > >From my knowledge of physical science, I cannot imagine such. > > Technician confirmation ?? > > (By the way, I oil my horn few time, just when I feel it be necessary, > e.g. that´s after washing the horn through every few weeks, in a regular > maintenance procedure, but I use the oil extremely carefully (the small > oil bottle lasts for years). All axis are oiled then too.) > > == > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
I repeat: Yes the rotor/casing can become "addicted" to oil. Technically speaking, we're talking about surface chemistry. When the rotor and casing are first wet with water, they become hydrophilic: they are wet with water, and reject oil. When the rotor and casing are first wet with oil, they become hydrophobic: they reject water. Of course any surfactants in the oil have an effect. If the rotor and casing are wet with oil (addicted), and have not been lubricated regularly, they start to become hydrophilic, and you can get an emulsion of oil and water. You DON'T want an emulsion. Emulsions have high viscosity. Consider mayonaise, an oil in water emulsion. I have no problem with my horn being addicted to oil. I keep giving it its "fix," and I have free valves, and the horn is protected from corrosion. Herb Foster --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >... > I repeat: > The valve needs a certain amount of lubrication, which consists of an > extreme thin (about 4 micron) water (moist) - oil emulsion, which allows > free movement and seals the valve body with the valve housing perfectly. > The valve housings are made of nickel silver or yellow brass, while the > rotors (bodies) are made of yellow brass of different alloy. Normally, > the two different alloys would move freely without any lubri(fi)cation, > but as moist is involved, this oily emulsion also slows down erosion > (damage). > > It is common knowledge, that synthetic oils work better than natural > oils due to less foreign contents. It is also common knowledge, that > excess oil tends to smear corners etc. and thus slowing actions. > > The valves in question are made using high precision machinery & > perfectly skilled technicians. > > Now the makers statement:(so say customers) > If the valves are oiled from beginning, they become "oil addict". > > >From my knowledge of physical science, I cannot imagine such. > > Technician confirmation ?? > > (By the way, I oil my horn few time, just when I feel it be necessary, > e.g. that´s after washing the horn through every few weeks, in a regular > maintenance procedure, but I use the oil extremely carefully (the small > oil bottle lasts for years). All axis are oiled then too.) > > == > > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com > ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] oil addict
To all who answered to the "oil addict" question: If I ask something you should know, that I am not asking about any junk horn or like. I precondition precision tools, high class material, no production errors, best final control not only by a technician but also by an excellent player, which means a perfect neutral situation. So I ask again for precise answers, but the technicians, not just guesses or descriptions. We are more theorists here and les empiric. I repeat: The valve needs a certain amount of lubrication, which consists of an extreme thin (about 4 micron) water (moist) - oil emulsion, which allows free movement and seals the valve body with the valve housing perfectly. The valve housings are made of nickel silver or yellow brass, while the rotors (bodies) are made of yellow brass of different alloy. Normally, the two different alloys would move freely without any lubri(fi)cation, but as moist is involved, this oily emulsion also slows down erosion (damage). It is common knowledge, that synthetic oils work better than natural oils due to less foreign contents. It is also common knowledge, that excess oil tends to smear corners etc. and thus slowing actions. The valves in question are made using high precision machinery & perfectly skilled technicians. Now the makers statement:(so say customers) If the valves are oiled from beginning, they become "oil addict". >From my knowledge of physical science, I cannot imagine such. Technician confirmation ?? (By the way, I oil my horn few time, just when I feel it be necessary, e.g. that´s after washing the horn through every few weeks, in a regular maintenance procedure, but I use the oil extremely carefully (the small oil bottle lasts for years). All axis are oiled then too.) == ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
