Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
At 10:00 AM 2/16/2008, you wrote: >date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:33:13 -0800 >from: Fred <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy > >Come on guysobviously, the perfect technique was in the sneering, since >he had already stated that he 'played it perfectly'. In fact, I going to >call cabbage for a sneering lesson - I feel I've always been lacking in this >important area. > >Fred Having sat down-section from Cabbage, I can confirm that his technique is, in fact, extremely good. Warren. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
Thank you all for your advice. I will try it as soon as possible, more than likely about 4:30 tomorrow afternoon. -- Tim GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
Come on guysobviously, the perfect technique was in the sneering, since he had already stated that he 'played it perfectly'. In fact, I going to call cabbage for a sneering lesson - I feel I've always been lacking in this important area. Fred On 2/15/08, John Burch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At 12:22 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Steve F wrote > > > > > > I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn > > > player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop > > > the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - > > > hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. > > > > > > My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and > > > I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage > > > perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. > > > > > > ** > > > I did the same thing after my son complained > > > he couldn't play a passage stopped. Not only > > > did I play it perfectly, but I was able to sneer > > > condescendingly afterwards, exhibiting perfect technique. > > > >-snip- > > > >I didn't mention that because it goes without saying; I'm his father. :) > > > >But I have a question - was your exhibition of perfect technique in > >hand-stopping, sneering, or both? > > > >-S- > > Wow! The Cabbage has been cabbaged. > > Way to go Steve. Woohoo. > > > > -- > John Burch > West burbs of Chicago > 630/833-4299 > > The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe > is that it has never tried to contact us. >Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes > > > -- > > > -- > John Burch > West burbs of Chicago > 630/833-4299 > > The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe > is that it has never tried to contact us. >Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes > > > -- > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
Come on guysobviously, the perfect technique was in the sneering, since he had already stated that he 'played it perfectly'. In fact, I going to call cabbage for a sneering lesson - I feel I've always been lacking in this important area. Fred On 2/15/08, John Burch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At 12:22 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Steve F wrote > > > > > > I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn > > > player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop > > > the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - > > > hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. > > > > > > My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and > > > I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage > > > perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. > > > > > > ** > > > I did the same thing after my son complained > > > he couldn't play a passage stopped. Not only > > > did I play it perfectly, but I was able to sneer > > > condescendingly afterwards, exhibiting perfect technique. > > > >-snip- > > > >I didn't mention that because it goes without saying; I'm his father. :) > > > >But I have a question - was your exhibition of perfect technique in > >hand-stopping, sneering, or both? > > > >-S- > > Wow! The Cabbage has been cabbaged. > > Way to go Steve. Woohoo. > > > > -- > John Burch > West burbs of Chicago > 630/833-4299 > > The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe > is that it has never tried to contact us. >Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes > > > -- > > > -- > John Burch > West burbs of Chicago > 630/833-4299 > > The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe > is that it has never tried to contact us. >Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes > > > -- > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fbaucom%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
At 12:22 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Steve F wrote > > I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn > player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop > the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - > hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. > > My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and > I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage > perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. > > ** > I did the same thing after my son complained > he couldn't play a passage stopped. Not only > did I play it perfectly, but I was able to sneer > condescendingly afterwards, exhibiting perfect technique. -snip- I didn't mention that because it goes without saying; I'm his father. :) But I have a question - was your exhibition of perfect technique in hand-stopping, sneering, or both? -S- Wow! The Cabbage has been cabbaged. Way to go Steve. Woohoo. -- John Burch West burbs of Chicago 630/833-4299 The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us. Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes -- -- John Burch West burbs of Chicago 630/833-4299 The surest sign that intelligent life exists in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us. Calvin of Calvin & Hobbes -- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Steve F wrote > > I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn > player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop > the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - > hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. > > My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and > I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage > perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. > > ** > I did the same thing after my son complained > he couldn't play a passage stopped. Not only > did I play it perfectly, but I was able to sneer > condescendingly afterwards, exhibiting perfect technique. -snip- I didn't mention that because it goes without saying; I'm his father. :) But I have a question - was your exhibition of perfect technique in hand-stopping, sneering, or both? -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped horn and Allergy
Steve F wrote I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. ** I did the same thing after my son complained he couldn't play a passage stopped. Not only did I play it perfectly, but I was able to sneer condescendingly afterwards, exhibiting perfect technique. By the way, Allergy is a piece by Faure. It wasn't orginally written for horn. Gotta go, Cabbage ** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp0030002565) ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy
Tim Kecherson wrote: > I have an intersting (although probably common) problem. > My high school band just played an arrangement of > Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with a stopped > horn entrance. My hand is large enough so that I > cannot properly do stopped horn ... -snip- Jeremy Cucco replied > I'll agree with all that's been said so far and add some anecdotal > evidence. My brother switched from trumpet to horn during high school > (I guess he heard how much fun I was having with it...). Anyway, my > brother's hands are freakishly large. To give you an idea, my (small) > hands fit a size 7 wedding ring. Most men fit between a 9 and 12 size > wedding ring. My brother wears a size 20 wedding ring. Basically, he > has the hands of a small gorilla. While playing on a Holton > 179 (school provided) I was easily able to teach him to properly play > stopped. The 179 has a smaller throat than the 8D by a noticeable > margin I add: I agree with Jeremy. Although I'm no great shakes as a horn player, my son also told me the same thing - he couldn't stop the horn. I frankly forget exactly what his reasons were - hand too big, perhaps, or perhaps something else. My son's hands and mine are almost exactly the same size, and I picked up the same horn, and played the stopped passage perfectly the first time I tried it. There is a technique to this. That's not to say, of course, that your hand being too big isn't possibly a problem - it might be but it seems pretty unlikely to me. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy
-Original Message- From: Tim Kecherson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:56 PM To: Hornlist Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy I have an intersting (although probably common) problem. My high school band just played an arrangement of Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with a stopped horn entrance. My hand is large enough so that I cannot properly do stopped horn, I need to transpose one whole step down instead of one half step. Is there a way to get my bell throat enlarged so I can do this properly, or are there any models of horn with a larger throat than a Conn 8D? Also, I seem to be allergic to silver, as when I play I get green residue on the outside of my right hand. What can I do for this? ___ I'll agree with all that's been said so far and add some anecdotal evidence. My brother switched from trumpet to horn during high school (I guess he heard how much fun I was having with it...). Anyway, my brother's hands are freakishly large. To give you an idea, my (small) hands fit a size 7 wedding ring. Most men fit between a 9 and 12 size wedding ring. My brother wears a size 20 wedding ring. Basically, he has the hands of a small gorilla. While playing on a Holton 179 (school provided) I was easily able to teach him to properly play stopped. The 179 has a smaller throat than the 8D by a noticeable margin. I would bet that instead of trying to seal the bell, you're trying to shove the hand into the bell. In general, when stopping, the hand should not move much if any farther into the horn than it is when you're playing normally. It's just that the palm of the hand reaches across and creates as much of a seal as possible. Generally, the bigger the hand the better when in comes to stopping (to a point of course). As for the allergy - again, I'll echo what's already been said. Are you seeing any swelling, itching or irritation? If no, than there's no allergy. I do actually have an allergy to brass and play on an unlacquered instrument. The only problems I have is around my cuticles on my nails where they tend to get very dry and crack. Other than that, my hand gets green all the time. (My wife jokes with me all the time that I look like I just got in a fist fight with Kermit the Frog and Gumby. The stuff doesn't wash off terribly easy either...) Cheers- Jeremy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.4/1276 - Release Date: 2/13/2008 9:41 AM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy
About the 'stopped horn' question - first ask the band director what type of sound he wants - try to produce that effect and don't get hung-up about whether you do it 'stopped' or 'muted' or just 'regular'. My guess is that the effect is supposed to be - 'brassy with edge, but not too loud' . I think you can accomplish that without 'stopping' and without using a mute. A BIG problem with 'stopping' and also with mutes, is playing in tune and producing the sound volume that is needed. The green on your hand is from the copper in the nickel-silver metal of the horn (nickel-silver does NOT contain any real silver) it is an alloy of mostly copper, nickel, and some tin and zinc. The lacquer is probably worn in the area where your hands hold the horn - you can 'touch-up' those spots with clear nail polish. But probably it would be best to talk with an instrument repair person about what they would recommend - talk with the actual repair technician - not just the 'counter sales person'. Doing a complete profession re-lacquer is expensive because there is a lot of work involved in removing the old lacquer, cleaning and polishing the metal, and applying the new lacquer. But for spot touch-ups where perfect appearance isn't a concern, the cost should be reasonable. Jay Kosta Endwell NY amateur player, not repair tech... -- Tim Kecherson ketch90 at inbox.com wrote - I have an intersting (although probably common) problem. My high school band just played an arrangement of Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with a stopped horn entrance. My hand is large enough so that I cannot properly do stopped horn, I need to transpose one whole step down instead of one half step. Is there a way to get my bell throat enlarged so I can do this properly, or are there any models of horn with a larger throat than a Conn 8D? Also, I seem to be allergic to silver, as when I play I get green residue on the outside of my right hand. What can I do for this? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy
From: "Tim Kecherson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have an intersting (although probably common) problem. My high school band just played an arrangement of Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with a stopped horn entrance. My hand is large enough so that I cannot properly do stopped horn, I need to transpose one whole step down instead of one half step. Is there a way to get my bell throat enlarged so I can do this properly, or are there any models of horn with a larger throat than a Conn 8D? What you really need is a teacher -- one who really plays horn -- who can work with you on stopped horn. No one has a hand so large or so small that stopped intonation would not be approximately a semitone. And if your hand were so large, the horn would be flat rather than sharp. You are probably not closing the bell sufficiently or otherwise not correctly managing the technique. The horn must be closed so tightly that there is significant back pressure when you blow. If you have access to a brass stopping mute, practice first with that and then make you hand do the same thing the stopping mute does. If you're really dedicated you could buy one on the net -- a stopping mute is not very expensive and is something you can use for years. Also, I seem to be allergic to silver, as when I play I get green residue on the outside of my right hand. What can I do for this? Why do you think this is an allergy? And why do you think there is any silver in your bell? If you stick your hand in mud and it gets muddy, does that mean you are allergic to mud? Green is a typical color of brass (actually copper) oxides. See http://chemistry.about.com/cs/demonstrations/a/aa022204a.htm Your bell is simply tarnished. Some people have wetter and more acidic sweat that will enhance tarnishing of the metal. It is generally harmless to you, and not quickly harmful to the horn (unless a historical or extremely valuable instrument). If you can obtain a chamois (a soft leather wiping cloth) and wipe the bell frequently, at least each time you put the horn away, that may help. Other than that, the only guaranteed is an expensive (re)laquering of the bell. If the bell already has a buildup of visible tarnish and crud from a previous user, a one-time gentle treatment with brass polish will probably reduce the problem, although the bell may slowly tarnish again. But probably this isn't something you need to worry about at all. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped horn problem and Allergy
I have an intersting (although probably common) problem. My high school band just played an arrangement of Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King" with a stopped horn entrance. My hand is large enough so that I cannot properly do stopped horn, I need to transpose one whole step down instead of one half step. Is there a way to get my bell throat enlarged so I can do this properly, or are there any models of horn with a larger throat than a Conn 8D? Also, I seem to be allergic to silver, as when I play I get green residue on the outside of my right hand. What can I do for this? ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn, found everywhere in Broadway
Ken Pope wrote: is SO loud the stopped horn can not be heard. ... Lastly, the sound engineer usually places the pit orchestra at such a lower volume level than the singers that they sound as if they're being 'phoned in'. ... So... don't worry so much about the stopped playing in Broadway shows. The only exception I would add to this is if it is a matter of caring how your colleagues around you want it to sound. I would also say that you always want to play your best at ALL times, and sometimes that might mean making a change to the parts > Thanks, Ken, that is reassuring & comforting to this come-back amateur who's only been at it for about 20 months now. :o) I played this modern religious oratorio gig a few months ago. I was the one & only horn (the other one, a high school kid, quit). Much of the music was beyond my abilities. I did my level best, got the major solos okay, played in tune, etc. But some of the toughest technical licks I clammed, but they were drowned out by percussion anyway. So who knew? I modestly received lots of compliments and the director was none-the-less grateful for my contribution & let me know I would be called upon again. Whoo hoo! :o) Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn, found everywhere in Broadway
I like to say that Andrew Lloyd Weber paid for my house (having spent 3 years as principal horn touring with he and his wife) - and I can honestly say that the majority of times Pit conductors are keyboardists - NOT conductors. They typically do not know if you're playing stopped or not - OR, the pit is SO loud the stopped horn can not be heard. Lastly, the sound engineer usually places the pit orchestra at such a lower volume level than the singers that they sound as if they're being 'phoned in'. I once took off a show to watch our production - it was really depressing! All of our hard work in the pit was basically lost in the mix, or was obliterated by the volume levels of the singers. So... don't worry so much about the stopped playing in Broadway shows. The only exception I would add to this is if it is a matter of caring how your colleagues around you want it to sound. I would also say that you always want to play your best at ALL times, and sometimes that might mean making a change to the parts Sincerely Ken (off the road) Pope "Just Put Your Lips Together And Blow" http://www.poperepair.com US Dealer: Kuhn Horns & Bonna Cases Pope Instrument Repair 80 Wenham Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 617-522-0532 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn, found everywhere in Broadway horn..
The question was about "middle c stopped". 15 places for stopped horn, my goodness, so often ??? What happen in Puccini & R.Strauss ?? When they habe too many stopped pasages, but they knew how to write & leave time to place the hand or the mute (not allways). But why not playing the passage before a stopped strange note as middle c with the mute right in there but lifted out enough to produce a tone like open ? And insert/remove the mute when there is time ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of matthew scheffelman Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:21 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped horn, found everywhere in Broadway horn.. In Broadway music, the horn writing requires stopped horn very often, more often than any orchestral music or opera. Also, much "modern" music uses stopped horn. The show I am playing right now has at least 15 different places for stopped horn. There is NO way to use a stop mute for this writing as I am more often going from a open note to stopped with no time With the mic. placement, I have to perfect, always, with intonation and attack. Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped horn, found everywhere in Broadway horn..
In Broadway music, the horn writing requires stopped horn very often, more often than any orchestral music or opera. Also, much "modern" music uses stopped horn. The show I am playing right now has at least 15 different places for stopped horn. There is NO way to use a stop mute for this writing as I am more often going from a open note to stopped with no time With the mic. placement, I have to perfect, always, with intonation and attack. Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C?
Robert, did you ever read my messages ? I think, you did never. Robert, do you know that there is a difference in technique between "hand stopped" and "hand muted" ? Obviously you dont. I might recommend reading an old hand horn methode or one of the earlier methodes for valve horn where all this is described. It is a fact, that "handstopping" rises the pitch & "handmuting" lowers the pitch. During the handhorn time VERY FEW notes were stopped except for the special sfz-effect, but MOST notes were handmuted. You are right about the physical mechanism of the stopping technique (Dr.Pyle´s long article in the HORNCALL years ago), but this is just confusing for the not physicians within the horn playing community. So we just continue with the old rules: stopping requires transposing down for 1/2-tone to compensate the risen pitch, muting requires transposing up a 1/2-tone to compensate the lowered pitch. That is fact. But there are some notes which are possible with both techniques but require a compromise, as they are perfectly weak if produced the orthodox way. Therefore: the player has to leave alone the + (requiring "stopped") & produce the required stopped note in a compromise way, so it is produced easily & safe & intonated & in the required strength. First: on the F-side only Second: with the regular mute Third: the regular mute lifted somewhat out Fourth: the sound colour changed a bit to the edgy side This relates to the notes around middle "c" (= c1), means from g below middle c to e above middle c. Stopped notes there are rarely found and if, every conductor is happy if one produces these notes AUDIBLE and INTONATES PERFECTLY. Fifth: NOBODY CARES HOW YOU PRODUCE THAT NOTES, IF THEY ARE IN TUNE. Composers: it is wise to avoid these notes in stopped. QUESTION: Why are amateurs & amateur orchestra conductors & teachers in the province so curious about such ? It is unimportant - UNIMPORTANT - for the music. And in contemporanean music ? Most of these writers (I avoid the word composers, ever there are very very few) agglomerate effects with other effects, the stranger the better, and try to make us believe it were music . Question: Where do you find more stopped notes ? In concert or in opera ? So believe me, there is more in opera (Puccini, R.Strauss, R.Wagner, etc.), and what I said above comes from my experience with hand horn, which was my first instrument before the single F & I play it since childhood, and from my 45 years in full time opera orchestras. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rob schmidtke Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:02 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C? Try this exercises, play written G (second Line in staff) Close your hand like a gate or door, not stuffing your hand in the bell. Students I have with small hands I find are usually trying to get their hand too far in the bell. For me (very large hand), I keep my regular hand position and "close" it off. If done correctly the pitch will drop, yes drop not go up. keep the same relaxed embouchure, to ensure that the note drops to an F. Now try an E (first line) do the same and it will drop to a C#. and on the written C ( middle C) it will drop to a G#. When we stop a note the pitch actually drops to 1/2 step above the next lowest partial. The best fingerings to use are 1/2 step below the note you are trying to play, always (well usually) on the f horn. I personally always play stopped on the f horn , not on Bb. I hope this exercises helps out, it has helped my students greatly. I think it helps to know that what happens to the horn when we stop it and what we are trying to do are two separate things. Rob Schmidtke Valerie WELLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I visited Dillon music in Woodbridge, NJ yesterday. I tried out about 10 used horns & 3 new Alex's. [Oh what heavenly horns those Alex's are!] Anyway, with my small paw, I was able to play stopped horn in tune on every horn for every note I tried except middle C. For some reason I don't quite understand, I could only get ONE horn to speak a middle C stopped. I didn't have a lot of time to work with these instruments trying alternate fingerings, etc., but was struck finding that middle C stopped seems to be a big problem note, at least for me. Or is this typical for many players on other horns? I played on a very interesting used horn, an old Sansone double made in NYC. Tightly wrapped, nice tone, but must have weighted 10 pounds. Heaviest horn I've ever hefted. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C?
Try this exercises, play written G (second Line in staff) Close your hand like a gate or door, not stuffing your hand in the bell. Students I have with small hands I find are usually trying to get their hand too far in the bell. For me (very large hand), I keep my regular hand position and "close" it off. If done correctly the pitch will drop, yes drop not go up. keep the same relaxed embouchure, to ensure that the note drops to an F. Now try an E (first line) do the same and it will drop to a C#. and on the written C ( middle C) it will drop to a G#. When we stop a note the pitch actually drops to 1/2 step above the next lowest partial. The best fingerings to use are 1/2 step below the note you are trying to play, always (well usually) on the f horn. I personally always play stopped on the f horn , not on Bb. I hope this exercises helps out, it has helped my students greatly. I think it helps to know that what happens to the horn when we stop it and what we are trying to do are two separate things. Rob Schmidtke Valerie WELLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I visited Dillon music in Woodbridge, NJ yesterday. I tried out about 10 used horns & 3 new Alex's. [Oh what heavenly horns those Alex's are!] Anyway, with my small paw, I was able to play stopped horn in tune on every horn for every note I tried except middle C. For some reason I don't quite understand, I could only get ONE horn to speak a middle C stopped. I didn't have a lot of time to work with these instruments trying alternate fingerings, etc., but was struck finding that middle C stopped seems to be a big problem note, at least for me. Or is this typical for many players on other horns? I played on a very interesting used horn, an old Sansone double made in NYC. Tightly wrapped, nice tone, but must have weighted 10 pounds. Heaviest horn I've ever hefted. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rob_schmidtke%40yahoo.com - Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C?
Most people have problems stopping middle c (= c1) by hand. But why dont you read my posts where I explained how to do it: Do it with 12 on F horn & "mute" it down. It is not as edgy as with the stop mute but better audible. But when will you need it ? How often ? As an amateur ? Why you amateurs, why are you going for the extreme so often ? And in the case you have to produce it very well in tune as requested (my methode above is just a weak compromise) use the regular mute, lift it a bit out & play a bit edgier as regular. No conductor will listen the difference, you are in safe haven, intonation is kept. It does not matter how you produce a certain not. The audible result only is important. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:40 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C? I visited Dillon music in Woodbridge, NJ yesterday. I tried out about 10 used horns & 3 new Alex's. [Oh what heavenly horns those Alex's are!] Anyway, with my small paw, I was able to play stopped horn in tune on every horn for every note I tried except middle C. For some reason I don't quite understand, I could only get ONE horn to speak a middle C stopped. I didn't have a lot of time to work with these instruments trying alternate fingerings, etc., but was struck finding that middle C stopped seems to be a big problem note, at least for me. Or is this typical for many players on other horns? I played on a very interesting used horn, an old Sansone double made in NYC. Tightly wrapped, nice tone, but must have weighted 10 pounds. Heaviest horn I've ever hefted. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C?
That old Sansone double is the one that was parodied in the old Schmutzig Method in which a light bulb was included in the many "capabilities" of the horn. They might have added a skyhook to hold the horn up. Pete Exline ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped horn -- what's with middle C?
I visited Dillon music in Woodbridge, NJ yesterday. I tried out about 10 used horns & 3 new Alex's. [Oh what heavenly horns those Alex's are!] Anyway, with my small paw, I was able to play stopped horn in tune on every horn for every note I tried except middle C. For some reason I don't quite understand, I could only get ONE horn to speak a middle C stopped. I didn't have a lot of time to work with these instruments trying alternate fingerings, etc., but was struck finding that middle C stopped seems to be a big problem note, at least for me. Or is this typical for many players on other horns? I played on a very interesting used horn, an old Sansone double made in NYC. Tightly wrapped, nice tone, but must have weighted 10 pounds. Heaviest horn I've ever hefted. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Reba, To expand on Milton's adive, a good stop mute to use for low register is the Thompson Edition stop mute; it also has the advantage of not being expensive. I've found the popular Crown stop mute works poorly in the low register. Loren \@() [EMAIL PROTECTED] 011 1 (520) 289-0700 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Yea Reba, Get a good stop mute. I have been playing 4th horn for almost... well a very long time and I have always used a stop mute in the low register. I have a very small hand and no matter how many hours of stop horn practice, different techniques or whatever, I cannot reliably stop below 2nd line g. In addition, some stop stuff is written p or pp, and I cannot get a buzz... o my don't misread that.. if I am trying to play soft. Milton Milton Kicklighter 4th horn Buffalo Phil --- Reba McLaurin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is there any way I can make the stopping more secure in the lower > register? It tends to sound more like a bassoon than a horn down > there. > > > On 8/10/07, hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do not care about this. "Stopped horn" sounds somewhat > > "comical", so these "children" in the orchestras tend to > > lookk for the player, children, who do not understand the > > "stopped horn". Many orchestras consist of a bunch of > > "children" (mentally children). > > > > You have to live with this fact. > > > > PS: Perhaps you do exaggerate the "stopping" where it should > > be most decent ??? > > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Reba McLaurin > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 4:49 AM > > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > > Subject: [Hornlist] stopped horn > > > > Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone turns > > around and glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed > > passage. How can I stop this? > > Reba > > ___ > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > > unsubscribe or set options at > > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > > de > > > > > > ___ > > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sallym.of.mclaurin%40gmail.com > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo.com > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Hello Rebecca, it all depends on the size of your hand & the size of the bell. To get a better result for the "few occasions" playing stopped very low - it is rarely in prominent voice - use a wooden mute, lift it a bit & play with an edgy sound. You will be heard better, intonation is much better, you will gain self confidence for this task. After experimenting a bit, you will find it the best way. Nobody will ask you, how you produce the required sounds, they just listen. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reba McLaurin Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 12:59 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] stopped horn Is there any way I can make the stopping more secure in the lower register? It tends to sound more like a bassoon than a horn down there. > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sallym.of.mcl aurin%40gm > ail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Is there any way I can make the stopping more secure in the lower register? It tends to sound more like a bassoon than a horn down there. On 8/10/07, hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Do not care about this. "Stopped horn" sounds somewhat > "comical", so these "children" in the orchestras tend to > lookk for the player, children, who do not understand the > "stopped horn". Many orchestras consist of a bunch of > "children" (mentally children). > > You have to live with this fact. > > PS: Perhaps you do exaggerate the "stopping" where it should > be most decent ??? > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Reba McLaurin > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 4:49 AM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: [Hornlist] stopped horn > > Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone turns > around and glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed > passage. How can I stop this? > Reba > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. > de > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/sallym.of.mclaurin%40gmail.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Do not care about this. "Stopped horn" sounds somewhat "comical", so these "children" in the orchestras tend to lookk for the player, children, who do not understand the "stopped horn". Many orchestras consist of a bunch of "children" (mentally children). You have to live with this fact. PS: Perhaps you do exaggerate the "stopping" where it should be most decent ??? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reba McLaurin Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 4:49 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] stopped horn Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone turns around and glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed passage. How can I stop this? Reba ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] stopped horn
Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Gary --- Reba McLaurin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone > turns around and > glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed > passage. How can I > stop this? > Reba > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/beowulf_36%40yahoo.com > Get Firefox!!http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/central.html ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] stopped horn
A pointy stick ought to do the trick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reba McLaurin Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:49 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] stopped horn Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone turns around and glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed passage. How can I stop this? Reba ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.c om No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: 8/8/2007 5:38 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: 8/8/2007 5:38 PM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] stopped horn
Whenever I play stopped horn in orchestra everyone turns around and glares at me. Especially if it's a low exposed passage. How can I stop this? Reba ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped Horn Ranges, Part 2
Hello, Horn Players. My Extreme Thanks to all of you, who sent good advice to me, by public and private E-Mails! Bear Woodson Symphony No. 1 (Based on ideas from the mid-1970's, and begun in Finale Print on July 4, 2004, but put aside to finish other works. Work resumed on February 10, 2006.) This symphony is also somewhat of a Concerto for Orchestra, with good solos for EACH: Wind Player, Percussionist, the Harpist, First Chair String Soloist and Each String Section, most of which were fulfilled in the 29-minute First Movement. Scoring: Standard Woodwinds in 3's; 6 Horns in F, 3 Trumpets in Bb (or C), Euphonium, Tuba; Timpanist (4 Timpani), 3 Percussionists; Harp; and Strings planned movements and timings: I Moderato 29' 10" (completed on May 7, 2006) (It is 135 pages, 838 bars, 30471 notes and over 3.7 Megs in my Finale File.) (It concludes with 2 more of my "Quadruple Directional Stretto Fugues" which "strettos" or "overlaps" the Main 8-bar Horn Theme in Original, Inversion, Retrograde and Retrograde-Inversion at the same time in beautiful harmony!) II Vivace, ma primativo (planning 10 min.) (It is an ABA Form, with loud, rowdy, barbaric drumming in the two "A" Sections, like a Percussion Concerto. The First "A" Section is done at over 4 minutes long. The Middle "B" Section is still in progress, but will be the longest "Retrograde-Inversion Canon" in history at 3 minutes [which breaks my previous record of 2-Minutes each in two different "Retrograde-Inversion Canon Movements" in two different Duo works]. The "B" Section is also a happy-go-lucky "Moto Perpetuo" ["Perpetual Motion" piece], that returns to a rowdy Second "A" Section, with thicker orchestration than the first. IIIslow (planning 20 min.) (planning to feature the Strings) IVfast (planning 15 min.) (planning to be over an hour in length) I've gone through the first 170+ pages (35 minutes) of the C Score of my First Symphony so far, looking for Stopped Horn Passages. There was only one Stopped Horn Chord in the First Movement, which was 2 bars of 3/4 (at Quarter-Note = 96), played by 3 horns in the Treble Clef. (In other words, this is no problem, and they had plenty of time to Stop and Open their horns. In fact I am always careful to give plenty of time for Adding or Removing Mutes for Brass or Strings, Retuning the Timpani, Changing Percussion Instruments or Mallets, or Changing Harp Pedals, etc. I stopped composing for many years, but I began orchestrating 35 years ago! In the last few years I've written several Horn Works, including a Horn Concerto in both Full Orchestral and Piano Reduction Scores.) Near the end of the Fast Second Movement's First "A" Section, I have Horns 1, 3 & 5 playing Muted Chords, and contrast them against Open Chords in Horns 2, 4 & 6 for a few phrases. Finally I have Horns 2, 4 & 6 play some Treble Ranged Stopped Chords, which, again are no problem due to range and longer note values. My concerns were in the Fast Second Movement's "B" Section, which is entirely in 4/4 Meter, at Quarter- Note = 120. The Stopped Horn Chords are in Horns 1, 3 & 5, on Eighth-Notes and Eighth-Rests for 4 bars, as they accompany the Running 16th-Notes in other instruments as the "Moto Perpetuo". In the passage in question, the First Horn stays in the Treble Range, but the 3rd and 5th Horn go a bit too low for Stopped Horn Notes. Based on advice from all of you, I've switched a few things around, so now Horns 3 & 5 have several seconds to Insert their Mutes, while the First Horn can retain the "pinched" Stopped Horn Timbre, and they are all marked at Forte. With the First Horn on top of those chords, it should give the illusion that all 3 of those horns are Stopped, and enhance the jaunty, nasal timbre. The Running 16th-Note Moto Perpetuo line is in the Clarinets and then Straight-Muted Trumpet above the Stopped/Muted 8th-Note Horn Chords, while Cello and Bass Quarter-Note pizzacati fulfill the Root Functions to the Horn Chords. The only other accom- paniment is the coloristic Metallic Click of the Closed Hi-Hat, being struck by the Drummer, in time with the Horn Chords. I think it will prove to be a nice effect. I have been doing research on Rare and Difficult Counterpoint for YEARS, and am the ONLY composer in history PROVEN to have Invented NINE New Categories of Fugues! (Those 9 are copyrighted and sent to various experts around the world over a year ago, but I've since Invented Four More!) The Counterpoint that I use in the "B" Section of the Fast Second Movement is formidable, even for me! Here is a brief explanation that describes Most (but NOT ALL) of the complicated rules in writing it: The "Original" ["Forward-going"] Melody alter- nate
RE: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn and Muted Horn Ranges?
Stopped horn is very effectful if used for single notes in sf, not for whole passages & not for longer sequences moving around. Some repeated notes, like four 1/16th, come out fine. Lower than written f1 (F-horn notation) - it is the f in the first space from bottom - (Bear, couldn´t you also use the internationally used note names as c1 = "c" on the first ledger line below staff and the c below that would be "c" and again one octave lower be "C" ??). Anyway, stopped notes used plenty will not have any effect more. Stopped notes below notated f1 result in nothing more than a bumble bee´s grumble, as everyone uses a stop mute. If lower than c1, it becomes inaudible nearly. Notated higher than g2 (on top of the staff) the intonation will be out of control (getting too sharp). Using a mute would be a fine solution for slow passages to create an echo effect or create the illusion of a great distance. But anyway, it will not be as clear as desired, if these muted passages are part of a fast movement. Four measures here or there, fine, but not longer. It will nerve players & listeners. And the intonation problems remain in the high & the low register. What be the range for muted passages ? From c1 to g2 - means all notes from first ledger line below to last note upon staff. If muted & stopped are just used, because they are available, they become senseless. R.Strauss, Puccini, Wagner, Mahler knew where to use these effects & how to use them. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bear Woodson Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 2:56 AM To: Horn List Cc: Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn and Muted Horn Ranges? Hello, Horn Players. What is too high and too low of a Range for Stopped Horn Notes, or should I switch to using Muted Horn Notes? Are Stopped Horn Notes effective at the Written C, an octave BELOW Middle C? (If not, since this passage that I'm writing uses Stopped Horn Chords, I can simply have the Lowest Horns switch to Mutes.) This is for a passage in the Fast Second Movement of my First Symphony. Please advise me. Several months ago, you people advised me on the Ranges of my 6 Horns for this work, and a rowdy passage in the First Movement, where all 11 of my brasses (the 6 Horns, 3 Trumpets, Euphonium and Tuba), are playing loud, Growling Trills. It works well! My Thanks to all of you! Now I need your advise for the Stopped and Muted Note Ranges. I thank you in advance. Bear Woodson Composer in Tucson, Arizona, USA The Only Composer in history PROVEN to have Invented NINE New Categories of Fugues. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped Horn and Muted Horn Ranges?
Hello, Horn Players. What is too high and too low of a Range for Stopped Horn Notes, or should I switch to using Muted Horn Notes? Are Stopped Horn Notes effective at the Written C, an octave BELOW Middle C? (If not, since this passage that I'm writing uses Stopped Horn Chords, I can simply have the Lowest Horns switch to Mutes.) This is for a passage in the Fast Second Movement of my First Symphony. Please advise me. Several months ago, you people advised me on the Ranges of my 6 Horns for this work, and a rowdy passage in the First Movement, where all 11 of my brasses (the 6 Horns, 3 Trumpets, Euphonium and Tuba), are playing loud, Growling Trills. It works well! My Thanks to all of you! Now I need your advise for the Stopped and Muted Note Ranges. I thank you in advance. Bear Woodson Composer in Tucson, Arizona, USA The Only Composer in history PROVEN to have Invented NINE New Categories of Fugues. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Since the pitch is lowered a half step by shortening the horn a little, Huh??? -- Kjellrun K. Hestekin School of Music, MUN St. John's, NFLD. CANADA A1C 5S7 ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
On Sunday, September 12, 2004, at 02:12 AM, carson smith wrote: Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson Try Bob's column, "AudioPyle' in HORN CALL vol. XXI, no. 1, pp. 36-43 "Factititious Tones and Hand Stopping." Paul Mansur (editor at the time of publication. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Here it is. Unfortunately my university only has issues back to 1976. There seem to be a lot of articles on the subject so I'm sure I will find something in a latter issue. Thanks for all you help with this! --Carson The Horn Call February 1971 Volume I, Number 1 Pyle, Robert W., Jr. "A Theory of Hand-Stopping." 53 From: Greg Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:27:52 -0700 carson smith wrote: Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson The index to all the articles in The Horn Call can be found on the IHS's website, www.hornsociety.org Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/carsonsmith3236%40hotmail.com _ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
This is quite an helpful article, but Why does the writer use concert pitch (using F-Horn) ? This is just disturbing. Why does the author say "for any given fingering" ? The fingering is not relevant at all as it just changes the length of the sounding wave. The phenomenon is more or less equal, tending to result in sharp pitch or flat pitch according to length of the tube, but remaining the same basically. If the valve is activated, the tube´s length will be increased, but the "jumping effect" will also occur. If the samples would be reduced to the plain (no name) row of natural tones (pitches), the function would remain better understandable for the average horn player, - but the article might be shorter also. For extensive research results, I would recommend Dr.Robert Pyle´s studies again. > carson smith schreef: > > > Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? > > Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson > > > > I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but there is an article > here http://www.well.com/user/smalin/hornstop.htm > Michiel van der Linden > Bruges, Belgium > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/gix3514%40gmx.at > -- SigfridFafner the under ground horn player from Vienna Supergünstige DSL-Tarife + WLAN-Router für 0,- EUR* Jetzt zu GMX wechseln und sparen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
carson smith schreef: Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but there is an article here http://www.well.com/user/smalin/hornstop.htm Michiel van der Linden Bruges, Belgium ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
carson smith wrote: Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson The index to all the articles in The Horn Call can be found on the IHS's website, www.hornsociety.org Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Does anyone know what issue Dr. Robert Pyle's article can be found in? Or any other articles on this subject? Thanks, Carson From: "Hans Pizka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:33:37 +0200 (MEST) It seems a bit difficult to fill the mouth with helium at many places where stopping occurs right after a very short pause of just half a measure or less, like before the last written long held "e" in the Long Call. And to Carson: timber & timbre a most different things. To William: the F horn came first place not because of the abilities to produce a better pitched stopped sound. It came as first choice because of the sound qualities (4 - 5 additional sounds enriching the quality, while the Bb horn has 1 - 3, the high F just the mere wave). Indeed, one can arrive at similar sound qualities with a well blown Bb horn, and sometimes the Bb horn must be the only choice for the best result. Also, these decisions are not for the average non professional but for the very professional who really controls the horn. William & Karl gave quite excellent explanations for the "gestopft" & "gedaempft" (Echo horn is not the same as "hand muted" or "gedaempft" , it is a different effect), while Graeme pointed to the complexity of this thematic & its only relevance for academic research without any practical benefit. Knowing what to do rigt for the best possible result is much more important than all theories. For those interested earnestly, I would recommend to read the articles provided by acoustician & horn player Dr.Robert Pyle, some 15 years ago in the Horn Call. Greetings from Madrid Hans (on tour with Zubin Mehta, Don Quixote & Heldenleben) == <<< A similar effect happens when you > introduce dense air into the > column - try filling your horn (and mouth) with helium (very dense > compared to nitrogen) and > you'll notice the pitch rise quite a bit and a stopped horn tone quality > without the hand in the > bell. .>>>> -- SigfridFafner the under ground horn player from Vienna Superg?nstige DSL-Tarife + WLAN-Router f?r 0,- EUR* Jetzt zu GMX wechseln und sparen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/carsonsmith3236%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
It seems a bit difficult to fill the mouth with helium at many places where stopping occurs right after a very short pause of just half a measure or less, like before the last written long held "e" in the Long Call. And to Carson: timber & timbre a most different things. To William: the F horn came first place not because of the abilities to produce a better pitched stopped sound. It came as first choice because of the sound qualities (4 - 5 additional sounds enriching the quality, while the Bb horn has 1 - 3, the high F just the mere wave). Indeed, one can arrive at similar sound qualities with a well blown Bb horn, and sometimes the Bb horn must be the only choice for the best result. Also, these decisions are not for the average non professional but for the very professional who really controls the horn. William & Karl gave quite excellent explanations for the "gestopft" & "gedaempft" (Echo horn is not the same as "hand muted" or "gedaempft" , it is a different effect), while Graeme pointed to the complexity of this thematic & its only relevance for academic research without any practical benefit. Knowing what to do rigt for the best possible result is much more important than all theories. For those interested earnestly, I would recommend to read the articles provided by acoustician & horn player Dr.Robert Pyle, some 15 years ago in the Horn Call. Greetings from Madrid Hans (on tour with Zubin Mehta, Don Quixote & Heldenleben) == <<< A similar effect happens when you > introduce dense air into the > column - try filling your horn (and mouth) with helium (very dense > compared to nitrogen) and > you'll notice the pitch rise quite a bit and a stopped horn tone quality > without the hand in the > bell. . -- SigfridFafner the under ground horn player from Vienna Superg?nstige DSL-Tarife + WLAN-Router f?r 0,- EUR* Jetzt zu GMX wechseln und sparen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
The pitch rises when the stopping is complete enough to effectively shorten the horn to an F# instrument, for an F horn. It raises a Bb horn more than a half step, and requires a separate stopping valve. I suspect this effect is why the horn is in F in the first place. Otherwise, they would have made it in Bb, the way most people play it. carson smith wrote on 9/11/2004, 2:38 PM: > I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It > involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I > have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic > series as > it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not > understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch > when it > is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward > some good > references? Thank you, Carson > > _ > Donât just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Now what I still don't get is why the pitch goes up. --Carson This subject has been trauled over "ad nauseum" over the years. What actually happens when one carefully and gradually closes the hand into the fully stopped position is that the pitch lowers to within one semitone of the next lowest harmonic. It is closest to a semitone for the open horn in F. Shorter tube lengths will be progressively sharper than a semitone, and longer lengths progressively flatter. For the horn in F therefore, you end up with a harmonic series one semitone higher than the normal series, except right at the fundamental, which tends to disappear. When playing an open note, and suddenly closing the hand, for most of us the tone jumps to the stopped harmonic above, and needs the semitone downward correction we are all used to. Remember that this stopped harmonic is derived from the next open harmonic above! This explains why trying to stop on Bb side fingerings can be very sharp, and why a stopping valve slightly longer than a semitone is needed on Bb horns and descants, where the longer tube lengths are not available. The physics of all this is very complex, and is probably only of academic interest to the scientists amongst us. Cheers, Graeme Evans (Principal Horn, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra) +61 3 9318 0690(H), +61 419 880371(B), +61 3 93180893(Fax) E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Based on your responses and what I have read: Pitch gets lower as hand moves in. Pitch decays exponentially? with hand opening. Thus as the hand gets very close the pitch goes down faster (this explains why the shift is so abrupt). So much so that the fundamental is gone and the 1st harmonic is now the fundamental. So then you buzz your lips to match the new frequency. But it is hard to tell it is a new frequency because of the timber (sp?) of the stopped sound. Now what I still dont get is why the pitch goes up. --Carson _ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
You will likely receive an avalanche of responses arguing if the pitch goes up or down but as you have correctly observed it does both. As your hand closes off the bell it effects the sound waves as you mentioned and lowers the pitch. This lowered pitch also maintains its relative position in the overtone series (eg. an 8th harmonic C on the F horn becomes an 8th harmonic "C" [sounds like a B] on the E horn). The lips respond by vibrating at the friendliest frequency and follow the pitch downward to the optimum resonance without concern of where it sits on the overtone series. I think your question deals with this mysterious transition where the pitch suddenly becomes the lower harmonic of a higher overtone series without the feel of a pop or any noticeable audible click. The hand placement can't account for the change since it simply does not move at all further in from the position of Echo horn to Stopped horn. I've looked for and read several materials but have not found a reasonable explanation for this transition. Keep in mind that most people don't even know this transition exists. You may want to look into the fact that the air column behaves differently in a highly compressed environment. By nearly sealing the bell and continuing to blow air into the tube you increase the air pressure. The sound waves (regular clustering of compressed air themselves) respond relative to the environment and we perceive this as a higher pitch with several stronger than normal overtones (color or buzz). A similar effect happens when you introduce dense air into the column - try filling your horn (and mouth) with helium (very dense compared to nitrogen) and you'll notice the pitch rise quite a bit and a stopped horn tone quality without the hand in the bell. I think you ought to look into how sound behaves with changes in air pressure and remember that the lip buzz (vibration frequency) simply gravitates toward the optimum resonance with no concern of placement in the overtone series. I'd consult studies that deal with sound that travels from air into water for instance. As a side note: many folks don't realize that a fixed length of tube, like let's say what a natural horn has, has three overtone series available to it. A horn pitched in Eb has the Open Eb overtone series, an Echo (hand covering but not sealing) D overtone series, and a Stopped (virtually closed off) E overtone series. Karl Kemm Del Mar College carson smith wrote: > I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It > involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I > have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic series as > it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not > understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch when it > is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward some good > references? Thank you, Carson > > _ > Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/kkemm%40delmar.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Carson, I am a player, not an acoustics person, so let me tell you what I know and what I guess. Hopefully someone else can clarify it for us. First, what I know: The hand in the bell depresses the final node of the wave length. This changes many of the acoustical properties of the entire wave, including tone and pitch. It also changes the direction the wave follows (much like a bend in the tube). Assuming a horn in good working order with no large dents in the bell or throat, the wave leaves the horn perpendicular (90 degrees) to the bell. Here's the part where I am guessing: I do not stop the horn by jamming my hand straight up the bell, I bend the heel of my hand until it is closing the bell. As I bend my hand I am redirecting the wave from perpendicular to the bell to parallel to the bell. This gives the bell more distance to influence the wave, effectively lengthening the tube. When I arrive at the stopped hand position, the wave can no longer effectively get past my hand and the node shifts to the stopping point, changing the pitch up. I hope this helps you or gives someone else the motivation to try to explain it better. Respectfully, Scott - Original Message - From: carson smith Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 6:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch Scott, Then why is it that inserting the hand gradually lowers the pitch? --Carson ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Ack, I hope I didn't have dyslexia when I wrote the response. If anyone wishes to correct me feel free, but that's as I understand it anyways. -William In a message dated 9/11/2004 5:42:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Scott, Then why is it that inserting the hand gradually lowers the pitch? --Carson ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Well the truth is you're lowering the pitch a half step, however you're also changing the harmonic series of the horn. On an open F horn, the fundamental note is a C below the bass clef. This is because the fundamental note is derived from an open pipe. When you stop the horn, the pipe is then closed, so the fundamental is theoretically raised a full octave. Since the pitch is lowered a half step by shortening the horn a little, you technically end up with the harmonic series 12 half steps up (a full octave) but 1 half step down. This would mean 11 half steps up, so fingering it a half step down generally works because fingerings on the F side (where you generally play when stopped) are very similar an octave apart. Hope that explains? -William In a message dated 9/11/2004 5:42:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Scott, Then why is it that inserting the hand gradually lowers the pitch? --Carson ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Scott, Then why is it that inserting the hand gradually lowers the pitch? --Carson From: "scott young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "horn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:21:06 -0400 Carson, Because of the flare of the horn bell, the last node of the wave length is a few inches outside of the length of the horn. Placing you hand in the bell intensifies this effect (in essence, adding the length of your hand to the length of the tube). When you stop the horn with your hand, you move the node back (In other words, shorten the tube) to where your hand is closing the horn. This effectively shortens the F horn by a half step, depending on the bell size and the size of your horn. Respectfully, Scott - Original Message - From: carson smith Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 5:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic series as it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch when it is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward some good references? Thank you, Carson _ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/scott44y%40msn.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/carsonsmith3236%40hotmail.com _ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
Carson, Because of the flare of the horn bell, the last node of the wave length is a few inches outside of the length of the horn. Placing you hand in the bell intensifies this effect (in essence, adding the length of your hand to the length of the tube). When you stop the horn with your hand, you move the node back (In other words, shorten the tube) to where your hand is closing the horn. This effectively shortens the F horn by a half step, depending on the bell size and the size of your horn. Respectfully, Scott - Original Message - From: carson smith Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 5:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic series as it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch when it is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward some good references? Thank you, Carson _ Donât just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/scott44y%40msn.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
carson smith wrote: I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic series as it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch when it is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward some good references? I don't know if there has actually been any definitive study on what actually happens acoustically during hand stopping. There is, however, plenty of practical evidence about what happens that horn players can use to perform music. Check out articles from The Horn Call (especially some of the earlier issues) and you will discover great debate about the issue. This goes to show that regardless of how horn players *think* hand stopping works, they can all get the job done equally well. As far as explaining the acoustics, Cabbage can probably contribute to this thread, further confusing the whole issue. Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Stopped Horn Pitch
I am doing a report for a basic acoustics class on hand stopping. It involves a 1-2 page write up and a five minute presentation. From what I have read so far it seems as though the hand lowers the harmonic series as it is inserted by decreasing the number of standing waves. What I do not understand is why there seems to be a sudden semitone rise in pitch when it is fully stopped. Can anyone explain this to me or point me toward some good references? Thank you, Carson _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
