Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
C# and Db are actually two different notes. They are not the same in just intonation, which is what most of us play in. Mansur's Answers On May 17, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Valerie WELLS wrote: What I find challenging about centering pitch is that the same one note on my horn will sound lovely in one key, but hollow fuzzy in another key. I've tried monkeying with the tuning slides, lipping up, lipping down, using the tuner, more air ... you name it, but I just can't get a C # (just below the treble staff) to sound good in every key that has a C# in it. However, the same note, Db always seems to sound right in all the flat keys, major or minor. Drives me nuts. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
Right, Paul, so I finger the c# on F-side 12 the Db on the Bb-side with 23 or 1, depending on the context. C# leading up, db leading down. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Mansur Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 4:16 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch C# and Db are actually two different notes. They are not the same in just intonation, which is what most of us play in. Mansur's Answers On May 17, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Valerie WELLS wrote: What I find challenging about centering pitch is that the same one note on my horn will sound lovely in one key, but hollow fuzzy in another key. I've tried monkeying with the tuning slides, lipping up, lipping down, using the tuner, more air ... you name it, but I just can't get a C # (just below the treble staff) to sound good in every key that has a C# in it. However, the same note, Db always seems to sound right in all the flat keys, major or minor. Drives me nuts. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] RE: Centering Pitch (Now NHR)
We will. Just as soon as the last drop is used. Then I'll start using lanolin on my slides but what for valve oil? Biosene? Corn oil? KB In a message dated 5/18/2007 10:46:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It sure would be great if we could all lose our dependencies on petroleum, eh? (Just some food for thought.) ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Centering Pitch (Now NHR)
This is one of the biggest problems also here in Germany, where many people, far too many people have to travel long ways to their job, sometimes 1 1/2 to 2 hours one way. And job security ? All is fluctuating. If you get a good paid job move to the place, buying a house around there, you dont know if the company gets bancrupt after four or five years you have to move again. So you travel. You can do it by the high speed train in one hour. This is not so expensive if you buy a flat rate train ticket, often supported financially by the company. But business life here has converted to the American style, American contracts, etc. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeremy Cucco Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 3:43 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Centering Pitch (Now NHR) message: 14 date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:59:42 +0200 from: hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: RE: [Hornlist] centering pitch Sorry, Kendall, we pay between 6.30 6.50 $ (US) per gallon DIESEL, by far more than you pay. True, but do you have to drive 120 miles a day round trip to get to your job? Many people here in the US have to out of necessity. A small, old house in Arlington, VA would cost me $1.2 Million (USD). My (rather large) home 55 miles south of Arlington cost me $360,000. Despite the fact that I work in Arlington, I certainly can't afford to live there (even though the pay is quite high). Driving that much per day is the only way to afford to work. It sure would be great if we could all lose our dependencies on petroleum, eh? (Just some food for thought.) Cheers! Jeremy No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.3/809 - Release Date: 5/17/2007 5:18 PM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
On 05/17 15:49, Valerie WELLS wrote: What I find challenging about centering pitch is that the same one note on my horn will sound lovely in one key, but hollow fuzzy in another key. I've tried monkeying with the tuning slides, lipping up, lipping down, using the tuner, more air ... you name it, but I just can't get a C # (just below the treble staff) to sound good in every key that has a C# in it. However, the same note, Db always seems to sound right in all the flat keys, major or minor. Drives me nuts. ~Valerie Often times just changing the symbol used for a note will completely change it's impression in our minds, so much so that it takes awhile to remember how the pitch itself should feel on the instrument, especially with accidentals and keys. What I've found helpful for myself is sometimes not touching the slides, or moving, and not using a tuner at all, and closing the book, and just playing the pitch on the instrument, letting it sound how it wants to sound, letting it be where it wants to be. Then, once, it feels better, I'll open the music, and try playing around with the notes close to the problem note, forward, backwards, randomly leaving notes out or adding them, or other things that are pretty random. Each time the problem note approaches, I'll try and clear my mind and just remember how it felt by itself in its most comfortable place, and try to return there. Eventually, it becomes normal instead of abnormal, and there is a good habit formed. -- Evan Cofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Play in a classical music Garage Band. See the world. http://www.mylifeismusic.org/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
Yes, no wonder the C# drives you nutes, if you play it on the F-side (perhaps, - with 12) , but do not get too much excited about this defect. The C# is sensitive for the valve combination (as all notes requiring more than one valve activated). Such notes react badly if the slides have a wrong length together. But why dont you play it as a flat note convert all C#-s to Db-s play them on your Bb-side (23). This works - you said it also that the Db works. I think the biggest problem is it, to think too much, far too much monkeying far too much. If you need the tuner, things are going wrong. Use the ears. It is much better. But you have to hear the pitches in advance. And how fuzzy hollow does the C# go in which tonalities ? Please, describe your mouthpiece ? Describe rim diameter width, bore, deepness of cup. Could be the source of your problems. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Valerie WELLS Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:50 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch What I find challenging about centering pitch is that the same one note on my horn will sound lovely in one key, but hollow fuzzy in another key. I've tried monkeying with the tuning slides, lipping up, lipping down, using the tuner, more air ... you name it, but I just can't get a C # (just below the treble staff) to sound good in every key that has a C# in it. However, the same note, Db always seems to sound right in all the flat keys, major or minor. Drives me nuts. ~Valerie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
Hello Evan, how long does this process of remembering take ? Is there time to do it this way, when playing together with others ? Isn´t it much better, fixing such problems by practising Long Notes Scales, but in the brutal way, which means ten times in a row with no fail. If failed, start over again. Targetting exercise: attack a given note in the requested way without licking the mouthpiece first or any other fuzzy adjustment. Just play, horn down, set on the lips, 3-4, go, repeat again again. If ten times in a row without fail works, go to the next note. Taking a rest from time to time works also. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Evan Cofsky Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 12:31 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch On 05/17 15:49, Valerie WELLS wrote: What I find challenging about centering pitch is that the same one note on my horn will sound lovely in one key, but hollow fuzzy in another key. I've tried monkeying with the tuning slides, lipping up, lipping down, using the tuner, more air ... you name it, but I just can't get a C # (just below the treble staff) to sound good in every key that has a C# in it. However, the same note, Db always seems to sound right in all the flat keys, major or minor. Drives me nuts. ~Valerie Often times just changing the symbol used for a note will completely change it's impression in our minds, so much so that it takes awhile to remember how the pitch itself should feel on the instrument, especially with accidentals and keys. What I've found helpful for myself is sometimes not touching the slides, or moving, and not using a tuner at all, and closing the book, and just playing the pitch on the instrument, letting it sound how it wants to sound, letting it be where it wants to be. Then, once, it feels better, I'll open the music, and try playing around with the notes close to the problem note, forward, backwards, randomly leaving notes out or adding them, or other things that are pretty random. Each time the problem note approaches, I'll try and clear my mind and just remember how it felt by itself in its most comfortable place, and try to return there. Eventually, it becomes normal instead of abnormal, and there is a good habit formed. -- Evan Cofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Play in a classical music Garage Band. See the world. http://www.mylifeismusic.org/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
On 05/18 07:36, hans wrote: Hello Evan, how long does this process of remembering take ? Is there time to do it this way, when playing together with others ? The remembering process is all part of playing, and the longer one lives and breathes and practices, the more refined it becomes. Isn?t it much better, fixing such problems by practising Long Notes Scales, but in the brutal way, which means ten times in a row with no fail. If failed, start over again. Targetting exercise: attack a given note in the requested way without licking the mouthpiece first or any other fuzzy adjustment. Just play, horn down, set on the lips, 3-4, go, repeat again again. If ten times in a row without fail works, go to the next note. Taking a rest from time to time works also. There is nothing to keep from using both techniques concurrently, either. Often when I'm practicing attacks as you describe, if I notice a certain note is being more troublesome, I'll switch to the softer, slower technique and find where it is. And then, once I'm comfortable with it again, I'll continue with sudden, random attacks. And sometimes I'll force myself to just find the note, and learn how to find it quickly even without having a chance to search for it slowly. But at the same time, having a good feel for where the note feels most comfortable and the whole range of colors and ranges possible on any instrument/mouthpiece/player combination, and how it feels to move from one place to another without forcing the note to be any one thing is also beneficial. Playing long, slow, relaxing sounds and exploring the entire space of any note is a good way to do that which doesn't deter when force just won't help. -- Evan Cofsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Play in a classical music Garage Band. See the world. http://www.mylifeismusic.org/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
I have a duet which seems to me to be perfect for Hans' suggestion. The pre-Baroque composer is unknown and I arranged it; it's called Discant, weighing in at 100KB. Let me know if you want it. At 7:54 AM +0200 5/14/07, hans wrote: Learn how Fifths Fourths will be CLEAN. They will be clean, if you will not notice any co-sounding strange noise. But this does not work well, if you do it alone. Look for a partner do it together - OCCASIONALLY. You will be surprised about the DEFECTS, but you will gain IMPROVEMENT dramatically. -- Carlberg Jones Skype - carlbergbmug Cornista - Orq. Sin. de Aguascalientes Aguascalientes, Ags. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
I have a duet which seems to me to be perfect for Hans' suggestion. The pre-Baroque composer is unknown and I arranged it; it's called Discant, weighing in at 100KB. Let me know if you want it. I've heard of this composer Discant B. Wright!!! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
Someone wrote that we unconsciously alter pitches (as they lay on the horn) a little bit to play them in tune. What about notes that are a little further out. you have to think about them, don't you? Should none be out that far (bad horn, bad embouchure causing?) ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch
Hello Simon others, As said before, this centering (core in the sound, not wobbling in the tonality) and centering the single pitches within the row of naturally given pitches (applies to any length of a brass instrument) is rather a matter of understanding the instrument, the embouchure, the teacher etc. What is the main problem ? You dont know ? Or you know it all much better than any teacher or experienced pro on this list, because you know all theoretic things happen when producing a certain pitch ? If so, you better should never raise any of these questions here again, because you know all better anyway. THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM (sorry, I forgot to mention, that I do not address Simon or any other single person here, but the COMMUNITY). How to solve this problem ? FORGET all theory about producing a sound what happen with the soundwave lips the horn, with waves travelling through the horn return up to the mouthpiece where they bounce from one side to the other. Forget it instantly. Place all this knowledge or better attempted explanations in a secret file of your brains secret library. But, - and here comes the important pount -, listen to your teacher. Learn the row of natural pitches BY HEART. Learn how to identify well pitched out of tune pitches by exercising these boring, very boring daily exercises. But do them while listening to your acoustical output MOST CRITICALLY, but not HYPERCRITICALLY. Remain in reality. If there is no understanding of the distances (intervals) of the pitches, all effort must remain helpless. Learn to do it WITHOUT the electronic tuner, which has the scales divided into equal fractions, but these fractions (intervals) are not equal. Learn the intervals by HEART. Learn how Fifths Fourths will be CLEAN. They will be clean, if you will not notice any co-sounding strange noise. But this does not work well, if you do it alone. Look for a partner do it together - OCCASIONALLY. You will be surprised about the DEFECTS, but you will gain IMPROVEMENT dramatically. Next: Learn understand, that you are NOT RIGHT at all times, but you ARE RIGHT sometimes. This means, if there is another player at least, they have to make a step towards the other - but each other. And repeated: improve your basic musical knowledge, no matter how boring this might be. Improve your basic skill of horn playing from time to time. But forget all this theoretical garbage about waves, weights, rays whatever - when playing. There is NO TIME for that. The concert is over then, before you have played the first two lines of the first piece, if you have to think critically about every note. - Theory is fine, absolutely, for those who can play allready, but it does never help those who have great difficulties producing a well tuned centered sound. Tuning the instrument adequately, well, this is the prerequisite anyway should not be mentioned again again. Right hand correction or lip correction, ALL CUM GRANO SALIS (all with most care). There is not much to lip up or down, just minimal. Right hand correction is nearly not noticeable, but one has to know when how. There are too many (music)deaf pig-eared enthusiasts around, who seem to know all better better, but fail fail fail again themselves. Believe the masters or even the local masters, obey their orders, try to copy what they do, try to better your playing your musical skill to ENJOY MUSIC BETTER, to ENJOY HORN PLAYING BETTER. And a WARNING to these over-ambitious teacher students: It is most dangerous exaggerate the ambition by e.g. allowing a student playing Strauss 2 in a recital, if the student has not even noticed, that written g1 is horrible flat played like a wolf note. Playing through a big piece without ruining a note is worthless, if the player has not a single idea about making music. Playing a piece playing the piece as a piece of music are two different pair of shoes like rubber boots Gucci high heels. So, in this case, a beautifully played Franz Strauss or any other concerto were much better. Sorry, have seen that on Youtube. It is the teacher, who must be blamed before the student. And we discuss about centering a pitch or sound = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Varnam Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 1:01 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: centering pitch from: Paul Mansur [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] centering pitch ending up with slides pulled out way too far. Ah! This is the problem a young lad I know has. From reading the Schilke article somebody introduced last week (He wrote At the last point of rarefaction, which occurs in front of the bell of the instrument, a standing node is formed which gives a rescinding node going back through the instrument and culminates itself in the larynx of the
