RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
Dave Weiner wrote, regarding the higher cost of a Yamaha 668V with its lighter rotors and other more labor-intensive methods of manufacture: the benefit is well worth the cost. When the distinction between a 668 and a 668V becomes what's holding back my playing, after first recovering from shock, then jumping for joy, I might consider it worth the cost. :) -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
Piston valves are made of plates and tubes, but don't seem to add to the cost of the instrument. With a little bit of thought, I'm sure improvements could be made, but standard construction seems quite adequate. It doesn't surprise me that Yamaha is discontinuing their 'custom' horns. I still have yet to play one of those 'custom' horns that is significantly better than the student model of the same design, although their assembly line horns play exceedingly well. I have yet to see any evidence that a large group of 'custom' horn builders can support themselves on wages low enough that Yamaha can compete in the world market. Who are these 'custom' builders, and where do their credentials and training come from? I have a strong suspicion that the ' custom' horn works is a subsidiary of the Emperor Suit Company. Caveat emptor. One advantage to owning seventeen horns is I've developed a pretty good idea of what makes a good horn good, at least to my satisfaction. -Original Message- From: Prof.Hans Pizka [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Horn List' horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 08:37:26 +0100 Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006) Steve, custom horns are made in very limited numbers custom, means in small series, with a lot more effort on controlling, which means, there is a lot more of working hours. So the cost increase. This is the one cost increasing factor. The other is the constructing of the hollow rotor, which is not done by maschining. As Dave said, they are made of tubes plates. Preparing the bigger tube with the plates on both sides the axle going through is enough delicate work, but inserting the bent tubes going through the holes is a real mess. Soldering these tubes is another mess, followed by machining the whole thing so it runs smoothly in the casings is a big mess. The result ? They thought these rotors would be lighter in weight then those made from solid stock, but fail. They resulted in lesss weight of few , very few grams. The machines did not run much faster, the horn was not much lighter on weight. But the working effort was too high. So they discontinued this model soon. And, is it necessary that the valves run that quickly, as most players have difficulties following the music in time anyway ? So regular valves are fast enough, if they work properly. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:08 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006) Ah - sounds like one of those a lot more cost for a little more benefit sort of things. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. Good to know, and thanks very much. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
[Photo] Yamaha 668VN - Full Double - 4400 US $ http://www.hornplayer.net/advert.asp?id=5419 I know of a 668N (Nickel) and a 668ND, same but with detachable bell. I confess my curiosity was raised by the price, as a 668ND goes for just under $3000 new. This http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/product/spec/brass/horn/p_main .htm#dh says that the difference is hollow versus solid valve rotors (and lacquer, but I'd think no lacquer would make it cost less, not more). Perhaps someone could explain the difference between hollow and solid valve rotors and how that might effect cost, playing, or both. Thanks in advance. Steve plays a 666N Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
Here's a shorter link to the same: http://tinyurl.com/9qww8 on Yamaha's web site. -S- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] du] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:32 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006) [Photo] Yamaha 668VN - Full Double - 4400 US $ http://www.hornplayer.net/advert.asp?id=5419 I know of a 668N (Nickel) and a 668ND, same but with detachable bell. I confess my curiosity was raised by the price, as a 668ND goes for just under $3000 new. This http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/winds/product/spec/bra ss/horn/p_main .htm#dh says that the difference is hollow versus solid valve rotors (and lacquer, but I'd think no lacquer would make it cost less, not more). Perhaps someone could explain the difference between hollow and solid valve rotors and how that might effect cost, playing, or both. Thanks in advance. Steve plays a 666N Freides ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
In a message dated 1/21/2006 3:32:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps someone could explain the difference between hollow and solid valve rotors and how that might effect cost, playing, or both. -- Steve, The 668V series is the now-discontinued Yamaha pro line of the 668. The pro line followed the custom line, or 800-series, at the top of Yamaha's offerings. The V-series 668 is no longer in production, although the V-series 667 is. As for hollow rotors, they are exactly that - hollow. The construction allows for a very light weight rotor that has less mass, making the horn a bit lighter and the valves a bit faster (at least in theory). Hollow rotors are far more expensive to construct because they have to be brazed out of tubes and plates, rather than simply machined out of bar stock. Dave Weiner Maryland Band Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
Ah - sounds like one of those a lot more cost for a little more benefit sort of things. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. Good to know, and thanks very much. -S- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] du] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 4:45 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006) In a message dated 1/21/2006 3:32:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps someone could explain the difference between hollow and solid valve rotors and how that might effect cost, playing, or both. -- Steve, The 668V series is the now-discontinued Yamaha pro line of the 668. The pro line followed the custom line, or 800-series, at the top of Yamaha's offerings. The V-series 668 is no longer in production, although the V-series 667 is. As for hollow rotors, they are exactly that - hollow. The construction allows for a very light weight rotor that has less mass, making the horn a bit lighter and the valves a bit faster (at least in theory). Hollow rotors are far more expensive to construct because they have to be brazed out of tubes and plates, rather than simply machined out of bar stock. Dave Weiner Maryland Band Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
In a message dated 1/21/2006 5:08:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ah - sounds like one of those a lot more cost for a little more benefit sort of things. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. Good to know, and thanks very much. -- Well, I'm not so sure about that. Although I don't know all the differences in these models, I am sure that valve design is not the only factor. Most of the cost factor in a brass instrument, leaving aside the question of RD, is labor, which can after practically every part of the instrument. Whether you feel that the benefit is small or large is truly an individual decision. You could make the same statement about any custom horn, but I am certain that those who play custom horns feel the cost is well worth the benefit. Dave Weiner Maryland Band Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
In a message dated 1/21/2006 11:19:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: certain that those who play custom horns feel the cost is well worth the benefit. -- As Willy Wonka would say, strike that, reverse. I meant that the benefit is well worth the cost. Dave Weiner Maryland Band Orchestra Brass Arts Unlimited ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006)
Steve, custom horns are made in very limited numbers custom, means in small series, with a lot more effort on controlling, which means, there is a lot more of working hours. So the cost increase. This is the one cost increasing factor. The other is the constructing of the hollow rotor, which is not done by maschining. As Dave said, they are made of tubes plates. Preparing the bigger tube with the plates on both sides the axle going through is enough delicate work, but inserting the bent tubes going through the holes is a real mess. Soldering these tubes is another mess, followed by machining the whole thing so it runs smoothly in the casings is a big mess. The result ? They thought these rotors would be lighter in weight then those made from solid stock, but fail. They resulted in lesss weight of few , very few grams. The machines did not run much faster, the horn was not much lighter on weight. But the working effort was too high. So they discontinued this model soon. And, is it necessary that the valves run that quickly, as most players have difficulties following the music in time anyway ? So regular valves are fast enough, if they work properly. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:08 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recent updates to hornplayer.net (21st January 2006) Ah - sounds like one of those a lot more cost for a little more benefit sort of things. Not that that's necessarily bad, of course. Good to know, and thanks very much. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
