Re: [Hornlist] Recording
I find the Zoom H2 perfectly satisfactory not only for recording myself, but for recording concerts. I don't have any problem with hiss with an external mic. If you want to be fancy and use a mic with phantom power, get the H4. Herb Foster From: Robert N. Ward To: The Horn List Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:46:00 PM Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording Have a look here: http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_interviewing/200703_recorder_reviews/ Lots of reviews and examples. B ** Robert N. Ward Principal Horn San Francisco Symphony rnw...@comcast.net On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Allen Smithson wrote: > Hello All,I'm currently shopping for a recording device so I can quickly > listen to practice sessions, lessons, auditions, and so on. I've been reading > some reviews on digital recording devices but I'm worried that these devices > will work great for voice recording and horribly for recording a horn. What > do you all use/like? Any help would greatly appreciated.Thanks,Allen > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rnward%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/herb_foster%40yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording
Be sure to check the ROM version. It can be flashed to read SDHC cards (above 2gb). John Kowalchuk Maker of mutes/horns/canoes/paddles/bikes Oshawa, Ontario http://kowalchukmutes.com Canadians don't surf the net, we paddle it. > -Original Message- > From: horn-bounces+hornontario=yahoo...@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn- > bounces+hornontario=yahoo...@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of Luke Zyla > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:32 PM > To: The Horn List > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording > > I just purchased a Zoom H4 recorder. It is a terrific device. Several > places have them on sale because there is a newer version coming out. I > purchased mine from N Stuff Music near Pittsburgh for only $219. > http://www.nstuffmusic.com/search.aspx?SearchTerm=zoom+h4&showpics=1 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
I just purchased a Zoom H4 recorder. It is a terrific device. Several places have them on sale because there is a newer version coming out. I purchased mine from N Stuff Music near Pittsburgh for only $219. http://www.nstuffmusic.com/search.aspx?SearchTerm=zoom+h4&showpics=1 - Original Message - From: "Allen Smithson" To: "The Horn List" Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:40 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording Hello All,I'm currently shopping for a recording device so I can quickly listen to practice sessions, lessons, auditions, and so on. I've been reading some reviews on digital recording devices but I'm worried that these devices will work great for voice recording and horribly for recording a horn. What do you all use/like? Any help would greatly appreciated.Thanks,Allen ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/lzyla%40suddenlink.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
Any of the current crop of devices from Zoom, Korg, Yamaha, Edirol and the like are perfectly adequate for horn practice sessions. I know an opera singer who will set his Korg on the back of the hall during rehearsal week in the theater and gets great results from 200 feet away. Paxmaha From: Allen Smithson To: The Horn List Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 7:40:10 PM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording Hello All,I'm currently shopping for a recording device so I can quickly listen to practice sessions, lessons, auditions, and so on. I've been reading some reviews on digital recording devices but I'm worried that these devices will work great for voice recording and horribly for recording a horn. What do you all use/like? Any help would greatly appreciated.Thanks,Allen ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/paxmaha%40yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
Have a look here: http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_interviewing/200703_recorder_reviews/ Lots of reviews and examples. B ** Robert N. Ward Principal Horn San Francisco Symphony rnw...@comcast.net On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Allen Smithson wrote: Hello All,I'm currently shopping for a recording device so I can quickly listen to practice sessions, lessons, auditions, and so on. I've been reading some reviews on digital recording devices but I'm worried that these devices will work great for voice recording and horribly for recording a horn. What do you all use/like? Any help would greatly appreciated.Thanks,Allen ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/rnward%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording information - Was: Horn Solo in Beatles "For No One"
Probably not - The Coles 4038 is a bidirectional microphone - it's side lobes are aiming into the room, meaning the points that it picks up the least are "the room." A pair of Coles in the middle of the room in a Blumlein configuration would have been a fantastic way to pick up the entire group and likely the way (or similar at least) that they actually did it for the real recording session. After all, that many tracks of tape would have been a commodity at that time. There'd be no reason to eat it all up with a mic on each instrument and a pair of room mics. Sorry for the quick hijack... :-) David A. Jewell wrote: folks, let's not forget the fact that "Give My Regards to Broad Street" is not intended as a documentary - it is in fact a fictionalized story that was filmed as entertainment cinema. Any accuracy in regards to the actual recording sessions,[of the Beatles] and or typical studio behavior is probably coincidental. As an aside, Jeremy Cucco pointed out the Coles mics agains the back gobos - any possibility they were being used as "room mics" for the strings? Paxmaha ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording debate
Hi William! I did enjoy the conversation that was tossed around, though I should say, I really intended to (and probably will) reply to Kendall a little more but have been on location recording gigs for about the past 2 weeks straight so haven't had the time (or at least not the patience to try and type a full-length reply on my iPhone.) I wouldn't really say it got into being a "wrangle" - just a healthy discussion. I think it's always interesting to hear a couple different sides of the recording story - from both sides of the microphone. Cheers- Jeremy PS - If anyone has a great deal more interest in recording, particularly that which pertains to location recording for symphonic works, choral, wind ensemble, etc I co-moderate a forum at www.recording.org known as the Acoustic Music Forum. This forum is truly focused on precisely this kind of recording. My co-moderators are orchestral recording engineers from L.A., Philly, and Sydney AU and we've got regular contributions from many of the "big wigs" including many Grammy winning engineers, etc. Most of the guys/gals that run around that forum are professional musicians as well and truly know their craft. It's a treasure trove of knowledge. -Original Message- From: William Botte [mailto:wab4...@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:02 PM To: horn-requests Subject: [Hornlist] Recording debate Good afternoon, Last weeks' recording discussion quickly turned into a wrangle and a primer on recording studio techniques. I think Kendall was decrying the none too subtle affect that the recording industry was/is having on individualism of tone production and musical interpretation by musicians and orchestras. Several years ago during a rehearsal with cast of a production the 'King and I', the conductor was informed that all tempi were to follow exactly the tempi on the VHS recording. The recorded template was the director and conductors' objective. The cast had to follow suit also. I don't know if this approach is prevalent in schools and horn studios, I hope not. But relying on digital recordings as objects of perfection will stifle intellectual and musical curiosity. On another note, I bought a used Pizka mouthpiece last week. My mistakes clams and bleeeahs are much better sounding now. Thanks Hans Carpe Kopprash _ Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-c ns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording story
Hmm... you mean that "f...@#k!" isn't lower Slobovian dialect for "stop"?? Uh oh... Sincerely, martin bender On 22-Feb-09, at 6:49 PM, Richard wrote: Joe Scarpelli reported: When they were recording, if Mason [Jones] heard something he didn't like in the Horn section, he would kick over his stand which would of course force them to start over. It wasn't clear if this was a onetime occurrence or multiple. and Kendell Betts related other ways the Philadelphia Orchestra members would stop a recording. But I heard from a fellow I met at an audition about a recording session in St. Louis, where he was playing extra. Carl Schiebler messed up a passage and didn't want iot to go on the recording. In order to get the orchestra to stop, he yelled "f...@#k" at the top of his lungs. They stopped. Richard Hirsh ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording Techniques, Was: RE: Mason Jones Passes
For original text, see below... The process of recording and editing are actually quite similar to the days of analog. In fact, the processes really haven't changed. Some producers and engineers may do things a little differently (some of which is driven by the technology but most is not), but overall, the processes haven't changed. Whenever I do a recording either as the engineer or producer (or both), I still think of editing as the act of cutting and splicing, just like I were still using a razor and tape. Granted, crossfades between sections are vastly easier with digital technology, but this never factors into my thinking. I've worked with conductors that decide how we're going to run the session and many others who simply say - "you're the Producer/Engineer, you run the session." In most cases, we'll do a single or maybe 2 runs through of the entire work. We'll mark areas that need special attention and then we'll go back and fix those areas. It's not uncommon to get 2 solid, full-length takes and then about 50 takes for each 2-3 minute section of the work. However, let me kindly and respectfully put to bed one rumor - A hack cannot put out a good recording. A good recording is made good by its impeccable playing, balance, phrasing, finesse and professionalism. If you don't have these things to begin with, the recording engineer cannot put them into the recording. While 30 takes may be expended getting one section to sound flawless, a bad orchestra would never get this sounding right. Period. This doesn't change whether you're recording to 2" 24 track tape or digital/hard disk. The physical act of splicing is immaterial to the process as it can be done equally effective in both mediums. Granted a physical cut and splice with razors and tape can take a little longer (and you really only get one shot at it). That being said, it is very common to run a recording session just as you mention it below as well. I'll often do recording sessions where we record until a clam and then back up a couple measures or a phrase or two (to give adequate space for the splice) and then continue. I just did a lengthy recording session on a world premier recording for Howard Shore (of Hollywood fame - Lord of the Rings and several others) where we did a hybrid approach. We did the stop and go approach that you describe and then followed it up with a couple top-to-bottom takes. In all, for a 3.5 minute track, there were about 120 takes. This is not a bad thing and by no means indicates that the singers were anything less than professional. In fact, the very fact that take 120 was a *good* take is a sign of their professionalism and stamina! Most of the time, we would cut for simple things like a slight imbalance or a cut-off not being together. Will the final product be absolutely perfect? Nah... Will it be close? As close as possible. Will it be devoid of emotion and feeling? Not a chance. These professionals put their all into every take and never let down once. No "hack" could do this. They would have given up after take 20. Also, another poster made a comment about the technology of the 50s and 60s being good enough to preserve but not distract or detract (paraphrasing). While some of this is true, some is not. Microphones and some of the front-end technologies of the 50s and 60s indeed were quite good. In fact, some of those pieces of gear are still sought after and used today in professional choral and orchestral settings. However, the recording medium and some of the other electronics were not. One of the biggest problems was the noise and distortion that were imparted by these technologies. In state-of-the-art digital recordings, I'm able to capture a dynamic range of nearly 80dB. This means that the peak of the recording is 80dB above the quietest level. This isn't too far off of the maximum capabilities of the CD itself. However, audio tape of the 50s and 60s often peaked at a signal to noise ratio of only 72dB - meaning that the highest level would only be 72dB above the noise of the medium itself (mild over-simplification). In a quiet, well-constructed hall, using high-resolution digital technologies, I've gotten a peak-to-noise differential of over 100dB. This means that, if the maximum level played back through your stereo system at home hits a peak of 105 dB (a very loud system indeed, but entirely possible with even a modest home listening system), the noise of the room and the equipment itself would only appear as a 5dB signal coming through the speakers. The amplifier you're using to listen through likely puts out more sound than that. With analog tape, you're going to have the inherent hiss associated with it as well as any distortion due to misaligned or magnetized heads. I consider myself a HUGE fan and supporter of analog technologies. However, they do have their limitations. Digital done well is worth a listen. Digital done poorly is annoying. Chee
Re: [Hornlist] Recording technique --somewhat HR
Thanks to all on both lists who responded to my plaintive request for help with your suggestions and caveats. It certainly opened up a number of options and cost/benefit ratios! For starters, I will proceed with the stuff I have on hand on a trial basis to see what I get. Based on the results, I may gradually upgrade along the lines recommended by many of you. Appreciatively, Richard in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording technique --somewhat HR
See e-mail sent to Richard V. West [hornfe...@comcast.net] It's a pdf file on how to accomplish transference to computer. -Original Message- From: horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu [mailto:horn-bounces+bgross=airmail@music.memphis.edu] On Behalf Of Richard V. West Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:45 PM To: h...@yahoogroups.com; The Horn List Subject: [Hornlist] Recording technique --somewhat HR Apologies for this double posting. I recently unearthed a cache of old vinyl and acetate LPs of horn records and performances, some in which I participated. I would like to transfer them to my computer, ultimately putting some of the selections on CDs for my personal use. I vaguely remember that on one of the lists someone described a method of hooking up the phono turntable to the computer through the amplifier (tape out? phono out?) via a line to the microphone input of the computer. I now have a reconditioned turntable, a good stereo amplifier, a line with two RCA plugs at one end and a small stereo computer plug at the other, and have downloaded Audacity onto my computer. If someone could point me in the right direction in hooking all this up or correct me if I'm totally off track (a not uncommon occurrence), I'd be grateful. From the bottom of the learning curve, I am Richard in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording orchestras in multiple takes
Much of what's been said so far is pretty accurate. It's very common for me to splice in sections from dress rehearsals and multiple night's performances. However, I'll also add that sometimes this can be incredibly difficult. Having 800 warm bodies in a concert hall sounds a lot different than having an empty hall. Also, changes in temperature and humidity can have a dramatic effect on the sound as well. Add to that the complexity if someone bumps or moves a mic stand even a much as a few inches. I've spent 4 hours before repairing the horn solo in Beethoven 6 before. It's a challenge but always a fun one. J On Aug 16, 2008, at 8:14 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Ed Glick: I agree with what you say here, but I want to make a comment about one poin= t you make, regarding recordings of live performances. It's my understandin= g that in many "live" concert recordings, sections from recordings from dif= ferent nights (when an orchestra does perform the same program over several= nights) are "spliced" in where necessary. This is practically universal. There can also be splicing in of material from rehearsals (as happened on a recent recording I made because a violist--it's always a violist, isn't it? --took out the power in the control room right before the concert started). Also, sometimes this happens not because of mistakes in the performance, but owing to equipment (or engineer!) failure, again as during a certain recording of the Nelson Mass. (I put the word "splice" in quot= es, because tape - if tape is even used - is no longer spliced physically n= ow, but by a computer.) I'm told that sometimes the orchestra is even calle= d back to record sections specifically for the recording. I'm sure this is true on higher budget recordings than what I do. I'd also like to add, for all those professionals or non- professionals making audition recordings, that I've never had anyone nail a single piece or excerpt in one take. Some *have* played note- perfect first takes, but even then the performers have been dissatisfied with them in some other way. I've been doing this since 1968 (started *real* young ). So, even if you're a major figure, don't be dismayed if it takes several takes to get the piece to your satisfaction. Also, like Jeremy, I've heard some real indiscreet stuff come over the phones, particularly at rehearsals! Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/jeremy%40sublymerecords.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording Competition
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:12 AM > > November 1, 2007 is the deadline ... You're a bit late in notifying us, wouldn't you say? > ... for receipt of entries in > the Co-op Press competition for large ensembles (Band/Wind > Ensemble, Orchestra, Choir, Brass Ensemble, Percussion > Ensemble) for their artistic interpretation of the music of > composer, Sy Brandon as exemplified in a digital recording of > one of the selected competition pieces. A panel of judges > will award prizes of $1000 and $500 to the first and second > place winners respectively. A release of the recording on an > Emeritus Recordings CD is included with the cash prizes. For > more information visit http://cooppress.hostrack.net/ or > write Co-op Press P.O. Box 204 Wrightsville, PA 17368 USA > > > Anita Ranucci Brandon, Administrator > Co-op Press Fund > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Website http://cooppress.hostrack.net > Book, A Composer's Guide To Understanding Music with > Activities for Listeners, Interpreters and Composers > > > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
re: [Hornlist] recording of Franz Strauss Theme and Variations
Mark, John Ericson (horn professor at Arizona State), has a recording of the Theme and Variations, as well as all of the other F. Strauss works for horn and piano. The CD is titled "Les Adieux" and is available from Summit Records. I personally don't have any other recordings of that piece, so there may be some I don't know about. Hope that helps, Anna Can anyone recommend a good recording of Strauss' Theme and Variations? Mark Syslo - Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
My Sony minidisc, a few years old, can adjust the recording level while recording. Of course you have to set it to manual each time you record. My biggest gripe is that I cannot upload the music to the computer except by playing it and recording on the computer. I've gone to recording directly on the laptop. Herb Foster --- Howard Sanner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ... > Now for the important question: Can you adjust the recording level > on your Sony minidisc machine without putting it in pause? Mine, > several years old now, I like quite a lot, with the glaring > exception of that. Which is why I bought a Sharp. > ... __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording
Where did you happen to buy this recorder, and what model # is it. I am looking for something similar to record myself and my trio for a college project. Thanks! -Joni -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Daniel Canarutto Sent: Sun 7/16/2006 3:11 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Recording I bought a Sony minidisk recorder (the sole cheap recording device I found at a local shop) and I'm quite satisfied. I recorded a concert of my wind octet and the sound is nice, the balance between the different instruments excellent. I could even issue a CD, were it not for a few mistakes ;-). Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/j-rice%40cornellcollege.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: NHR: Mercury Living Presence (was: Re: [Hornlist] Recording)
I said: I'm bcc:-ing Mr. & Mrs. Fine's son on this, who can tell me what I managed to get wrong, and I'll forward it to the list and eat my helping of crow. OK, below is what I got from the Fines' son. I'm posting it in the interest of not spreading further urban legends. Quoth young Mr. Fine: > The only thing wrong is that my mother produced ALL the Mercury Living Presence until early 1964, since she was head of Mercury's classical division (made a corporate VP in the mid-50's but was in charge of that, reporting directly to Irving Green, from 1951 onward). Harold Lawrence was always a "music director," meaning his job was as follows -- point out any musical problems my mother may have missed at the session, liason with the conductor or musicians if needed, do the handshaking and back-slapping to keep things non-tense and edit the tapes. Harold took over my mother's job when she retired in 1964 and was there through the last Living Presence recording session in San Antonio in 1967 (which is actually a fantastic record and was a very noble way to end the program). Mercury put out some other stuff in the late 60's and early 70's under the "living presence" banner but it was not nearly the same concept or process and none of the original people were there anymore. So, my mother was VP of classical from the first, but David Hall was recording director early on. He left in 1954 and then my mother started going on all the sessions and running them in the true sense of what a modern producer does. Someone else who's studied Mercury extensively pointed out that Robert "Red" Eberenz (still alive and well!) had a hand in the engineering starting shortly after the first stereo sessions. This same person remembers the M201 as using the 6AU6 tube, which, if true, is A Good Thing: they are about 100 times less expensive than AC701k's! He also says that the earliest stereo recordings had Neumann/Telefunken U47's for the outside mikes with a 201 in the center; later it was a 201 in the middle and KM56's on the outside; still later the 56's were replaced by 201's. And that's more than enough out of me on this topic! Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: NHR: Mercury Living Presence (was: Re: [Hornlist] Recording)
Hi Howard, NHR-- Thanks for the clarifications, and the historical links. I stand corrected. Best regards, Martin Bender On 16-Jul-06, at 11:05 PM, Howard Sanner wrote: A couple of minor points. The Mercury Living Presence recordings were engineered by Robert Fine and produced first by Harold Lawrence and later by Wilma Cozart (later Wilma Cozart Fine). I'm pretty good friends with one of the Fines' sons. He has termed Michael Gray's survey of Mercury in The Absolute Sound (chasing down a citation is left as an exercise for the reader) pretty accurate. He has done extensive studies of his father's work. Martin Bender wrote: Hi Jeremy, I agree with you. Call me a Luddite, but most of the best recordings were done with fewer rather than more microphones, using analogue systems. For example, check out the Mercury "Living Presence" recordings (now re-issued by Philips Classics Productions and available on CD) done in the late 50's and early 60's. These were recorded using only three Telefunken 201crystal (yup, that would be the older style quartz crystal) microphones The 201's were made by Schoeps and, like the "Telefunken" U47 and several others, distributed by Telefunken. They are condenser microphones using the ubiquitous (and expensive--I just needed to replace one) AC701k tube. The earliest mono Living Presence recordings (e.g., Pictures at an Exhibition) used a single U47. Later, in stereo, they used a 201 for the center channel and Neumann KM56's for the outside mikes. When they had acquired enough 201's to have a few spares, they used a trio of 201's because Mrs. Fine thought they sounded best. Pictures at: http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1952.htm to 35mm film running at 18 i.p.s. (inches per second) The 35mm film recordings came later, after they acquired the Belock/Everest equipment. I don't remember the exact date. Most stereo Living Presence recordings were recorded on three track Ampex Model 300's. The Ampex 300 was the ubiquitous studio machine of the time. You can see a picture of a 300-3 (with Sel-Sync unit at the bottom of the overbridge) at: http://recordist.com/ampex/gif/300-3.gif Editing the 35mm film was a nightmare because splices have to align between sprocket holes. Those masters set a benchmark by which all other recordings have been judged. No filtering, equalization or compression of any kind. No argument here, at least among recordings you'll ever get to hear. No digital mumbo-jumbo either; just pure, unadulterated sound. I recommend Tchaikovsky #4, London Symphony Orchestra, Antal Dorati conducting, recorded in June of 1960. (No. 434-373-2) Or, 1812 Overture-- if your stereo can handle it. They used real muskets as well as smoothbore cannons from the United States Military Academy at West Point. Now THAT recording will pin you to your couch! Best regards, Martin Bender I'm bcc:-ing Mr. & Mrs. Fine's son on this, who can tell me what I managed to get wrong, and I'll forward it to the list and eat my helping of crow. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
Klaus Bjerre wrote: We are approaching NHR territory here, but I am most surprised about film being the medium in the said fine recordings. When I went to school from 1954 trough 1966, video was not available. The Danish state had a pedagogical film-service covering especially historical, biological, and geographical themes, mostly in B/W. The medium was 16mm film, if my memory does not fail upon me. The sound was optical in form of a continuous white curved stripe running along the frames. The 35mm film used on some Mercury (and, earlier, Everest) recordings was full-coat *magnetic* film. It wasn't an optical soundtrack, but recorded like magnetic tape. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
NHR: Mercury Living Presence (was: Re: [Hornlist] Recording)
A couple of minor points. The Mercury Living Presence recordings were engineered by Robert Fine and produced first by Harold Lawrence and later by Wilma Cozart (later Wilma Cozart Fine). I'm pretty good friends with one of the Fines' sons. He has termed Michael Gray's survey of Mercury in The Absolute Sound (chasing down a citation is left as an exercise for the reader) pretty accurate. He has done extensive studies of his father's work. Martin Bender wrote: Hi Jeremy, I agree with you. Call me a Luddite, but most of the best recordings were done with fewer rather than more microphones, using analogue systems. For example, check out the Mercury "Living Presence" recordings (now re-issued by Philips Classics Productions and available on CD) done in the late 50's and early 60's. These were recorded using only three Telefunken 201crystal (yup, that would be the older style quartz crystal) microphones The 201's were made by Schoeps and, like the "Telefunken" U47 and several others, distributed by Telefunken. They are condenser microphones using the ubiquitous (and expensive--I just needed to replace one) AC701k tube. The earliest mono Living Presence recordings (e.g., Pictures at an Exhibition) used a single U47. Later, in stereo, they used a 201 for the center channel and Neumann KM56's for the outside mikes. When they had acquired enough 201's to have a few spares, they used a trio of 201's because Mrs. Fine thought they sounded best. Pictures at: http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1952.htm to 35mm film running at 18 i.p.s. (inches per second) The 35mm film recordings came later, after they acquired the Belock/Everest equipment. I don't remember the exact date. Most stereo Living Presence recordings were recorded on three track Ampex Model 300's. The Ampex 300 was the ubiquitous studio machine of the time. You can see a picture of a 300-3 (with Sel-Sync unit at the bottom of the overbridge) at: http://recordist.com/ampex/gif/300-3.gif Editing the 35mm film was a nightmare because splices have to align between sprocket holes. Those masters set a benchmark by which all other recordings have been judged. No filtering, equalization or compression of any kind. No argument here, at least among recordings you'll ever get to hear. No digital mumbo-jumbo either; just pure, unadulterated sound. I recommend Tchaikovsky #4, London Symphony Orchestra, Antal Dorati conducting, recorded in June of 1960. (No. 434-373-2) Or, 1812 Overture-- if your stereo can handle it. They used real muskets as well as smoothbore cannons from the United States Military Academy at West Point. Now THAT recording will pin you to your couch! Best regards, Martin Bender I'm bcc:-ing Mr. & Mrs. Fine's son on this, who can tell me what I managed to get wrong, and I'll forward it to the list and eat my helping of crow. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
We are approaching NHR territory here, but I am most surprised about film being the medium in the said fine recordings. When I went to school from 1954 trough 1966, video was not available. The Danish state had a pedagogical film-service covering especially historical, biological, and geographical themes, mostly in B/W. The medium was 16mm film, if my memory does not fail upon me. The sound was optical in form of a continuous white curved stripe running along the frames. I hated that sound for its shallowness. And I took that as the reason why optical sound had not been used in the recording industry already before WWII, when magnetic tape was not yet available. Back then recordings were made on a wax master. When I taught music at a college from 1970, I had a colleague, who was very much older than me. He had done a lot of dance music recordings before the war (even had been forced to play for the German army during the war including doing army recordings). He told, that whenever one of the 3 minute takes was done, complete silence was mandatory in the studio, while an engineer went over the groove with a magnifying glass to see, if a low frequency had been played so loudly, that the groove had splattered into the next or preceding round of itself. If so the score was revised, so that the double bass was taken up an octave at that point of the music. I wonder slightly, why engineers did not see the options on a wider format film recording, when the wax-method had these inherent hassles. You may know, that I can tell anecdotes without end, so I will slip in one very much opposite to the report from my older colleague: A very popular Danish dance band should record some tunes before the war. The engineer could hear a loud groan in his headset. Retake. Groan at same point of the music. Several retakes with the same problem. Then the band was ordered to play that musical passage over and over again, while the engineer walked around the studio being all ears. The double bass player had a very high note there. The poor man suffered from struma, so when he bent over the bass for that note, a groan was inevitable. When the engineer found the source of the groan, that note was taken down an octave. If one more anecdote may be allowed: The old wax recordings of full orchestras had problems in getting the double bass line. That lead to a very curious fact: The NYPO had a secret member, who did not play in the concerts, but only at the recording sessions. It was a phenomenal tuba player, who doubled the double basses. I have played bowed double bass myself, so when I became a tuba player late in my playing career, I played like a string bass. Not always very popular, as my attack was not considered being brutal enough. But the notes were there right on time, only I could play without transients. Of course a rant from the old days, please be forgiving. Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre --- Martin Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > I agree with you. Call me a Luddite, but most of the best recordings > were done with fewer rather than more microphones, using analogue > systems. > For example, check out the Mercury "Living Presence" recordings (now > re-issued by Philips Classics Productions and available on CD) done > in the late 50's and early 60's. These were recorded using only three > Telefunken 201crystal (yup, that would be the older style quartz > crystal) microphones to 35mm film running at 18 i.p.s. (inches per > second) > Those masters set a benchmark by which all other recordings have been > judged. No filtering, equalization or compression of any kind. No > digital mumbo-jumbo either; just pure, unadulterated sound. > I recommend Tchaikovsky #4, London Symphony Orchestra, Antal Dorati > conducting, recorded in June of 1960. (No. 434-373-2) Or, 1812 > Overture-- if your stereo can handle it. They used real muskets as > well as smoothbore cannons from the United States Military Academy at > West Point. Now THAT recording will pin you to your couch! __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
Hi Jeremy, I agree with you. Call me a Luddite, but most of the best recordings were done with fewer rather than more microphones, using analogue systems. For example, check out the Mercury "Living Presence" recordings (now re-issued by Philips Classics Productions and available on CD) done in the late 50's and early 60's. These were recorded using only three Telefunken 201crystal (yup, that would be the older style quartz crystal) microphones to 35mm film running at 18 i.p.s. (inches per second) Those masters set a benchmark by which all other recordings have been judged. No filtering, equalization or compression of any kind. No digital mumbo-jumbo either; just pure, unadulterated sound. I recommend Tchaikovsky #4, London Symphony Orchestra, Antal Dorati conducting, recorded in June of 1960. (No. 434-373-2) Or, 1812 Overture-- if your stereo can handle it. They used real muskets as well as smoothbore cannons from the United States Military Academy at West Point. Now THAT recording will pin you to your couch! Best regards, Martin Bender On 16-Jul-06, at 2:21 PM, Jeremy Cucco wrote: Bill - I hope you were kidding in your post. Otherwise, I'm afraid it is in fact you who knows little of recording. Rarely are groups ever recorded nowadays with one mic per instrument. This was experimented with a lot in the 60s and 70s, but most of those recordings sound like utter crap. It is quite plausible and possible (and even done quite often) to capture entire orchestras with as few as 2 mics. (after all, you have 2 ears, right???) However, it's more common to use 4 to 8 microphones for a full symphony. For example, if an orchestra were to paly something like Brahms 4 in a good hall, I would use 2 mics as a main pair (probably Schoeps or Microtech Gefell) in an AB pattern, a pair of mics (also Schoeps or Gefell) as flanks roughly 3 meters off dead center. Then, I migh put a couple spot mics (probably of the ribbon variety) in the WW section and if I were recording for surround sound, I would fly a couple hall mics. Rarely are more mics than this needed but if they are, they are carefully chosen and sparingly placed. Some of the best chamber music recordings I've ever heard were done by a gentleman in Sydney who uses a single Royer SF24 microphone (stereo ribbon mic - very pricey). Just my $.02 worth. J. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:06 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? All recordings would sound the same. Who'd by it if it isn't 'special'? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 1:11 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording I bought a Sony minidisk recorder (the sole cheap recording device I found at a local shop) and I'm quite satisfied. I recorded a concert of my wind octet and the sound is nice, the balance between the different instruments excellent. I could even issue a CD, were it not for a few mistakes ;-). Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/embee%40magma.ca ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
Daniel Canarutto wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? [snip] Do you really mean that all recordings would sound the same, were not for the engeneers? I think there is something more to music... I think he's pulling your leg. At least I hope so. In the immortal words of Jerry Bruck, there are a lot of mistakes you can't make if you only use two microphones. More seriously, the aesthetic of classical music recording (make the records sound like the concerts) is exactly diametrically opposed to that of pop/rock recording (make the concerts sound like the records). Most people making their livings as recording engineers have experience only with the latter. I'd be just as much a fish out of water recording a rock or bluegrass band. Now for the important question: Can you adjust the recording level on your Sony minidisc machine without putting it in pause? Mine, several years old now, I like quite a lot, with the glaring exception of that. Which is why I bought a Sharp. Thanks. Howard Sanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? All recordings would sound the same. Who'd by it if it isn't 'special'? Bill, certainly I didn't say that I want to *sell* my CD's. When I'll have recorded a sufficiently good performance, I'll give free copies to friends, maybe I'll put an mp3 version online. I said that sound quality and balance are good, and I do not see much of a need of an intervention by a sound engeneer. Do you really mean that all recordings would sound the same, were not for the engeneers? I think there is something more to music... Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording
Bill - I hope you were kidding in your post. Otherwise, I'm afraid it is in fact you who knows little of recording. Rarely are groups ever recorded nowadays with one mic per instrument. This was experimented with a lot in the 60s and 70s, but most of those recordings sound like utter crap. It is quite plausible and possible (and even done quite often) to capture entire orchestras with as few as 2 mics. (after all, you have 2 ears, right???) However, it's more common to use 4 to 8 microphones for a full symphony. For example, if an orchestra were to paly something like Brahms 4 in a good hall, I would use 2 mics as a main pair (probably Schoeps or Microtech Gefell) in an AB pattern, a pair of mics (also Schoeps or Gefell) as flanks roughly 3 meters off dead center. Then, I migh put a couple spot mics (probably of the ribbon variety) in the WW section and if I were recording for surround sound, I would fly a couple hall mics. Rarely are more mics than this needed but if they are, they are carefully chosen and sparingly placed. Some of the best chamber music recordings I've ever heard were done by a gentleman in Sydney who uses a single Royer SF24 microphone (stereo ribbon mic - very pricey). Just my $.02 worth. J. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:06 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? All recordings would sound the same. Who'd by it if it isn't 'special'? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 1:11 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording I bought a Sony minidisk recorder (the sole cheap recording device I found at a local shop) and I'm quite satisfied. I recorded a concert of my wind octet and the sound is nice, the balance between the different instruments excellent. I could even issue a CD, were it not for a few mistakes ;-). Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording
Very simply, they will sound like in a concert with a mixed sound not like the garbage constructed by the engineers with their separation of instruments. I did a lot early stereo recordings with the system developed then by Mr.Charlier. We had (wooden) reflectors behind the horns e.g. or we played verse the "head mike" (an artificial head with two mikes placed like human ears) looking at the conductor by a big mirror. It worked fantastic & we were fast & earned several Grand Prix. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:06 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? All recordings would sound the same. Who'd by it if it isn't 'special'? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 1:11 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording I bought a Sony minidisk recorder (the sole cheap recording device I found at a local shop) and I'm quite satisfied. I recorded a concert of my wind octet and the sound is nice, the balance between the different instruments excellent. I could even issue a CD, were it not for a few mistakes ;-). Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%4 0aol.com Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording
You just don't understand a thing about sound recording. Without a separate channel for each instrument, how can an engineer possibly make them sound like they're supposed to? All recordings would sound the same. Who'd by it if it isn't 'special'? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 1:11 AM Subject: [Hornlist] Recording I bought a Sony minidisk recorder (the sole cheap recording device I found at a local shop) and I'm quite satisfied. I recorded a concert of my wind octet and the sound is nice, the balance between the different instruments excellent. I could even issue a CD, were it not for a few mistakes ;-). Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
For any and all interested in recording techniques, you should search out "Recording" magazine. Many reviews of specific products, excellent articles that explain and inform about various aspects and techniques of recording, all done in an intelligent and thoughtful style, with a healthy sense of humour about it all. Sweetwater.com is also an excellent website which, in addition to being a supremely good gear seller, has many indepth articles and forums about all aspects of recording. Paxmaha - Do you Yahoo!? With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
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RE: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
Me too! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Warner Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 12:46 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement On 26 Jan 2006, at 5:00 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > The proper way to record, and capture the actual sound, is with a > pair of large diaphragm, high quality mics. Very good Asian > versions of these mics are available for a couple of hundred > dollars each, and the top experts can't discern the difference from > the originals, that are several thousand dollars. Would you please point me towards those mics? TIA Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/aleksozolins%40hotmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
On 26 Jan 2006, at 5:00 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The proper way to record, and capture the actual sound, is with a pair of large diaphragm, high quality mics. Very good Asian versions of these mics are available for a couple of hundred dollars each, and the top experts can't discern the difference from the originals, that are several thousand dollars. Would you please point me towards those mics? TIA Tom ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
I suspect most sound engineers are frustrated critics. Rarely do I meet one who knows anything of value, but they sure are opinionated and generally very lazy. The proper way to record, and capture the actual sound, is with a pair of large diaphragm, high quality mics. Very good Asian versions of these mics are available for a couple of hundred dollars each, and the top experts can't discern the difference from the originals, that are several thousand dollars. Unfortunately, engineers are captivated by 16 and 32 channel boards, and like to shove a cheap mic in front of anything they personally like to hear. Later, they can 'enhance' each individual track, then mix it to a caricature of the original. The argument is that the listener is so accustomed to movie sound track mixing, they would be unsatisfied with a realistic sound, and only the expertise of the engineer can make the recording palatable. -Original Message- From: Trey Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:59:07 + Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement I would like to piggyback on Michael's microphone questions with something that has been bugging me for some time. In my job, there is a certain fascination with "sound reinforcement," not just with jazz or rock groups, but with wind ensembles, too. Even in indoor venues there seems to be this need to electronically reinforce the group. Part of this stems from the use of electronic instruments (keyboard, sometimes guitars) with the wind ensemble, part of it from the use of vocalists, and some of it, I fear, is "because we own the equipment," though I hope this isn't always the case. I've worked with three different sound guys, and all three have always put the microphones very close to the bells of the horn section. I can understand why they might do this, but is there any better place for microphones in this situation? When an audience hears a hornist or horn section in a totally acoustic setting (which I much prefer), they aren't hearing the sound as it comes directly out of the bell, as we horn players are all aware. But when a mic is placed right at the bell of a player, the audience is getting a more "raw" sound, one that I find a lot less pleasant. Does anyone on the list have experience with mic placement in this situation, or suggestions. I've had a hard time making my point on this one, and would appreciate any advice that anyone might give. Thanks, Trey From: Michael Ozment <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:47:15 -0500 Lately, I have been trying to record myself more and more. I want to move beyond just recording my practice sessions with a mini disc and a small microphone. I have asked dozens of "recording" people about mics and various recording equipment, but it just occurred to me that I should be asking HORNISTS. What kind of mic do you use when recording yourself? Or what kind of mics have been used to record you in studio situations? Specific brands and models would be more helpful than just "dynamic" or "condenser" Also, what is the optimum mic placement for recording a solo horn? Thanks for any help, Michael Ozment ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at >http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/treyinitalia%40hotmail.co m _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
Trey: At the risk of pulling the thread further off-subject, finally a question I may be qualified to answer. Like all of the really interesting ones, it's complicated. My day job is as a reinforcement engineer. Now, usually we have plenty of things to do without looking for things to amplify, and I agree that an indoor wind ensemble is NOT the first thing that comes to mind, unless you consider the Astrodome "indoors". Section micing of a wind ensemble/concert band/orchestra is not for the faint of heart, but there are those large outdoor events or the occasional indoor requirements like you mentioned. One serious technical issue in the mic setup is called leakage; unwanted pickup of nearby instruments. We have to put the mics where the sound from the target instrument or section predominates and other sounds are minimized. Now, closer micing of any instrument picks up a sound that is unlike what the audience listener is accustomed to, and horns are simply an extreme example of this. *IF* you need more horn sound (not always the case) you have to go where the horn sound is - behind the horns. This uncharacteristic sound can be corrected with careful processing for the most part, but what I CAN'T do is remove all of the trumpet or percussion leakage caused by a less obnoxious mic placement. Notice, we are talking reinforcement here, not recording, and pretty aggressive reinforcement at that. Often we can get a lot of advantage from simpler "area" micing when the boss hasn't ordered us to blow the walls off the hall. In this case we RELY on a form of leakage to help blend and condition the sound. So, back to practical matters, while it is possible to get a decent horn sound from this situation, it's not necessarily easy, and I usually consider it a last resort. Let's assume your "sound guys" are competent engineers. They may have limited access to the ensemble rehearsals and need maximum flexibility to make adjustments on the fly (ideally, we shouldn't be correcting section imbalances, but that's another issue). They may simply be unaware of the sound you are trying to achieve, and could use a music director or assistant conductor to point out "Hey, that's not what the horns should sound like". Just like playing the horn, there's no substitute for having some musical experience at the knobs. Now, about recording . . . . . . Hope that helps. I gotta go practice. Jake Ewalt Amateur Horn Player, Professional Sound Guy At 09:59 AM 1/25/2006, you wrote: I would like to piggyback on Michael's microphone questions with something that has been bugging me for some time. In my job, there is a certain fascination with "sound reinforcement," not just with jazz or rock groups, but with wind ensembles, too. Even in indoor venues there seems to be this need to electronically reinforce the group. Part of this stems from the use of electronic instruments (keyboard, sometimes guitars) with the wind ensemble, part of it from the use of vocalists, and some of it, I fear, is "because we own the equipment," though I hope this isn't always the case. I've worked with three different sound guys, and all three have always put the microphones very close to the bells of the horn section. I can understand why they might do this, but is there any better place for microphones in this situation? When an audience hears a hornist or horn section in a totally acoustic setting (which I much prefer), they aren't hearing the sound as it comes directly out of the bell, as we horn players are all aware. But when a mic is placed right at the bell of a player, the audience is getting a more "raw" sound, one that I find a lot less pleasant. Does anyone on the list have experience with mic placement in this situation, or suggestions. I've had a hard time making my point on this one, and would appreciate any advice that anyone might give. Thanks, Trey ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement
I would like to piggyback on Michael's microphone questions with something that has been bugging me for some time. In my job, there is a certain fascination with "sound reinforcement," not just with jazz or rock groups, but with wind ensembles, too. Even in indoor venues there seems to be this need to electronically reinforce the group. Part of this stems from the use of electronic instruments (keyboard, sometimes guitars) with the wind ensemble, part of it from the use of vocalists, and some of it, I fear, is "because we own the equipment," though I hope this isn't always the case. I've worked with three different sound guys, and all three have always put the microphones very close to the bells of the horn section. I can understand why they might do this, but is there any better place for microphones in this situation? When an audience hears a hornist or horn section in a totally acoustic setting (which I much prefer), they aren't hearing the sound as it comes directly out of the bell, as we horn players are all aware. But when a mic is placed right at the bell of a player, the audience is getting a more "raw" sound, one that I find a lot less pleasant. Does anyone on the list have experience with mic placement in this situation, or suggestions. I've had a hard time making my point on this one, and would appreciate any advice that anyone might give. Thanks, Trey From: Michael Ozment <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: The Horn List To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Recording and Mic Placement Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:47:15 -0500 Lately, I have been trying to record myself more and more. I want to move beyond just recording my practice sessions with a mini disc and a small microphone. I have asked dozens of "recording" people about mics and various recording equipment, but it just occurred to me that I should be asking HORNISTS. What kind of mic do you use when recording yourself? Or what kind of mics have been used to record you in studio situations? Specific brands and models would be more helpful than just "dynamic" or "condenser" Also, what is the optimum mic placement for recording a solo horn? Thanks for any help, Michael Ozment ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/treyinitalia%40hotmail.com _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
