RE: [Hornlist] harmonic series
The first mistake is it "thinking in fingerings". One has to know the harmonic series at first & rethink it while changing the tonality (= pressing a certain valve). Paul Mansur said it well, the written a1 (written for F-Horn in the third space from top) is 5th tone of the harmonic series & it is a chronic flat note, no matter using the F-horn (here it is the e1 = on the lowest line) or the Bb-horn (here it is the a1 in question). Pressing down a valve does not consequently lower the pitch for a half-step. This works only, if valve no.2 is pressed down. Valve no.1 lowers the pitch for a full step, while valve no.3 lowers for 1 1/2 steps. Why should a allready low harmonic sound in pitch, when lowered by a valve ? This is irrational. It will result in another flat pitch. But if valves are used in combination of two or worse in the combination of all three, the pitch will result in sharpness, as the added second valve or even third valve represents only the length fraction of the main tube and not of the main tube plus the first valve length added. But there is a good solution to the problem: (as said by Paul Mansur) using the combination of 1+2 valves for the written a1 when playing the F- or the Bb-sides, also for the d1 & d2 instead of the usual 3rd valve alone (Bb-horn). If the d might result quite sharp, return to the use of 3rd valve (Bb-horn), but use both ways depending on how to ease fingerings in tricky passages. There is another way to get the written g1 (2nd line from bottom) well in tune: use the open F-harmonic, no matter if you play on the double or on the Bb-horn with F-(harmonic)extension. 1+3 on the Bb-horn is not very good when playing fast passages. But the thumb valve is fast enough, if the horn stands in F when the thumb valve is not depressed. Heather, there is one thing the hornplayers HAVE to KNOW: the harmonic series & the use of ALL valves including the THUMB VALVE, how it effects the intonation. In this particular case, the use of the thumb valve, switching the horn to F-tonality (or keeping it at F-tonality, depending on the setting of this valve), would enable the player to use the 6th tone of the harmonic series, the written g, which is in tune. One question: why is it, that so many players are lacking fundamental knowledge of their instrumental technique, while they are of perfect knowledge in their "electronic environment" , perhaps Any answer ? Also the handicap question: Why would a mother desire that her handicapped daughter or son should study (or better learn) an instrument where his or her handicap will be a real obstacle with tons of frustration, just because mother likes the sound of the horn ? What a waste of energy, while the daughter or son could invest their learning (and life) energy better in other fields including music, where it weren´t any waste and where they could become very successful without the frustration & the obstacles. Desire must respect reality not reality be adapted to desire. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon, Heather Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 10:41 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] harmonic series I'm taking a brass methods class, and we discuss the harmonic series as it applies to each brass instrument. Our horn players (reformed vocalists ^_^) were having some trouble with fingerings, so we went over the harmonic series on the horn when we ran into an interesting phenomenon. I'm a horn player and so is the instructor, but niether of us knew the answer to this question. On the Bb side of the horn, we run into an out of tune harmonic on the A, so we go to the harmonic above to find a fingering that's in tune. But we still use the A to find the fingering for the G below that. If pressing down a valve (in the correct order) only lowers the pitch by a half-step, why is the G generally in tune when the A is not? I hope that question makes sense. Heather "Red" Gordon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] harmonic series
Hi, RED! The open A is a fifth harmonic and is naturally flat; and so is the G also a fifth harmonic with 1st valve on the Bb horn. I play a Bb single horn quite a bit and I lip the G up as necessary. The A with 1-2 is a sixth harmonic and well in tune. At times I use the open A when I'm playing a rapid passage or an arpeggio with A in it in order to be flexible with fingering and to facilitate speed. In the tempered scale it is about 14 cents flat, but it is in very good tune with the F below in a chord of the natural or Pythagorean scale. In a great horn section, whoever plays the third in a major chord will lower it be in this natural scale. I suggest you read the Temperament article in the "Norton Grove Concise Encyclopedia of Music." CORdially, Mansur's Answers On Wednesday, October 12, 2005, at 05:40 PM, Gordon, Heather wrote: I'm taking a brass methods class, and we discuss the harmonic series as it applies to each brass instrument. Our horn players (reformed vocalists ^_^) were having some trouble with fingerings, so we went over the harmonic series on the horn when we ran into an interesting phenomenon. I'm a horn player and so is the instructor, but niether of us knew the answer to this question. On the Bb side of the horn, we run into an out of tune harmonic on the A, so we go to the harmonic above to find a fingering that's in tune. But we still use the A to find the fingering for the G below that. If pressing down a valve (in the correct order) only lowers the pitch by a half-step, why is the G generally in tune when the A is not? I hope that question makes > sense. Heather "Red" Gordon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] harmonic series
On Oct 12, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Baucom.Fred wrote: This must be a individual thing...when I used to play a Paxman descant, 1 & 3 was an improvement (it was less flat) compared to first valve only. Sorry, I should have been clearer! You're absolutely right that 1-3 is (much) higher than 1. It's usually sharp on most horns I've played, as well as being a bit stuffy, plus it's an awkward fingering. Dan ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] harmonic series
This must be a individual thing...when I used to play a Paxman descant, 1 & 3 was an improvement (it was less flat) compared to first valve only. Fred -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Phillips Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 2:50 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] harmonic series On Oct 12, 2005, at 4:40 PM, Gordon, Heather wrote: > I'm taking a brass methods class, and we discuss the harmonic > series as it applies to each brass instrument. Our horn players > (reformed vocalists ^_^) were having some trouble with fingerings, > so we went over the harmonic series on the horn when we ran into an > interesting phenomenon. I'm a horn player and so is the > instructor, but niether of us knew the answer to this question. On > the Bb side of the horn, we run into an out of tune harmonic on the > A, so we go to the harmonic above to find a fingering that's in > tune. But we still use the A to find the fingering for the G below > that. If pressing down a valve (in the correct order) only lowers > the pitch by a half-step, why is the G generally in tune when the A > is not? I hope that question makes sense. If you're asking why the second line g is in tune when played 1st valve Bb horn, I'd say: listen more carefully ;-) It's also flat; the reason that's the fingering normally used on the Bb horn is that the alternative - 1-3 - is worse. Dan Dan Phillips Professor of Horn, University of Memphis webmaster: http://music.memphis.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/fred.baucom%40ftb.ca.gov ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] harmonic series
On Oct 12, 2005, at 4:40 PM, Gordon, Heather wrote: I'm taking a brass methods class, and we discuss the harmonic series as it applies to each brass instrument. Our horn players (reformed vocalists ^_^) were having some trouble with fingerings, so we went over the harmonic series on the horn when we ran into an interesting phenomenon. I'm a horn player and so is the instructor, but niether of us knew the answer to this question. On the Bb side of the horn, we run into an out of tune harmonic on the A, so we go to the harmonic above to find a fingering that's in tune. But we still use the A to find the fingering for the G below that. If pressing down a valve (in the correct order) only lowers the pitch by a half-step, why is the G generally in tune when the A is not? I hope that question makes sense. If you're asking why the second line g is in tune when played 1st valve Bb horn, I'd say: listen more carefully ;-) It's also flat; the reason that's the fingering normally used on the Bb horn is that the alternative - 1-3 - is worse. Dan Dan Phillips Professor of Horn, University of Memphis webmaster: http://music.memphis.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] harmonic series
If its the G and the A I'm thinking about then it's 5th partial and would naturally be out of tune and flat. Technically the G and the A are both flat on 5th partial - if the G is the 2nd line G in the treble? If its the octave above the G is 9th (open fingerings) and the A is 10th. The A would be somewhat flat with the G somewhat closer to being in tune. I'm not entirely sure what your question was but I hope that helps some? -William In a message dated 10/12/2005 4:41:27 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm taking a brass methods class, and we discuss the harmonic series as it applies to each brass instrument. Our horn players (reformed vocalists ^_^) were having some trouble with fingerings, so we went over the harmonic series on the horn when we ran into an interesting phenomenon. I'm a horn player and so is the instructor, but niether of us knew the answer to this question. On the Bb side of the horn, we run into an out of tune harmonic on the A, so we go to the harmonic above to find a fingering that's in tune. But we still use the A to find the fingering for the G below that. If pressing down a valve (in the correct order) only lowers the pitch by a half-step, why is the G generally in tune when the A is not? I hope that question makes sense. Heather "Red" Gordon ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
