RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
There's a couple things wrong with the below statements. But the printed music is not public domain as long as the publishing company exists This is simply not the case. It's only the case if the copyright is still valid. If you're unsure, you can call the publisher or check your country's laws on the length of a copyright. (Prior to the 70s, copyrights had a relatively short life span. Things have changed recently though). There are also the rights of the editors, which must be respected Editors have rights only as long as publishers have rights - it's the same length of term again as the previously mentioned copyright. Of course, respect and the law mean two different things. If the editor is still alive and you wish to respect him/her, you may always feel free to compensate them personally. However, the business of music nowadays means that, the likelihood is that the editor has probably changed a dynamic marking or an articulation somewhere in the piece recently and has therefore re-updated his edition and his copyright. However, most older editions are in the public domain - again, if you're not sure, call the publisher and ask. They will tell you. The original scores may be accessible free of charge, but not parts as they are not written by the composer but by the publishers or on order for the publisher who still owns the publisher rights. Again, this is dependent upon the length of the copyright. If you have an orchestral part from Boosey and Hawkes that was last published in 1948 and they haven't made any changes since then, you may feel free to copy, disseminate or do any other thing you'd like with that part. You as the purchaser now have the rights to that piece. (This, however, is a poor example as BH very much play the musical system and would have republished this piece 10 times since then to ensure a lasting copyright.) If copyrights existed as long as publishers were still in existence, there would be a LOT fewer recordings on the market and the recording of the long call on your website would be subject to fines and perhaps even jail time. (Breitkopf, right?) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:20 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9 And the publishers, who published this kind of music ? They invested a lot to get it engraved. You are right, most of these pieces are now public domain, but just the original you do not have to pay royalties to the composers. But the printed music is not public domain as long as the publishing company exists. This makes a big difference. There are also the rights of the editors, whih must be respected. If you get access to the originals from the libraries if you edit them (make clear text), you would allow free public circulation ? Would you do this as a public service. I doubt. The original scores may be accessible free of charge, but not parts as they are not written by the composer but by the publishers or on order for the publisher who still owns the publisher rights. And why not buying these very low priced Dover scores get the parts written out by yourself. We did that in the past. It is not a violation of any rights if you do this for study purpose, but you have a great benefit, getting the things into your brain without any extra effort just by writing them out. === Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.5/988 - Release Date: 9/4/2007 9:14 AM ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
Jeremy, you are absolutely wrong regarding Long Call. First it is not Breitkopf but SCHOTT, secondly QUOTING is tolerated up to 3 or 5 minutes even the performer rights. Editors, as me, are not just changing dynamics or expression marks, they make a real new piece out of many pieces as to make them performable, as there are no dynamics or expression marks or phrasings in the originals. They also eliminate unpractical repeated phrases, they eliminate writing errors, the arrange a score from parts, they restore nearly everything. This rights are harmed if you just copy things. Well, why are these idiots working for you at all ? Why do these editors all their work ? To be betrayed afterwards because you steal their intellectual property ? It is very easy to jump on to the rolling wagon get a free ride. It seems to me that too many favour this way. What would you do, if nobody would have arranged that vast universe of classical romantical music ? Well, you would probably go to a library search write out correct or arrange. Would you allow others to benefit from your hard work free of charge ? Surely not !!! Today we have the great chances to access most of the classical concert literature at the bigger libraries. But why do we want to get everything free ? Yes, state funded libraries are public. They do not charge anything for the use of their contents, but they charge for printings so they should do the same when you access them over internet. State funds are not enough to keep things running. Try the same at private libraries. You will get big eyes about what they charge, and they have to charge as to make some income. Arrangers editors do their work to make income. You are very curious about the rights of other people, but nobody might hurt your rights. Very curious but typical indeed. And finally, your American Law is not the European Law, your law is not the universe´s law. You never respected our European law, but you cry very loudly if Europe does not respect your law. This is not an accusation but an observation, sorry. I do not intend to value or to insult. It is just a fact. And this is not music related only. To prolong the copyright, a publishing house does not need to prepare a new edition, just putting a sticker on. And did registering for copyright (fee included) have any real effect on copying ? No, but it had an effect on the income of the copyright office in D.C. Today people are worse. They order music from a mail order company, copy it return it to the sender. Teachers buy one copy, multiply it (even the CD coming with the music) sell it to their students. This is unlawful absolutely but common. We have yearly youth competitions on regional but also federal level. Rules say that only original prints are allowed in the performances. So it happen, that two days before the finals the phone rings teachers or students ask desperately for original prints, which nobody might have in stock, what these customers will not understand then. But which seller is stupid enough to stock things which circulate en masse as copies. You should know, the mail order shops or other music shops have to pay the stock they receive from publishers. Realize how much a well sorted shop has to invest into his stock . = -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeremy Cucco Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 2:39 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9 There's a couple things wrong with the below statements. But the printed music is not public domain as long as the publishing company exists This is simply not the case. It's only the case if the copyright is still valid. If you're unsure, you can call the publisher or check your country's laws on the length of a copyright. (Prior to the 70s, copyrights had a relatively short life span. Things have changed recently though). There are also the rights of the editors, which must be respected Editors have rights only as long as publishers have rights - it's the same length of term again as the previously mentioned copyright. Of course, respect and the law mean two different things. If the editor is still alive and you wish to respect him/her, you may always feel free to compensate them personally. However, the business of music nowadays means that, the likelihood is that the editor has probably changed a dynamic marking or an articulation somewhere in the piece recently and has therefore re-updated his edition and his copyright. However, most older editions are in the public domain - again, if you're not sure, call the publisher and ask. They will tell you. The original scores may be accessible free of charge, but not parts as they are not written by the composer but by the publishers or on order for the publisher who still owns the publisher
RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
Hans - I don't mean to get into the proverbial peeing contest with you as I respect you. However, you make a lot of assumptions which are simply false. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but I'm getting mine from the numerous (7 to be exact) books on US and International Copyright laws. Bear in mind, I handle copyrights every single day of my life working in the recording world and I have a team of attorneys that help me. There is absolutely no provision in US or International copyright laws which allows for 3 or 5 minutes of quoting. In fact, the courts in either locality would never resort to such vague language as 3 or 5 minutes. The fact is NO quoting is allowed without the payment of royalties to whom the rights belong. Period. In your case, you're fine as the thematic material to the Long Call is long since in the public domain. However, your performing this on your website is no different (in the eyes of the law) as someone photocopying a part on which the copyright expired 10 years ago. It's all a matter of reproducing a work which is available to the public. As for the blatant political statements, I will not touch them. However, I would suggest that it's this kind of attitude which serves to separate us as humans. As for copying books and CDs for the distribution to students, you're right. This is illegal and deplorable! However, this is not what's being discussed at the moment. I can't tell you whether Mahler 9 is in the public domain or not (and unless you know the publisher or have the part directly in front of you that has a copyright post 1978, then you don't either). However, if it is public domain, the original poster has every right to copy it, share it, arrange it, perform it, record it or whatever else they'd like to do with it. The spirit of the copyright law is simple - creators of intellectual property have the right to be compensated and/or recognized for their efforts. However, the reason there has been a termination of rights was simply because it has been determined that it is only reasonable to expect such for a given time (which is only recently been made for the life of the content creator - not the publisher.) I understand your outrage for blatant abuse of owners' rights, however, I think your anger or aggression is sorely misplaced and serves no purpose other than to demean the original poster or to elevate yourself. In either case, it's not necessary. It's certainly not necessary to insult the original poster by suggesting that they want everything for free and then launching off into a lengthy monologue about the ills of modern society. I've said my piece. Cheers - Jeremy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of hans Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:29 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9 Jeremy, you are absolutely wrong regarding Long Call. First it is not Breitkopf but SCHOTT, secondly QUOTING is tolerated up to 3 or 5 minutes even the performer rights. Editors, as me, are not just changing dynamics or expression marks, they make a real new piece out of many pieces as to make them performable, as there are no dynamics or expression marks or phrasings in the originals. They also eliminate unpractical repeated phrases, they eliminate writing errors, the arrange a score from parts, they restore nearly everything. This rights are harmed if you just copy things. Well, why are these idiots working for you at all ? Why do these editors all their work ? To be betrayed afterwards because you steal their intellectual property ? It is very easy to jump on to the rolling wagon get a free ride. It seems to me that too many favour this way. What would you do, if nobody would have arranged that vast universe of classical romantical music ? Well, you would probably go to a library search write out correct or arrange. Would you allow others to benefit from your hard work free of charge ? Surely not !!! Today we have the great chances to access most of the classical concert literature at the bigger libraries. But why do we want to get everything free ? Yes, state funded libraries are public. They do not charge anything for the use of their contents, but they charge for printings so they should do the same when you access them over internet. State funds are not enough to keep things running. Try the same at private libraries. You will get big eyes about what they charge, and they have to charge as to make some income. Arrangers editors do their work to make income. You are very curious about the rights of other people, but nobody might hurt your rights. Very curious but typical indeed. And finally, your American Law is not the European Law, your law is not the universe´s law. You never respected our European law, but you cry very loudly if Europe does not respect your law. This is not an accusation but an observation, sorry. I do not intend to value
RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
But, Jeremy, that´s the situation. There is no insult. I have to do with young musicians a lot. And they do copying and copying from copies which are copies from copies eztc. You go after the American Law which is binding you, we go after the European Law which is binding us. Punctum ! Wagner is not protected by copyright it was not edited in no ways, so no editor rights. Well, I agree, there are no vague terms as 3 or 5 minutes. I saiud that, because I do not have the law book infront of me. But it was meant quoting an artistic performance. It is allowed here in Germany, to quote a recording of any artists if it does not exceed a certain duration which is 3 or 5 minutes. We had to tolerate these quotings when they did a TV report about a coming concert or an actual event and received no money for that, because it was within the limit. I would not place any quoting of a contemporanean piece or a piece by a composer who died not longer ago than 70 years. But I quoted one movement of the Britten Serenade from my recording, but have paid the royalties for that (!). It is much better it honors you, that you do not touch blatant political statements - you allready did value it by this sentence, but that is a typical problem. As long as everybody is following your line, he or she is a good friend, but as immideately as one does not agree with you sharing your view of things, he or she becomes an insultant or enemy if not outlawed. This is your problem. And this is a problem why you are not welcome in so many countries (has nothing to do with you personally). I had no problems with US citizens never (except one Ebay gangster who is in jail now) know them as very friendly often naive or even shy human beings, but as it goes for laws ... Respecting intellectual property ... If it goes about THEIR intellectual property, hell, one has to care very much, but others A different matter of rather minor or no importance ... Your problem. And in Music: we here in Europe, we produced the Classic, Romantic NeoRomantic, you copied it. Now, today, it is opposite, you produced the best film music, the best pop music, and Europe copies. Means, we are doing the same ? We have adopted a lot from you, perhaps too much Will not go in details as it reaches from culture to obesity. Let us close this discussion, as it might be fruitless. == ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
I hesitate to respond, but here goes. There is no world wide problem and us younger generation people don't want everything for free (and we all don't waste our money on fancy clothes and parties like you imply). However I do value accessibility. Most classical music pieces that people play are in the public domain and are already FREE. I believe that these scores should be as accessible as possible to everybody. The best way to do that these days is to scan them in and put them up online for others to view. Many libraries (i.e. libraries at eastman, juliard, indiana university, etc.) are doing exactly this. Just because this activity was more difficult in the past doesn't mean we should make it just as difficult today. I seriously hope that one day the parts for Mahler 9 will become available for FREE, which would be great. -Jay There is a world wide problem now: you want everything for FREE, which is not good. If one is ready to play Mahler 9, one can invest should invest something to build up ones own library, not from copies, but from real things. That´s we did we had less access less funds. But we did it. We simply did spend less on fancy clothings, parties ... That´s the way. Johnatan said it in the right way: buy the CD for 20.- $ you get a bunch of parts. Well, you dont need all of them at the moment, but might be in the future. How can one build up knowledge, if one just buys the actual necessary One has to know more than the phrases given in a list for an audition. It does not help in the long term. If you know just the solo, what to do with the other spots or the whole symphony or opera ? If you are prepared at best technically, good, if you are a well prepared sight reader, better, if you know how to play the whole pieces from listening too, best. You dont need to have played everything to acquire this skills, but you need to get a feeling what can be with Wagner or Strauss or Brahms or Beethoven or Strawinsky or Mahler ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
And the publishers, who published this kind of music ? They invested a lot to get it engraved. You are right, most of these pieces are now public domain, but just the original you do not have to pay royalties to the composers. But the printed music is not public domain as long as the publishing company exists. This makes a big difference. There are also the rights of the editors, whih must be respected. If you get access to the originals from the libraries if you edit them (make clear text), you would allow free public circulation ? Would you do this as a public service. I doubt. The original scores may be accessible free of charge, but not parts as they are not written by the composer but by the publishers or on order for the publisher who still owns the publisher rights. And why not buying these very low priced Dover scores get the parts written out by yourself. We did that in the past. It is not a violation of any rights if you do this for study purpose, but you have a great benefit, getting the things into your brain without any extra effort just by writing them out. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Anderson Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:02 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9 I hesitate to respond, but here goes. There is no world wide problem and us younger generation people don't want everything for free (and we all don't waste our money on fancy clothes and parties like you imply). However I do value accessibility. Most classical music pieces that people play are in the public domain and are already FREE. I believe that these scores should be as accessible as possible to everybody. The best way to do that these days is to scan them in and put them up online for others to view. Many libraries (i.e. libraries at eastman, juliard, indiana university, etc.) are doing exactly this. Just because this activity was more difficult in the past doesn't mean we should make it just as difficult today. I seriously hope that one day the parts for Mahler 9 will become available for FREE, which would be great. -Jay There is a world wide problem now: you want everything for FREE, which is not good. If one is ready to play Mahler 9, one can invest should invest something to build up ones own library, not from copies, but from real things. That´s we did we had less access less funds. But we did it. We simply did spend less on fancy clothings, parties ... That´s the way. Johnatan said it in the right way: buy the CD for 20.- $ you get a bunch of parts. Well, you dont need all of them at the moment, but might be in the future. How can one build up knowledge, if one just buys the actual necessary One has to know more than the phrases given in a list for an audition. It does not help in the long term. If you know just the solo, what to do with the other spots or the whole symphony or opera ? If you are prepared at best technically, good, if you are a well prepared sight reader, better, if you know how to play the whole pieces from listening too, best. You dont need to have played everything to acquire this skills, but you need to get a feeling what can be with Wagner or Strauss or Brahms or Beethoven or Strawinsky or Mahler ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
You mean for free? Probably not, but you can buy vol 2 of the Orchestral Musician's CD-Rom Library (http://www.orchmusiclibrary.com/) for about $20, and that includes all the horn parts for all the Mahler symphonies as well as various other of Mahler's orchestral works. It also includes horn parts for all Bruckner's symphonies, plus orchestral works by Bizet, Bruch, Busoni, Dubussy, Faure, Grieg, Reger Saint-Saens. Worth $20 I think! :-) Regards Jonathan West ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
I know imslp.org doesn't have Mahler 9 yet, but it is a long term goal to eventually add scans of public domain parts. If any of you have access to any parts they would be a great addition. I believe the only orchestral parts currently on IMSLP are for Rachmaninov's Symphony No.2. For now your best bet is the orchestra musician's library. -Jay On 9/11/07, justin ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering if there is a site online that has Mahler 9 parts? - Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horndude77%40gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
There is a world wide problem now: you want everything for FREE, which is not good. If one is ready to play Mahler 9, one can invest should invest something to build up ones own library, not from copies, but from real things. That´s we did we had less access less funds. But we did it. We simply did spend less on fancy clothings, parties ... That´s the way. Johnatan said it in the right way: buy the CD for 20.- $ you get a bunch of parts. Well, you dont need all of them at the moment, but might be in the future. How can one build up knowledge, if one just buys the actual necessary One has to know more than the phrases given in a list for an audition. It does not help in the long term. If you know just the solo, what to do with the other spots or the whole symphony or opera ? If you are prepared at best technically, good, if you are a well prepared sight reader, better, if you know how to play the whole pieces from listening too, best. You dont need to have played everything to acquire this skills, but you need to get a feeling what can be with Wagner or Strauss or Brahms or Beethoven or Strawinsky or Mahler === On 9/11/07, justin ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering if there is a site online that has Mahler 9 parts? - Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/horndude77%40 gmail.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
The full score is available inexpensively from Dover. For something like this there is good reason to own, read, and practice from the full score. While page turns may occasionally be bothersome, you will understand how parts double and what else is happening when you play. http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-9-Full-Score/dp/0486274926 Beware that most Mahler symphonies exist in multiple authentic versions (because he revised continually) so always learn and play from the issued orchestral parts. But a full score will tell you things that cannot be grasped from individual orchestral parts, or even a short score of the horn section. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone tell me without too much work what the four trills that begin 16 before marker 41 in third movement - which are whole step and which half step? The first trill (written E) goes to F# (whole step); nest, the D goes to E (whole step). The grace notes in bars 60 and 61 give you a clue about what is needed here. The C# trill goes up to D; The C trill goes up a half-step to D-flat (though I have heard it done as a whole step). I believe that the actual pitches are not as important as the sound effect in this case. The section should agree on what they plan to do, however! David Lamb in Seattle ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Mahler 9 excerpt.
Most likely the exposed solo (with woodwinds), measure 381 to 391. I worked this up for an audition in the early '90s Dan On Dec 7, 2006, at 10:07 PM, Mathew James wrote: Hi all. I am preparing a mock audition and one exceprt is Mahler 9, a first honr one. I couldnt find it in any excpert books I had, or my library had, so I went to the score the old fashion way...Now I have a question, what are the standard ones? As in the most likley to be asked for, and help directing me to the most important ones to learn. I cant ask my treacher as they are putting on the mock, and are not supposed to help at all. We are supposed to use our resources :D Thanks kindly. -- Mathew James ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/ options/horn/horn34%40mcleodusa.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
