Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
Dan Phillips schreef: On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Michiel van der Linden wrote: I'm always fighting this myth on Tubenet, so I'll continue my crusade here. ;) Tuba parts are NOT always concert pitch. Here in N.W. Europe *transposing* bass clef tuba parts are the norm, at least in band music and most amateur level literature. Interesting! What key(s) are they in? Bb? Eb? F? The British brass band custom of writing them in treble clef Eb or Bb is to allow players to switch among any valve brass without learning new clefs or fingerings. Are BBb tubas the norm in bands there? Dan ___ Most arrangements have seperate BBb and Eb parts. The BBb's tend to stay in the basement, and the Eb's do the more virtuoso stuff. Most bands won't be happy unless they have both kinds since the parts can be quite different. The Bb parts are mostly notated as transposing bass clef, sounding a ninth lower, although treble clef occurs as well sometimes. The transposed bass clef makes sort of sense because that way most of the part stays on the staff, and in large bands which have the luxury of double basses, these play from the same part, transposing or with their strings tuned down a major 2nd. The Eb parts are mostly treble clef I think, but I'll have a look next time we rehearse to make sure ;) Michiel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Michiel van der Linden wrote: I'm always fighting this myth on Tubenet, so I'll continue my crusade here. ;) Tuba parts are NOT always concert pitch. Here in N.W. Europe *transposing* bass clef tuba parts are the norm, at least in band music and most amateur level literature. Interesting! What key(s) are they in? Bb? Eb? F? The British brass band custom of writing them in treble clef Eb or Bb is to allow players to switch among any valve brass without learning new clefs or fingerings. Are BBb tubas the norm in bands there? Dan ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
Paul Mansur schreef: In brief, only the treble clef is used for transposed parts. Bass clef instruments, including Eb tubas, CC tubas, and BBb tubas all read at actual pitch, and always have to the best of my knowledge of orchestration. Transposed tuba parts were popular when the town band was in its hey day. Played and fingered just like a cornet in Bb. P Mansur I'm always fighting this myth on Tubenet, so I'll continue my crusade here. ;) Tuba parts are NOT always concert pitch. Here in N.W. Europe *transposing* bass clef tuba parts are the norm, at least in band music and most amateur level literature. On Monday, October 10, 2005, at 07:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: . So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. It's not a modern developement, it's ancient! Trombones were used extensively in the 17th century and before to reinforce choirs. So, they read the choir parts (i.e. concert pitch) and never had to enter the whole 18th/19th century madness of transposing brass notation when the rest of the brass family entered the orchestra. Michiel van der Linden Bruges, Belgium ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
Now & then (but fortunately not often) an arranger or orchestrator comes along who is semi-confused on these matters, delivering up (for example) bass-clef bass-clarinet parts for bass clarinet in B-flat, defying the convention that bass clef parts are in concert key. Plus, rarely a treble-clef bass-clarinet part will show up for bass clarinet in A, despite that Key Of A bass clarinets are extremely scarce. Couldn't be much odder than playing a bass clef part for Horn In C, stopped. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. At 09:21 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote: In brief, only the treble clef is used for transposed parts. Bass clef instruments, including Eb tubas, CC tubas, and BBb tubas all read at actual pitch, and always have to the best of my knowledge of orchestration. Transposed tuba parts were popular when the town band was in its hey day. Played and fingered just like a cornet in Bb. P Mansur -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/127 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
In brief, only the treble clef is used for transposed parts. Bass clef instruments, including Eb tubas, CC tubas, and BBb tubas all read at actual pitch, and always have to the best of my knowledge of orchestration. Transposed tuba parts were popular when the town band was in its hey day. Played and fingered just like a cornet in Bb. P Mansur On Monday, October 10, 2005, at 07:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: I confess to being confused - I was helping a friend's son practice his audition for the middle school jazz band on the trombone. I thought the trombone was a B-flat instrument, and so it turns out to be in terms of the overtone series it plays, but the part is notated at concert pitch. On the other hand, trumpet parts for B-flat instrument are notated as such, sounding a step below written pitch. Horn in F is the same way, sounding the appropriate interval below written pitch. So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. Thanks in advance for a bit of an eduation here - I have not seen a "score" to the piece, only the individual parts for trumpet and trombone (and I'm quite sure the trombone part is written at concert pitch). -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/p_mansur1%40comcast.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
Yep, acoustically trombones are B-flat instruments. Notationally, however, trombones are bass-clef & sometimes tenor-clef concert-key instruments -- mostly. (Some ensembles still have parts written for B-flat treble-clef trombones, like the treble-clef euphonium parts you still see now & then. Most trombonists I know would be completely buffaloed at the prospect of trying to play off 1 of those parts.) Ideally, good musicians should be able to play parts for instruments in any key & any clef. The trombonist in my brass quintet, for example, plays 1 of the tunes in our book off a treble-clef horn in F part (2nd horn). Not many bone players I know can do that. However that may be, there are plenty of folks out there like me who have major serious trouble with transposition -- an embarrassing fundamental inadequacy for any horn player, even a rank amateur like me. The downside is I don't play orchestra much, because odd-key orchestral horn parts pop up so frequently & it's such a struggle trying to figure out what note to play. By the time I figure it out, it's too late to play it. The upside is I don't have to spend so much rehearsal & performance time counting l-o-n-g stretches of measures of rest so boringly prevalent in some of the classical repertoire. We concert band & brass quintet horn players have our instruments on our faces practically all the time, from intro to coda. (That could be how come I built up Chops Of Steel, I don't know.) -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ~ At 07:25 PM 10/10/2005, you wrote: I confess to being confused - I was helping a friend's son practice his audition for the middle school jazz band on the trombone. I thought the trombone was a B-flat instrument, and so it turns out to be in terms of the overtone series it plays, but the part is notated at concert pitch. On the other hand, trumpet parts for B-flat instrument are notated as such, sounding a step below written pitch. Horn in F is the same way, sounding the appropriate interval below written pitch. So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Is this a relatively new development in brass pedagogy, anything specific to the trombone, or perhaps to jazz/pop charts? I looked at the student's method book and it, too, is all in concert pitch. Thanks in advance for a bit of an eduation here - I have not seen a "score" to the piece, only the individual parts for trumpet and trombone (and I'm quite sure the trombone part is written at concert pitch). -S- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/127 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] OT: Notation of various transposing brass instruments now and then
On Oct 10, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Steve Freides wrote: So why is this student trombone part written at concert pitch and not in B-flat? Trumpet and horn parts were transposed so that the player was always looking at the same written pitches as being open partials, that is, written c1 is always 4th partial, regardless of the sounding pitch. Since the trombone has always been a fully chromatic instrument, there was no need for that. The downside is that alto trombone players need to get used to notes being in different slide positions than on a tenor. The same goes for tubas - the instrument has always had valves, so when tubists change between instruments in different keys, they have to use different fingerings. Trombone and tuba parts (except in British brass band notation, that is) are always written in C. Dan ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
