Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball and fear
In a message dated 9/17/2004 5:24:11 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Initially I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be once you have gained proficiency in all major and minor scales and there respective arpeggios do you continue to diligently practice them? If you do why do you continue down this path. If you don't why not and what do you practice? I continue to play scales, primarily as part of my warm up.When playing any kind of music I invariably come across a scale or part of a scale. It`s nice to have the passage already under my fingers so that I can look ahead and concentrate on other aspects of playing the piece. Wes Hatch ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball and fear
Jim, Initially I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be once you have gained proficiency in all major and minor scales and there respective arpeggios do you continue to diligently practice them? If you do why do you continue down this path. If you don't why not and what do you practice? I respect our traditions but don't necessarily view them as gospel in my teaching. I have the respect of my peers and would say in a public forum what I think. As I said to you privately the age range on the list is such that I chose to answer some e-mail privately. Don't take that as fear of reprisal from anyone. Debbie Schmidt ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball and fear
On Sep 17, 2004, at 5:00 PM, jlmthompson wrote: I imagine there are some of those who will speak 'for' because it's the 'right' thing to say, do and feel especially amongst peers, since their peers feel that way about it, but inwardly they really may be 'against'. I can't speak for any of the other posters, but let me assure you that I would never bother to post an opinion to the list just because I want to curry favor with my peers. You specifically asked for reasons to practice scales and I gave you some. If I didn't have any, I wouldn't have posted at all. Presumably, those who chose to write you privately have their own reasons for not practicing scales. While maintaining their desired anonymity, could you please relay some of their arguments against scale practice? Dan ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
In a message dated 9/16/04 4:22:21 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Couldn't our practice time be > better spent on other facets of the endeavor? > It all depends on how you practice scales. If you mindlessly run through them, then playing them is not to a useful purpose. However, since we are supposedly musical creators each time we play, if you put each scale into a musical context and create some type of musical challenge with it , then scales become helpful creative, difficult(if your challenges are), and fun. Paul Navarro ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
jlmthompson wrote: Here's my analogy. ... So why practice it when time spent juggling a soccer ball could be better spent doing other things with the ball for that time? Your analogy is flawed in my opinion. This one Scales : horn playing :: dribbling the ball around cones : soccer is more like the way I view scales. You will never dribble the ball around cones in a game, but the ball control you develop in such a drill will help you in a game. As many others have pointed out, scales DO come in handy in actual horn playing from time to time (La Gazza Ladra, et al.). Additionally, scales are a good drill for memorizing fingering patterns and for general finger facility. If you play scales in other patterns (132435465768798, for example) you are only becoming facile in more patterns that come up in actual music making. Greg ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
Juggling and scales are really surprisingly similar, although I'm a lot better at scales than I am at juggling. I remember juggling when my step-mom would yell at me for kicking the ball against the house. Anyway, I think at least with juggling, the touch required to juggle well carries over into general ball control, for example. I generally use scales in warming up and it's not merely for fingers. I practice articulation, breathing, etc etc. It's my responsibility to see the connection between something fundamental like scales and real music. The fact is, most of real music is based on scales, whether they are in their do re mi fa so la ti(or whatever you use) fashion, or in arpeggios etc etc etc, so what one ingrains mechanically comes out naturally. I bet if someone said play Mozart 1 in E-flat without the music, you'd know exactly what and when to push, assuming you knew the tune and what not. I guess my point is, for me at least, it's not so much the actual act of playing the scale, it's that it's kind of like music condensed into a can and you gotta use that to make some soup? Ok that was ridiculous. Chris --- jlmthompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I hope I don't get the 'tradition' answer to this one like I did to the > 'transposing' dialog. I've been playing horn off and on over the last 40 > years. I play now in a decent symphony in the pacific northwest, it's not > 1st class but it's decent and well respected. But I'm trying to find the > true underlying use for 'scales' during a practice or warmup or what have > you. Yes, I can play all of them and minor scales etc and I know all the > theory that goes with it so don't give me the 'idiot' line, but what value > do they really serve for the time spent doing them. Why do instructors push > 'scales' into a students' practice time. When do you use 'scales' or how do > you benefit from doing 'scales' when it comes time for a performance? Do we > practice scales because our teachers did whose teachers did etc? > Here's my analogy. I played professional soccer years ago in the US in > the NASL and I'm still a class 'A' coach in the US, coaching high school > boys right now but licensed to coach anywhere from tiny tots to > professionals yada yada. Anyway, my point is, I've 'been there done that' > in the sport of soccer. Juggling is a 'habit' kids start when they're all > on their own with a soccer ball and when they have nothing 'better' to do > with their time only because no one has taught them better things to do with > that practice time by themselves. IMO juggling serves absolutely no purpose > and I discourage my players from practicing it. You really don't develop > usable skills doing it nor do you use it or do it in a game. So why > practice it when time spent juggling a soccer ball could be better spent > doing other things with the ball for that time? > Juggling a soccer ball is better than doing nothing with it at all. > Practicing scales is better than leaving the horn dormant and not playing it > at all. But as with juggling in soccer, couldn't we find 'better' things to > put into our practice time than 'scales'?Couldn't our practice time be > better spent on other facets of the endeavor? > Jim > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/tedesccj%40yahoo.com > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
Well, I have always followed conventional wisdom with regard to scales, yet in all honesty while I can play an F# major scale three octaves with no problem, I will invariably stumble if given a something to play in F# major. I think people learn things differently, and the ability to transfer psycho-motor skills from one activity to another varies from person to person. The "carry-over" factor doesn't always apply to all people, I think. I have studied all of the standard etude material over the period of much of my lifetime, yet I find being able to play a Maxime-Alphonse or a Kopprasch etude is almost an entity unto itself, and might not relate to performing an orchestral work, or my ability to transfer the teaching point of a particular etude, doesn't transfer to real world playing. I know that this goes against conventional wisdom, it is a phenomenon, however that several of my teachers have remarked about over a period of years. I can't make what is applicable in A, applicable in B even though there might be some connection or patterning or similarity. I have learned to compensate for this and rely on painful rote learning which is not always realistic given the time frames that we are given sometimes. Right now I am working on a horn part in B (IV horn 3rd mvt, Brahms 1st). Now I have done transposition studies in B, played horn in B before, yet when I practice that particular part, my fingers still fumble maybe once out of every three attemptsI have never been able to solve this problem, and I notice this with regard to learning other psycho-motor skills as well. I think that people are wired different ways, and while conventional wisdom works for the majority of people most of the time, there are those who for whatever reason still encounter difficulties even when they follow it. I sort of hated to get into true confessions here, but it is something that has vexed me for much of my 56 years of living. I probably had an undiagnosed learning disability as a kid...but then in the 50's people weren't into that. There are no universal answers or perhaps it could be stated that there are exceptions to every rule. Sincerely, Mark L. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
The Trinity exams in England no longer require candiditates to play scales. I think this is crazy (although there have been some interesting developments of late) I usually find that those of my students who opt to play the extra study instead of scales are the ones who most need to work on scales. I am rather a sod to them - those who choose the study instead of scales I make do the study and the scales as well - they finish up having to do both. I find it cures them. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg" http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
OK, I'll attempt this one. A scale will teach you all the notes to "expect" in that key signature/mode. After learning them in thirds, multiple octaves, starting on every degree of the scale, interval studies, Clark exercises, arpeggios, and whatever other patterns you can think of, and being able to play rapidly THEN you will feel comfortable reading technical stuff in that key, (or for us, also that transposition) and only having to watch out for the accidentals. The first exercises we transpose are often scale pattern, ie "Here's the pattern, play in all keys" In the more chromatic music, knowing your scales well enough allows you to look at a few lines of music and notice where you have modulated to--this will affect how you tune the chord members and phrase to cadences and help you to hear the music correctly before you play. It's also good when you first teach "advanced tuning" to teach students how to tune each note of the scale as a foundation for good tuning in all situations...certain scale degrees function in a certain way more time than not. Then you can learn the exceptions. If I didn't have to go to rehearsal right now, I could think of some more. I love scales. Shane McLaughlin 2nd, Knoxville On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 17:08, jlmthompson wrote: > I hope I don't get the 'tradition' answer to this one like I did to the > 'transposing' dialog. I've been playing horn off and on over the last 40 > years. I play now in a decent symphony in the pacific northwest, it's not > 1st class but it's decent and well respected. But I'm trying to find the > true underlying use for 'scales' during a practice or warmup or what have > you. Yes, I can play all of them and minor scales etc and I know all the > theory that goes with it so don't give me the 'idiot' line, but what value > do they really serve for the time spent doing them. Why do instructors push > 'scales' into a students' practice time. When do you use 'scales' or how do > you benefit from doing 'scales' when it comes time for a performance? Do we > practice scales because our teachers did whose teachers did etc? > Here's my analogy. I played professional soccer years ago in the US in > the NASL and I'm still a class 'A' coach in the US, coaching high school > boys right now but licensed to coach anywhere from tiny tots to > professionals yada yada. Anyway, my point is, I've 'been there done that' > in the sport of soccer. Juggling is a 'habit' kids start when they're all > on their own with a soccer ball and when they have nothing 'better' to do > with their time only because no one has taught them better things to do with > that practice time by themselves. IMO juggling serves absolutely no purpose > and I discourage my players from practicing it. You really don't develop > usable skills doing it nor do you use it or do it in a game. So why > practice it when time spent juggling a soccer ball could be better spent > doing other things with the ball for that time? > Juggling a soccer ball is better than doing nothing with it at all. > Practicing scales is better than leaving the horn dormant and not playing it > at all. But as with juggling in soccer, couldn't we find 'better' things to > put into our practice time than 'scales'?Couldn't our practice time be > better spent on other facets of the endeavor? > Jim > > ___ > post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/mclaughlin_shane%40hotmail.com ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
On Sep 16, 2004, at 4:08 PM, jlmthompson wrote: I hope I don't get the 'tradition' answer to this one like I did to the 'transposing' dialog. When do you use 'scales' or how do you benefit from doing 'scales' when it comes time for a performance? An interesting juxtaposition of topics here :-) IMHO, one of the biggest benefits of scale practice is that it helps transposition. Say you see a C major scale on the page written for horn in E; if you've done your scale practice it's a very simple matter to play a B major scale without giving any conscious thought to what key signature or actual pitches you're playing. Amy's citation of the little solo in La Gazza Ladra is a perfect example of just that. Thorough command of scales is also a big help in sight reading. Mentally engaged playing of scales can also be useful for practicing articulation patterns and styles, refining intonation and improving breath control. Dan Dan Phillips University of Memphis site administrator: music.memphis.edu ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
In a message dated 9/16/2004 5:22:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > When do you use 'scales' or how do > you benefit from doing 'scales' when it comes time for a performance? Do we > practice scales because our teachers did whose teachers did etc? > As the song from The Sound of Music goes, "When you write you begin with A, B, C, When you sing you begin with do, re mi" It's foundational. Dave Weiner ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Scales and Juggling a Soccer ball
When do you use 'scales' or how do you benefit from doing 'scales' when it comes time for a performance? Well, I think any time you play a Mozart concerto, the overture to La Gazza Ladra, or 4th horn solo from Beethoven's 9th symphony, (to name but a few examples) they come in pretty handy! A. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
