Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 07:58:48PM -0700, Caryl Bigenho wrote: Hi Folks, This is a FYI... Carlos Rebassa, a Rap Ceibal volunteer many of us met in Uruguay has come up with a surprisingly critical complaint about Sugar. He included a link to an English version, but did not send it to IAEP or the Support Gang lists. I have no idea what prompted his criticisms nor can I figure out exactly what they are. Carlos is fluent in English. He lived in New York and sold Real Estate there for many years. If any of you want to reply, you can send it to the olpc-sur list or directly to Carlos. Caryl He points out Apple as a top-down company and the FLOSS folks as horizontal. Its sort of might parallel Canonical vs Debian. Apple is more polished because it pays experts and does lots of user testing. I'm sure if OLPC/Sugarlabs had the same resources, it might do similar. I know that Sugar was pushed out into the world with less than perfect feedback where kids could be observed in school setting (or that is what I recall from the days of 656). And that the South American deployments are a valuable source of feedback. And as soon as that is added to Sugarlabs efforts, everyone will benefit. As to the idea that other OS's that are Office-focused and are made by companies that have spent lot on user testing and design, again, that is a luxury that OLPC/Sugarlabs did not have. What they did produce was damn great considering what they had to work with and it implemented an idea that was new and revolutionary and targeted for kids. People often forget their first time using new user interfaces and how they stumbled with them until they got lots of help from other users or teachers. And the basic elements for Windows, Mac and Linux are reasonable similar when using it for office automation. I know it took a bit of time to get some of the elements and it might be useful to have a few video tutorials for both teachers and students for some of the more confusing elements of Sugar (which is being improved with the valuable feedback of many stateholder). I was not able to understand exactly what he was saying, he'd need to produce a lists of specific things that Sugarlabs could address. And I'm sure they'd like to add his ideas. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| We're constantly being bombarded by insulting and humiliating music, which people are making for you the way they make those Wonder Bread products. Just as food can be bad for your system, music can be bad for your spiritual and emotional feelings. It might taste good or clever, but in the long run, it's not going to do anything for you. -- Bob Dylan, LA Times, September 5, 1984 ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
Am 15.06.2011 11:28, schrieb Kevin Mark: On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 07:58:48PM -0700, Caryl Bigenho wrote: Hi Folks, This is a FYI... Carlos Rebassa, a Rap Ceibal volunteer many of us met in Uruguay has come up with a surprisingly critical complaint about Sugar. He included a link to an English version, but did not send it to IAEP or the Support Gang lists. I have no idea what prompted his criticisms nor can I figure out exactly what they are. Carlos is fluent in English. He lived in New York and sold Real Estate there for many years. If any of you want to reply, you can send it to the olpc-sur list or directly to Carlos. Caryl He points out Apple as a top-down company and the FLOSS folks as horizontal. Its sort of might parallel Canonical vs Debian. Apple is more polished because it pays experts and does lots of user testing. I'm sure if OLPC/Sugarlabs had the same resources, it might do similar. I know that Sugar was pushed out into the world with less than perfect feedback where kids could be observed in school setting (or that is what I recall from the days of 656). And that the South American deployments are a valuable source of feedback. And as soon as that is added to Sugarlabs efforts, everyone will benefit. As to the idea that other OS's that are Office-focused and are made by companies that have spent lot on user testing and design, again, that is a luxury that OLPC/Sugarlabs did not have. What they did produce was damn great considering what they had to work with and it implemented an idea that was new and revolutionary and targeted for kids. People often forget their first time using new user interfaces and how they stumbled with them until they got lots of help from other users or teachers. And the basic elements for Windows, Mac and Linux are reasonable similar when using it for office automation. I know it took a bit of time to get some of the elements and it might be useful to have a few video tutorials for both teachers and students for some of the more confusing elements of Sugar (which is being improved with the valuable feedback of many stateholder). I was not able to understand exactly what he was saying, he'd need to produce a lists of specific things that Sugarlabs could address. And I'm sure they'd like to add his ideas. Paolo Benini, another core volunteer from Montevideo, wrote up some more specific criticism - which is mainly focused on the Journal - on http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/2011-June/008474.html In my reply to him I said what I also said in my eduJAM! summary for OLPC News (http://www.olpcnews.com/use_cases/community/a_look_back_at_conozco_uruguay.html): We now seem to have a broad consensus among the community and developers that the Journal needs some serious love. Walter also spent a large part of one of his eduJAM! presentations on that topic. The coding sprint after the summit itself also dedicated quite a bit of time on the Journal and I pointed Paolo to the relevant notes on the wiki. More than the actual complaints itself I think this clearly shows that we absolutely need to improve our communication channels to enable this kind of vital feedback from people close to deployments to reach the wider community. As C Scott mentioned in a different context many months ago it's not just about just hearing these types of comments but actually listening to and subsequently acting on them. As a global community the frustration evident in the messages by Carlos and Paolo, undoubtably two of the most dedicated volunteers we have, should really give us something to think about. Particularly because at the end of the day it's their local work - more than anything we do thousands of kilometers away - which will decide what kind of impact Plan Ceibal will have in Uruguay over the long run. Cheers, Christoph -- Christoph Derndorfer co-editor, www.olpcnews.com e-mail: christ...@olpcnews.com ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
/Kevin Mark wrote: He also talks about using OO4kids with uses a non-sugar dialog box. That should be fixed with a technological solution. --- / Hi, Kevin: The problem that I was Talking about on the other e-mail, is about the Journal, it's really absurd that I am complaining about the same thing for more than three Years and the things are the same like in 2008 Your are saying that the Journal problem is only a technological thing, and you said to solve it only with a technological solution. No. It is not only technological , I don't have to be Einstein to know that if the same problem continues after more 3 or four years, it is not only technical problem. If your are a Car maker, and you make a car that are lack of one wheel, yo can not anwer after 3 years of production /it is a technological thing, someone will solve it/ -- I Am talking about the problem about the incompatibility between the Sugarized programs vs the normal linux programs , like the games that the children wants. There are thousands of programs in Linux that don't uses the JOurnal, so there are useless. The solutions it is not saying /well, sugarize and 'journalize' those programs/. *In 2007 or 2008 that was a good answer, but after 4 years it is only a joke* ANother answers that now sounds like a joke are: /use a pendrive/. or /change the activity by your self/. We heard those answeas years ago I we didn't complain, there was a good answer. but after years and years . It is absurd that the children in Uruguay has to install Wine (a windows emulator) so they can play their games and download the music. It's almost a joke, because the children can install lots and lots of games on Wine, much more games that they can install in Sugar! And in wine they uses the Directory system of the windows, with no problems. It is really absurd to say to Children: /you don't have to download music with wine, use the OGG version of the songs/.. That anwer is really Out of this world, that answer means that the author of the answer never sit down behind a child with an XO. A person that pretends that a Child will use Ogg because is legal.. has his mind in another galaxy. Before talking about Ogg, please see how many songs are in Mp3 and how many in ogg (on the internet) *The people (adults or childre) don't even know that legally they can't hear an MP3* with his Mp3 player, because that 20 dollars Mp3 Player didn't paid the Mp3 Licence! Nobody even knows that the Mp3 format is not free! So it is absurd to tell to a children about usin OGG instead of mp3. *_It is absurd to tell a children to MODIFY A PROGRAM in SUGAR_*.. please - A technical problem that you can not solve in 3 or 4 years.. it s no more technical, the problem is bigger. In 2008 I Heard the same exactly ansewrs like yours, Kevin, answers like /ok, we will solve that technical problem, don't worry/. For example: if all my students don't pass the year... the problem it's not the children.. the problem is the teacher, or the sistem. - I have lots of other complaints , this problem about the JOurnal is only the tip of the iceberg. Sorry for my very bad English thanks Paolo Benini Rap-Ceibal - Montevideo ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
I Am talking about the problem about the incompatibility between the Sugarized programs vs the normal linux programs , like the games that the children wants. There are thousands of programs in Linux that don't uses the Journal, so there are useless. This seems to be the common thread between here and earlier posts: I know how to run program ZZZ on a non-Sugar system. Why can't I (easily/simply) put it on a Sugar system (for a kid who wants it)? I don't have to be Einstein to know that if the same problem continues after more 3 or four years, it is not only technical problem. This is true. My personal comment is that I haven't noticed to run programs like ZZZ as among the goals of the OLPC. [I might *want* to marry a particular celebrity - but that doesn't mean that that celebrity would have to marry Mikus as one of her goals.] Does it mean the end of the world if the kid can't run ZZZ inside Sugar? Paolo - if you do not see other people planning to implement a goal of to run programs like ZZZ inside Sugar - being upset at the existing situation does not help - try to figure out where in this situation changes might be feasible - then start beating on doors. mikus ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Mikus Grinbergs mi...@bga.com wrote: I Am talking about the problem about the incompatibility between the Sugarized programs vs the normal linux programs , like the games that the children wants. There are thousands of programs in Linux that don't uses the Journal, so there are useless. This seems to be the common thread between here and earlier posts: I know how to run program ZZZ on a non-Sugar system. Why can't I (easily/simply) put it on a Sugar system (for a kid who wants it)? I don't have to be Einstein to know that if the same problem continues after more 3 or four years, it is not only technical problem. This is true. My personal comment is that I haven't noticed to run programs like ZZZ as among the goals of the OLPC. [I might *want* to marry a particular celebrity - but that doesn't mean that that celebrity would have to marry Mikus as one of her goals.] Does it mean the end of the world if the kid can't run ZZZ inside Sugar? Paolo - if you do not see other people planning to implement a goal of to run programs like ZZZ inside Sugar - being upset at the existing situation does not help - try to figure out where in this situation changes might be feasible - then start beating on doors. mikus Mikus, Thanks for your summary. FWIW, I actually think it is important that Sugar plays well with the non-Sugar world, but it certainly wasn't an initial priority. There are a number of initiatives underway that will improve the situation; I mentioned a few in an early post, such as the ability to access and edit non-Sugar files directly from within the Sugar UI. Also, many, but not every, Sugar activities will run within both Sugar and the GNOME desktop. The eventual transition to GNOME 3.0 and PYGI will make a big difference in our ability to support more interoperability as well. All of that said, let me repeat an argument I made regarding the Sugar Journal during the EduJam summit last month: we developed the Journal not because we wanted to be incompatible with the rest of the world but because we wanted to address some pedagogical needs. Specifically, we want the children to have a place to reflect upon their work. The Journal is their portfolio. Reflection requires effort and some developers consider the prompts to write in the Journal as an annoyance. But when I ask those same developers if they think adding a commit message to their commits in git, they immediately understand the value. So some of the annoyance of the Journal is because we have not completely solved the UI issues (the good news is that Simon has some patches landing that fix some of these issues) but some of the annoyance is because we want to make the path of least resistance be one where the children are prompted to be reflective-- to write in their lab notebooks about what they are doing and why and to make presentations to their teachers, parents, and fellow students about their work. (The latter is facilitated by the new Portfolio activity.) In any case, concrete feedback and criticism is welcome. Thanks. -walter ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [support-gang] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar
When the majority of classes are using the Browse activity (did we hear something like 70-80% ? ) it sounds like it would be wise to discuss ChromeOS and browser-based applications, possibly using a modern browser such a Webkit. I seem to have heard that the current Browse Activity does not even have a maintainer assigned to it. That is a problem of resource availability Would introducing (and deploying, and maintaining) something like ChromeOS reduce the load on the resources available ? I myself run a whole suite of Browsers on my XOs. For the websites I normally visit, there is very little difference among these browsers (that includes Browse). In particular, I have found neither the Chrome browser nor the Midori browser (which is Webkit based) to have better performance than Browse (when Browse has a good Flash plugin installed). [The joker is Opera - its performance varies - sometimes it's the best.] mikus ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
