Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms -----> OT

[Linda Mooney]

Hi Jim, 



No need for apologies, I didn't mind the question at all.  If you don't mind 
my  asking, where is Dulwich? 



Thanks, 



Linda 

- Original Message -


From: "Jim Thomas"  
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 9:14:56 PM 
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT 

My apologies Ma'am, 

In the US but was raised in Dulwich, hence my question.   


Kind Regards 

Jim Thomas 
617-233-4130             (mobile) 
636-294-1014                (res) 
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email) 

-Original Message- 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 10:03 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT 

Hi Jim, 



Not in the UK, never been there.  I do like the BBC website.   

Linda 

- Original Message - 


From: "Jim Thomas"  
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 7:53:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT 

List ... my apologies ... just a quick question if I may. 

Linda .. are you in the UK ?? and if so .. where ??. 


Kind Regards 

Jim Thomas 
617-233-4130             (mobile) 
636-294-1014                (res) 
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email) 

-Original Message- 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:17 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Subject: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15124005 



Linda 

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Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms -----> OT

[Jim Thomas]

My apologies Ma'am,

In the US but was raised in Dulwich, hence my question.  


Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 10:03 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT

Hi Jim, 



Not in the UK, never been there.  I do like the BBC website.  

Linda 

- Original Message -


From: "Jim Thomas"  
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 7:53:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT 

List ... my apologies ... just a quick question if I may. 

Linda .. are you in the UK ?? and if so .. where ??. 


Kind Regards 

Jim Thomas 
617-233-4130 (mobile) 
636-294-1014(res) 
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email) 

-Original Message- 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:17 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Subject: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15124005 



Linda 

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Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

p...@voltage.com (Phil Smith) writes:
> Yeah, editors are definitely religion. But ISPF on VM sucked
> unequivocally just because of how fragile it was, due to how they
> implemented it - whether you liked the functionality or not, having to
> deal with it breaking all the time was horrible. And left a very bad
> taste in many VMers' mouths that may or may not have been deserved (he
> said, trying desperately to avoid the religious part of the
> argument!).

ISPF had a different VM issue involving the VM performance tools group
... misc. past posts mentioning tale told at share (i.e. diverting
funds from tools group into ISPF development):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#17 Where's all the VMers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#33 XEDIT on MVS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#40 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#50 TSO and more was: PDP-1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#46 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#6 Call for XEDIT freaks, submit ISPF 
requirements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#50 Call for XEDIT freaks, submit ISPF 
requirements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#84 Set numbers off permanently
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011h.html#62 Do you remember back to June 23, 1969 
when IBM unbundled

past posts in this thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#30 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#34 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#41 CMS load module format

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Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms -----> OT

[Linda Mooney]

Hi Jim, 



Not in the UK, never been there.  I do like the BBC website.  

Linda 

- Original Message -


From: "Jim Thomas"  
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Sent: Saturday, October 1, 2011 7:53:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech 
firms -> OT 

List ... my apologies ... just a quick question if I may. 

Linda .. are you in the UK ?? and if so .. where ??. 


Kind Regards 

Jim Thomas 
617-233-4130             (mobile) 
636-294-1014                (res) 
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email) 

-Original Message- 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney 
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:17 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
Subject: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15124005 



Linda 

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Re: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms -----> OT

[Jim Thomas]

List ... my apologies ... just a quick question if I may.

Linda .. are you in the UK ?? and if so .. where ??.


Kind Regards

Jim Thomas
617-233-4130 (mobile)
636-294-1014(res)
j...@thethomasresidence.us (Email)

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Linda Mooney
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 6:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15124005 



Linda 

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Re: CMS load module format

[Phil Smith]

Ed Finnell wrote:
>These things take on religious zeal pretty quickly. I was having a  pretty
>good tussle with the VMer's in our shop about ISPF under VM and  they wrote
>some real poison pen memos to the PHB's. Guess the silencer was  we did a
>little tour and they were all using Qedit or what ever it was called
>then(same vendor that did original Super Session) and ISPF development let you
>choose your editor in profile.

Yeah, editors are definitely religion. But ISPF on VM sucked unequivocally just 
because of how fragile it was, due to how they implemented it - whether you 
liked the functionality or not, having to deal with it breaking all the time 
was horrible. And left a very bad taste in many VMers' mouths that may or may 
not have been deserved (he said, trying desperately to avoid the religious part 
of the argument!).

I'm using ISPF now, and while I find a number of things about it frustrating, 
there are also neat things. And some fraction of the frustrations are just 
because my hands are trained to do XEDIT stuff after all these years. The other 
day, I did a FIND in KEDIT when I meant to do a LOCATE, so now I'm just 
confused!

(I also have Cygwin installed on Windows, which leaves me even more messed up 
as to what command is likely to work in any given environment, as I move among 
systems. I feel like Walter Matthau in House Calls, in which he says something 
like "There ought to be just one blood type. A. Or O. Doesn't really matter": 
there ought to be ONE command to do the same thing in all OSes!)

...phsiii

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Re: CMS load module format

[Ed Finnell]

These things take on religious zeal pretty quickly. I was having a  pretty 
good tussle with the VMer's in our shop about ISPF under VM and  they wrote 
some real poison pen memos to the PHB's. Guess the silencer was  we did a 
little tour and they were all using Qedit or what ever it was called  
then(same vendor that did original Super Session) and ISPF development let you  
choose your editor in profile. 
 
 
In a message dated 10/1/2011 8:53:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
l...@garlic.com writes:

In one  case, there was comment from the Endicott edit release group that
it was  the "fault" of the author of one of these other editors that it
was more  robust and had more function than xedit ... and therefor it
should be his  responsibility to make all the enhancements to xedit (as
opposed to  releasing his editor).



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Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

li...@akphs.com (Phil Smith III) writes:
> Yes, Edgar was an add-on product. It was somewhat similar to XEDIT in
> a lot of ways. There were apparently a number of full-screen CMS
> editors inside IBM, but XEDIT is the one that got picked for VM/SP.

x-over from z/vm mailing list:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format

original cp67/cms edit worked somewhat more like unix sed ... where read
read original file as stream outputing to temp/work file and then would
ping back&forth between two temp/work files before replacing the
original file. a new editor was created that ran out of cms (virtual)
memory ... and the previous edit was renamed cedit (the new "edit" could
only handle files that would fit in virtual memory ... but cedit could
edit arbitrary large files ... larger than available memory).

move to vm370/cms and 3270 ... the standard cms editor was updated to
display a fullscreen of the file ... but retained command line
operation. EDGAR added fullscreen editing ... i.e. changes could be made
directly to data displayed on screen ... as well as other commands on
each line.

By the time of xedit, there were quite a few internal "full-screen"
editors that were quite robust and had large number of functions. I
had gotten involved in trying to justify one of these others as
alternative to xedit ... old post in ibm-main
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#26
that includees these old emails
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email781103
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email790606
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800311
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800312
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800429
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800501

In one case, there was comment from the Endicott edit release group that
it was the "fault" of the author of one of these other editors that it
was more robust and had more function than xedit ... and therefor it
should be his responsibility to make all the enhancements to xedit (as
opposed to releasing his editor).

this is trivial benchmark from Jun79 of various cms editors (giving
virtual & total cpu use for edit of same file):
EDIT CMSLIB MACLIB S   2.53/2.81
RED CMSLIB MACLIB S  (NODEF)   2.91/3.12
ZED CMSLIB MACLIB S5.83/6.52
EDGAR CMSLIB MACLIB S  5.96/6.45
SPF CMSLIB MACLIB S ( WHOLE )  6.66/7.52
XEDIT CMSLIB MACLIB S 14.05/14.88
NED CMSLIB MACLIB S   15.70/16.52

"EDIT" is the standard CMS edit ... all the other editors were
fullscreen and nearly all were more robust and except for "NED" was
significantly more efficient than XEDIT.

As an aside ... one of the above emails makes reference to sending me
tape for system distribution. One of my hobbies was creating,
distributing, and supporting highly enhanced operating systems for
internal use.

this old email mentions doing csc/vm for internal distribution:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#7

this old email makes some mention doing sjr/vm for internal distribution
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830709
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830711
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830711b
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#12

and then there were operations like HONE which would do world-wide
re-distributions for the HONE-clones all over the world ... misc.
past posts mentioning HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

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Re: CMS load module format

[zMan]

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Eric Bielefeld  wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I have a strong suggestion.  If you don't remember something clearly, don't
> post.  You're always saying "I think", or mentioning your "fuzzy memory". If
> you're not sure, don't post.  I have the same problem, and if I'm not sure
> of my facts, I don't post, or I look it up.

Wow. We're discussing history here. As noted, 40 years is a long time;
his post may well jog  others' memories.

There are a number of frequent offenders who would do well not to
"contribute". Ed isn't one of them. You don't like his posts,
unsubscribe or learn to use a killfile.

You might also learn to use email -- a comment like yours would be
better sent privately.
-- 
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1317402530.12618.yahoomailmob...@web161404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, on
09/30/2011
   at 10:08 AM, Ed Gould  said:

>APPLE is supposedly famous for ease of use

Of course, but that doesn't mean that it really is easy to use.
 
-- 
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 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
,
on 09/30/2011
   at 07:05 AM, Michael Klaeschen 
said:

>One day I had a really big problem. Of course, it was my fault, I had
> forget some details and been too stupid before, etc pp... . But dear
>god likes me and therefore I got help.

There's a difference between helping you and doing your job for you.
Scott's complaint was about people who want a baby-sitter, not a
mentor.

>I will not underestimate that persons' effort for learning and 
>gratitude for getting help.

Exactly; that person *wanted* to learn, unlike the people Scott
complained about.
 
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <4e851657.1080...@ync.net>, on 09/29/2011
   at 08:07 PM, Rick Fochtman  said:

>As long as we have the current "liberal" and "politically correct" 
>press, public ridicule will remain stifled.

As long as we have the current right wing politically correct media,
public ridicule will remain stifled.
 
-- 
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In ,
on 09/29/2011
   at 03:41 PM, "McKown, John"  said:

>But, this is the Windows generation. Where everything should be
>intuitive 

But isn't, at least not in windoze.

I don't have a link, but "Abbott and Costello do Windows" is
hilarious. Who's on First?
 
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1317329708.85777.yahoomail...@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, on
09/29/2011
   at 01:55 PM, Scott Ford  said:

>Has a manager on VM who has use learn the VM commands under the
>clists.

I might believe EXEC, EXEC2 or REXX, but CLIST?
 
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Re: OT to my collegues

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <1317328017.55479.yahoomail...@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, on
09/29/2011
   at 01:26 PM, Scott Ford  said:

>Is that I am getting older or are people forgetting how to read IBM
>manuals .

Yes. It were ever thus. Most people in the field seem to rely on urban
legends rather than the documentation.
 
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Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <201109291802.p8ti2a7x001...@dave.dignus.com>, on 09/29/2011
   at 02:02 PM, Thomas David Rivers  said:

>Can anyone point me to a description of the CMS non-relocatable load
>module format?

For Virtual Machine Facility/370, but not for any of the chargeable
versions.
 
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Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<985915eee6984740ae93f8495c624c6c21dc349...@jscpcwexmaa1.bsg.ad.adp.com>,
on 09/30/2011
   at 08:52 AM, "Farley, Peter x23353" 
said:

>There is no version of XEDIT available in any form (or wasn't the
>last time I checked, anyway).  XEDIT only came with VM/SP2 and up, I
>believe.

That's correct. There is a clone, but AFAIK The Hessling Editor (THE)
won't run on Virtual Machine Facility/370.

>IIRC there is no easy FTP in or out of VM/370.  Your only real
>transfer capability is the VM/370 system reader and punch. 

RSCS[1]. You need a CTCA or BSC link to use it.

[1] Can only handle print and punch files, alas. However, you
mentioned a couple of programs that can transoform files
into card images.
 
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Re: CMS load module format

[Eric Bielefeld]

Ed,

I have a strong suggestion.  If you don't remember something clearly, don't 
post.  You're always saying "I think", or mentioning your "fuzzy memory". 
If you're not sure, don't post.  I have the same problem, and if I'm not 
sure of my facts, I don't post, or I look it up.


Eric Bielefeld
Sr. Systems Programmer

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Gould" 



Phil,

We had vm on a 4331 for testing. I "think" we had Edgar (40 years) is I 
long time to remember. My fuzzy memory was that it came with the IPO. IBM 
had xedit in the IBM Ed centers and there were enough differences at times 
I would swear at the 3270. Then on top of that DOSVSE Had it's own editor 
which was just plain bad.


EDGAR was deceit but I still preferred ISPF.

Ed 


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Re: CMS load module format

[Ed Gould]

Phil,

We had vm on a 4331 for testing. I "think" we had Edgar (40 years) is I long 
time to remember. My fuzzy memory was that it came with the IPO. IBM had xedit 
in the IBM Ed centers and there were enough differences at times I would swear 
at the 3270. Then on top of that DOSVSE Had it's own editor which was just 
plain bad.

EDGAR was deceit but I still preferred ISPF.

Ed





On Sep 30, 2011, at 9:42 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Stephen Powell wrote:
>> Yes, I remember that.  But there was a full-screen 3270 editor similar to
>> XEDIT available with VM/370 release 6 called EDGAR.  I think it was
>> an add-on product.  I don't think it was part of VM/370.
> 
> Yes, Edgar was an add-on product. It was somewhat similar to XEDIT in a lot 
> of ways. There were apparently a number of full-screen CMS editors inside 
> IBM, but XEDIT is the one that got picked for VM/SP.
> 
> ...phsiii
> 
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Interesting article today on the BBC website about the top tech firms

[Linda Mooney]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15124005 



Linda 

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Re: TCBFX vs. TCBNOIRB

[Peter Relson]

TCBFX is not part of the programming interface and as such it should not 
be used under any circumstance.
Discussion of its behavior can be entertaining but you should not expect 
much in the way of facts on the subject.

Basically TCBFX and TCBNOIRB are involved with suppression of IRBs / 
SIRBs. They have nothing to do with SRBs.
TCBFX had some scenarios where it was not preserved (might be turned off 
and then back on again which in effect negated its use by its original 
setter of preventing IRBs).
For fear of breaking something with a very subtle dependency by changing 
the behavior of TCBFX, TCBNOIRB was created to have the "desired" 
behavior.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design

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AUTO: Jim Obrizok is out of the office on Thursday July 28th, and Friday July 29th. I'll be back in the office on Monday, August 1st. (returning 10/03/2011)

[James Obrizok]

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