Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 04/09/2008 at 09:52 AM, Kelman, Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hmmm, are we comparing languages a little bit here? When I was an undergraduate student at Ga. Tech (many years ago) the school computer was a Burroughs 5500. When I went back for my Masters in Computer Science that machine was the Computer Science Department's play toy. It was an interesting machine since it had plug-n-play before plug-n-play. You'd create a small gen with necessary devices like the card reader and punch. Then when you IPL'd the system would just look around to determine what other devices were attached to it. The language used was ALGOL. In fact the operating system itself was written in ALGOL. ITYM a combination of Extended ALGOL, DC ALGOL and ESPOL. I always felt that it was a very powerful language ALOGOL 60 wasn't all that pwerful. Don't judge it by Extended ALGOL. and was sorry it didn't catch on better. The ACM doesn't even use it as an algotithm publication language any more. They've replaced it with languages much less suitable. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Arellanes Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? Try TRUNC(OPT), you will get: LH2,14(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 A 2,0(0,8)MYDATA ST2,0(0,8)MYDATA See the COBOL Performance Tuning paper at http://www- 306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/cobol/library/ for more info on the TRUNC compiler option, as well as the performance implications of using the various suboptions of TRUNC. Rick Arellanes (IBM COBOL Development and Performance) Thanks. COBOL really confuses me at times. I'm going to double check what our TRUNC option is. On my 3.4.1 compile, I guess since I used a literal, I got the code: LA5,1(0,0) A 5,0(0,2)MYDATA ST5,0(0,2)MYDATA -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Hmmm, are we comparing languages a little bit here? When I was an undergraduate student at Ga. Tech (many years ago) the school computer was a Burroughs 5500. When I went back for my Masters in Computer Science that machine was the Computer Science Department's play toy. It was an interesting machine since it had plug-n-play before plug-n-play. You'd create a small gen with necessary devices like the card reader and punch. Then when you IPL'd the system would just look around to determine what other devices were attached to it. The language used was ALGOL. In fact the operating system itself was written in ALGOL. I always felt that it was a very powerful language and was sorry it didn't catch on better. Tom Kelman Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? PL/1 is the UnCOBOL When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I course, but (for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
(fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
(I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
--snip--- COBOL is the Language of the Future! unsnip--- PL/1 is the UnCOBOL :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Funny thing - I was just writing about COBOL yesterday: Is COBOL like Oil? : http://www.cicsworld.com/node/559 Thanks Corneel Booysen. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? On 8 Apr 2008 10:55:13 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Ross) wrote: I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... It's certainly not dead - but its share is dropping as alternative tools do more tasks. I don't think it is more alive today than it was 10 years ago. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ross Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! Tom, I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Grace Hopper would be proud...! Charles S. Kammer -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Ross Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct? (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
PL/1 is the UnCOBOL When I was a UofW student in the mid-1970's, they offered a PL/I course, but (for some reason) it was a non-credit course for Math/CS students. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Having recently been downsized from a COBOL shop, I agree. Some of them can create COBOL code to do things faster than I can do it in SAS. And, I have been doing SAS for almost 30 years. Long live COBOL (or for Galactica fans -- the Lords of [K]COBOL). I haven't written more than two programmes in COBOL in over 25 years, but I can see it's not going away. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
With TRUNC(STD), I put my money on the SYSLIT AT +4 being a binary fullword with 10**8 since the ST into MYDATA is storing the remainder of the divide. With TRUNC(BIN), this is consistent w/the behaviour of IBM Enterprise COBOL for z/OS 3.4.1 not using any 64 bit-era instruction, e.g. relative addressing and halfword immediate. Since you show only R7 being stored, the A R6 is superfluous. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU wrote on 04/08/2008 02:25:14 PM: I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. John McKown - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. The information may also constitute a legally privileged confidential communication. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
Tom, I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was few and far between. But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of responded that they are developing new applications in COBOL. (Natural/adabas was 48%.) I was expecting a very low new development count. I'm planning on running the poll again in a few months to see if I can get a wider audience. (link http://www.cicsworld.com/node/198) Regards Ian http://www.cicsworld.com/ On 4/8/08, Tom Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; I just cannot resist responding to this (sorry I am so late, I was out of the office for 2 weeks). I work on the IBM COBOL compiler, and if you could see the amount of interest, the number of compiler licenses, the sheer number of COBOL programmers on IBM Mainframes doing new work everyday in COBOL, you would never say such a thing. For example, we are being overwhelmed with requests to continue our improvements for XML support in COBOL, it has been the most quickly adopted new feature of COBOL in my quarter century as an IBM COBOL compiler developer. COBOL is more alive today than it was 10 years ago! Demise indeed... Cheers, TomR COBOL is the Language of the Future! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Ian http://www.cicsworld.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:25:14 -0500, McKown, John wrote: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. John, When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even further: ASI MYDATA,1 http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dz9zr006.pdf Regards, Roger Bowler Hercules the people's mainframe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Ian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, I was also under the impression that new development on the mainframe was few and far between. But I ran a poll a while ago and the results was rather surprising. 28% of responded that they are developing new applications in COBOL. (Natural/adabas was 48%.) I was expecting a very low new development count. Yep, I am working on one right now. However, since our major legacy systems are being shoehorned into a COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) package, it might be the last one for a while. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Roger Bowler wrote: John, When you get your nice new z10 you will be able to simplify it even further: ASI MYDATA,1 http://publibfp.boulder.ibm.com/epubs/pdf/dz9zr006.pdf Regards, Wishful thinking. Managements avowed purpose in life for 3 separate administrations has been to eliminate the mainframe. How varies, but the desire to do so does not. deleting two paragraphs to avoid immediate termination for insubordination -- Q: What do theoretical physicists drink beer from? A: An EIN stein. Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: (fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? Try TRUNC(OPT), you will get: LH2,14(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 A 2,0(0,8)MYDATA ST2,0(0,8)MYDATA See the COBOL Performance Tuning paper at http://www- 306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/cobol/library/ for more info on the TRUNC compiler option, as well as the performance implications of using the various suboptions of TRUNC. Rick Arellanes (IBM COBOL Development and Performance) On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 13:25:14 -0500, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, I gotta ask this, hope you don't mind. Why is the code generation for fullword binary so weird? I have: 77 MYDATA PIC S9(8) BINARY. .. ADD +1 TO MYDATA The code generated is terrible (to me): L 6,0(0,2)MYDATA SRDA 6,32(0) LH0,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 SRDA 0,32(0) AR6,0 ALR 7,1 BC12,164(0,11)GN=17(0002D8) A 6,0(0,12) SYSLIT AT +0 GN=17EQU * ST7,0(0,2)MYDATA Why is COBOL doing 64 bit arithmetic? Why the BC around the A when the contents of register 6 are ignored? This is with TRUNC(BIN). With TRUNC(STD), I get: LH7,22(0,10) PGMLIT AT +10 (halfword H'1') A 7,0(0,2)MYDATA LR6,7 SRDA 6,32(0) D 6,4(0,12) SYSLIT AT +4 ST6,0(0,2)MYDATA which is much better, but still confusing. In my own code, a simple: L 6,MYDATA A 6,PLUS1 ST 6,MYDATA suffices. Or, going with what would be more similar to COBOL's code: LH 7,=H'+1' A 7,MYDATA ST 7,MYDATA what is with the SRDA and D? I cannot determine what SYSLIT+4 is because it looks like x'05F5E100' which makes NO sense to me. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
(fwd) Re: Is IT becoming extinct?
This probably was cross-posted to both comp.lang.cobol and bit.listserv.ibm-main. Pete Dashwood is a long time consultant who has CICS and COBOL experience. I don't necessarily agree with him but he does have many good insights. Clark Morris On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:54:55 +1300, in bit.listserv.ibm-main Pete Dashwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blogs.zdnet.com/projectfailures/?p=666 (Not from where I'm standing - but I might not be standing the right place) I have been saying similar things for some time. The arrogance of IT alienated it from the rest of the organization... (I believe this was a major factor in the demise of COBOL; users just got pissed of with being treated like crap and grabbed any alternate solutions (packages, outsourcing, SaaS) as soon as they became available. Added to this, you have a rising generation who are much more computer literate than their parents were and are quite cappable of devising their own (albeit, imperfect and disintegrated from an IT perspective) solutions with spreadsheets and databases. The resulting chaos is what we're seeing today. Getting a hold on this and integrating disparate IT operations throughout the company so that a coherent picture can be derived is a large part of what some IT departments are doing. This represents a shift in IT away from technical service and into management of information. the role of the Technocrats is being ever diminished.) The split between the Business and IT has always been a contrived one. Agile methodologies recognise this and are successfully (re-)combining the two. Is IT becoming extinct? Depends what you mean by IT... I don't think IT is becoming extinct (yet...) but the need for businesses to develop in-house IT applications is definitely under threat. There are many alternatives and some companies are getting really good value from dropping their IT departments. It is MUCH cheaper to simply buy the service than to do it yourself. In-house IT development is expensive (prohibitively so if you insist on using procedural languages like COBOL with line-by-line hand carved solutions...embedding your business into millions of lines of archaic geek-code), and nobody likes the IT department anyway... they consistently treat people who are not technical with condescension and arrogance and are not exactly warm and friendly when you need an IT service. Their track record is abysmal, and most of the organisation would be very glad to see the back of them. Why would you go to IT. cap in hand, when the new students in your department can knock you up a desktop solution in a day or so that is exactly what you need? The role of the in-house IT department to develop and provide services will definitely be taken out of the corporate environment and relegated to a handful of software companies. Long term, the Nirvana is for people to interact with, and utilise the power of, computers, without requiring specialist knowledge or interfaces or go-betweens (like the Priests of COBOL). When this is attained (and it is still a fair way off, although steps are made towards it every year...) THEN you could say IT was extinct. Meantime, there are ASPECTS of IT which certainly are becoming, or even have become extinct. Have you heard anyone discussing EDP recently? Pete. -- I used to write COBOL...now I can do anything. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
