Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database if nuked
efinnel...@aol.com (Ed Finnell) writes: Thanks for getting us back on track. We used to drift to old hardware and microfiche. Now we drift to polymorphism...sign of the times re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#12 Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database if nuked for the fun of it, from (linkedin) Mainframe Experts thread Has anyone successfully migrated off mainframes: http://lnkd.in/2syFGU -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked
In CAPD5F5q14Cf+DXY3KF7hV7TGqt1S9irb5-EHdBEFJHTd89S=c...@mail.gmail.com, on 10/18/2011 at 12:29 PM, John Gilmore johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com said: I would not write a program that had embedded in it the heroic assumption that a time value was a time value for some current day (bad) and time zone (worse), and I do not really think that Shmuel would do so either. The assumption that the time a user keyed in is meant as his local time is hardly heroic, and if a user typed in a request to do something at a specific time I wouldn't demand that he type in the date. Computer-system 'human interfaces', on the other hand, must be explicit and as unambiguous as we can make them. Unambiguous, yes. Explicit, no. Computers should work for us, not vice versa. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked.
In capd5f5q2nw-nhit9llsjjlzyokg0av_q-whbywxv09nbwpp...@mail.gmail.com, on 10/17/2011 at 09:01 PM, John Gilmore johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com said: I am puzzled by this distinction. In general there is no way to convert a time value in a date-independent way; There is a simple way; a raw time value refers to the current day. It is not, of course, suitable for use in files that must be read on a different day, but it is perfectly appropriate for use in human interfaces. You know this. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked
In response to my query Shmuel wrote: | There is a simple way; a raw time value refers to the current day. It | is not, of course, suitable for use in files that must be read on a | different day, but it is perfectly appropriate for use in human | interfaces. You know this. I do indeed know it. To my wife on the telephone, I may well say, I'll be back at 10:30 or the like. Such statements are insulated from date and time-zone ambiguity because they are local and ephemeral. I would not write a program that had embedded in it the heroic assumption that a time value was a time value for some current day (bad) and time zone (worse), and I do not really think that Shmuel would do so either. The problem here is that 'human interfaces' are not all of a piece, and Shmuel knows this. My interface with my wife of 51 years admits of telegraphic brevity and much apparent but not in fact substantive ambiguity. Computer-system 'human interfaces', on the other hand, must be explicit and as unambiguous as we can make them. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked
John, I agree but it#39;s not so cut and dried. When you live and work in two different time zones. Chicago and Indiana (parts) are in two different zones. Friends of mine get their signals mixed at times. They have taken to always specify the local time which works well except the first week or so of daylight savings. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database if nuked
I'm aware that the time/date reply is no longer necessary, and I certainly blame Microsoft more than DST for its attitude in the timestamp problem, but I've always said that if you don't like IBM, try the competition. I accept Mr. Gilmartin's advice to 'try and accommodate it' as well- meant. I do accommodate it, but I have a Dr. Seuss relationship to it: I do not like green eggs and ham... I would not like them here or there. I would not like them anywhere. I do not like green eggs and ham I indicated why I don't like DST, but I don't kid myself that I can change it. I do not suspect any conspiracy. BUT, popular opinion can be very wrong, and bad ideas can take root and become difficult to dislodge. One only has to look at the post-reconstruction racism in the South, the Japanese detention camps during World War II, and the insanity of the McCarthy era. I don't equate DST to these evils, but I can still speak my mind (hoping that what I say is not personally hurtful). Ken Brick's reference to the situation in Australia reminds me of the situation that existed in Indiana until a couple of years ago. Because of compliance vs. non-compliance with DST, and the differences between the eastern and western parts of the state with regard to economic centers in different time zones, the situation was so confused that there was a web page entitled What time is it in Indiana?. I also in my earlier note indicated that we enjoyed the lack of DST in Arizona, but that's not totally true. DST is observed on the Indian reservations in Arizona, which caused us some difficulty and embarrassment on a trip from Prescott to Denver. Dale Miller -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 20:06:43 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: In 4e9604fd.50...@ync.net, on 10/12/2011 at 04:22 PM, Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net said: One of the justifications (?) we had here in Illinois was so that school children would not be in transit to/from school during darkness hours. Changing school hours twice a year would solve that. I fail to see how. The argument, if it has indeed been made, is absurd. The length of daylight is the longest at the start of summer and shortest at the start of winter. If there is a concern with children going to school or returning home in the dark, that situation is worst at the beginning of winter. The time is adjusted during the summer though, when there is ample daylight before and after school. Extending summer time to November increases the likelihood of children going to school in the dark. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database if nuked
a couple references (internet time zone database) ICANN rescues time zone database http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/16/icann_rescues_time_zone_database/ http://lxnews.org/2011/10/17/icann-taking-over-olson-db/ http://news.softpedia.com/news/ICANN-Takes-Over-Time-Zone-Database-Crucial-to-the-Internet-After-Copyright-Lawsuit-228060.shtml http://www.circleid.com/posts/20111014_icann_to_manage_internet_time_zone_database/ ICANN reference http://www.icann.org/ Wiki overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN for some drift, IETF Editor (publishes internet standards) function has also been at USC ISI (picture in above). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Engineering_Task_Force For a long time it was Postel http://www.postel.org/postel.html Jon use to let me do part of (IETF) STD1 and periodically I would go by USC ISI to visit him -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked
Tom Marchant is entirely correct. Arguments for Daylight Time--as in Eastern Daylight Time, EDT---that play on school children and darkness are at once specious and disingenuous. They are nevertheless made because they are judged more presentable/persuasive than more cogent arguments in which an additional after-work hour for golf or tennis figure instead. Daylight [Savings] Time arguments, pro and contra, have always been characterized by nonsense, some of it amusing but almost none of it disinterested; and we are replicating these time-worn ritual controversies here on IBM-MAIN. The only notable omissis, so far anyway, has been an appeal to the welfare of the cows and chickens, whose putative inability to adjust to daylight time used to figure prominently in arguments against it. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 5673187431278464.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on
10/16/2011
at 03:15 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
It never switch[es].
How do you define switch.
TZ specifies a formula for converting system clock
values to civil time values.
That formula includes start and stop dates.
That formula will be exactly the same a month
from today as it is today.
The formula
TZ=EST5EDT,3,2,0,7200,11,1,0,7200,3600
will not change. The output for a given input, however, will change. I
call that a switch.
Given identical inputs, it will yield identical
outputs next month as now.
Not unless you ignore everything after the first field.
BTW, I've been looking at the description of the STCKCONV macro I
see no mention of a ZONE={LOCAL|GMT} parameter. Does it lack one?
A quick look at the macro definition should answer that.
RCF time?
Il va sans dire!
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
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Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 4080858463297668.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@bama.ua.edu, on 10/17/2011 at 08:53 AM, Tom Marchant m42tom-ibmm...@yahoo.com said: I fail to see how. Think about it. The argument, if it has indeed been made, is absurd. The fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean that it is absurd. The length of daylight is the longest at the start of summer and shortest at the start of winter. Water is wet. The time is adjusted during the summer though, when there is ample daylight before and after school. What does that have to do with my proposal? Extending summer time to November increases the likelihood of children going to school in the dark In other words, you read a criticism of DST as a defense of DST. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database if nuked
Thanks for getting us back on track. We used to drift to old hardware and microfiche. Now we drift to polymorphism...sign of the times In a message dated 10/17/2011 9:42:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, l...@garlic.com writes: a couple references (internet time zone database) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:11:48 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
on 10/16/2011 at 03:15 PM, Paul Gilmartin said:
It never switch[es].
How do you define switch.
To perform semiannually some particular action which (only) some OSes
require to accommodate the Daylight Time changes, such as
o Issuing a command (manually or by MGCR) to set the local time
o (Re)setting the system clock.
o IPLing to set the system clock.
o Shutting down for an hour to accommodate such changes.
The need to do such things is not Divinely ordained; it's merely
a misconception of people whose minds have been warped by
excessive exclusive exposure to Windows and/or MVS.
TZ specifies a formula for converting system clock
values to civil time values.
That formula includes start and stop dates.
Yes.
That formula will be exactly the same a month
from today as it is today.
The formula
TZ=EST5EDT,3,2,0,7200,11,1,0,7200,3600
ITYM TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:0
will not change. The output for a given input, however, will change. I
call that a switch.
It will not change.
Given identical inputs, it will yield identical
outputs next month as now.
Not unless you ignore everything after the first field.
I'm incredulous. I wrote the following test program:
user@MVS:138$ cat ../source/timepair.c
/* Doc: investigate behavior of time conversion functions for
identical time zone settings and inputs before and after
the Daylight Time change.
*/
#include stdlib.h
#include time.h
#include stdio.h
#include string.h
#define ZONE EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:00
void ShowIt( time_t secs ) {
struct tm L;
char s[ 100 ];
strftime( s, 99, %Y %b-%d %T %Z, localtime( secs ) );
printf(%s\n, s ); }
int main( void ) {
char *tz=malloc( strlen( ZONE ) + 4 );
strcpy( tz, TZ= );
putenv( strcat( tz, ZONE ) );
ShowIt( 131880 ); /* Sometime in October, 2011. */
ShowIt( 131880 + 31 * 86400 ); /* One month later.*/
}
Which produces the output:
user@MVS:139$ ./timepair
2011 Oct-16 17:20:00 EDT
2011 Nov-16 16:20:00 EST
I'm confident that next month, with Daylight Time no longer in effect, it will
produce identical outputs given the same inputs ( 131880 and
131880 + 31 * 86400 );
If you believe otherwise, I'll run it again next month to verify.
-- gil
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Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 5428902190334650.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on 10/17/2011 at 03:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said: To perform Perhaps I should have asked you to define it. ITYM TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:0 Well, the one I quoted works on the system I'm using it on. I wrote the following test program: Which seems to be testing something other than what we were discussing. Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date rather than the conversion of time. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 17:21:22 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: on 10/17/2011 at 03:17 PM, Paul Gilmartin said: To perform Perhaps I should have asked you to define it. ITYM TZ=EST5EDT,M3.2.0/02:00:00,M11.1.0/02:00:0 Well, the one I quoted works on the system I'm using it on. I wrote the following test program: Which seems to be testing something other than what we were discussing. Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date rather than the conversion of time. Water contains hydrogen. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked.
Shmuel wrote: . . . Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date rather than the conversion of time. I am puzzled by this distinction. In general there is no way to convert a time value in a date-independent way; this date dependence is aggravated when daylight | summer | official times are in play; and Shmuel knows this. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked.
John, He may be using another calendar than Gragorian. I am guessing here. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked
I think Shmuel would have specified that he was thinking about, say, the Hebrew lunisolar calendar. For it in its traditional form there is a minor complication. Its day is divided into 24 hours like that of the Gregorian calendar; but there are neither minutes nor seconds. Instead each hour is divided into 1080 halaqim, one of which is 3.5 seconds in length. Apart from the use of this different unit, which poses no real difficulties, conversion from one calendar to another is not problematic. One converts an HCD into Gregorian days and then converts this GD value into a GCD and vice versa. (One could instead use Hebrew days, HDs, defined them as the number of elapsed days since the Hebrew-calendar epoch origin, the Gregorian date of which is -3730 September 7; but the results obtained would be the same. It all goes very nicely in fullword binary integer arithmetic.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after UNIX time-zone database is nuked.
The local time zone is dependent upon location and date. On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:01 PM, John Gilmore johnwgilmore0...@gmail.com wrote: Shmuel wrote: . . . Specifically, you are testing the conversion of time and date rather than the conversion of time. I am puzzled by this distinction. In general there is no way to convert a time value in a date-independent way; this date dependence is aggravated when daylight | summer | official times are in play; and Shmuel knows this. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:18:52 -0700, Dale Miller wrote: I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people through the years, I've encountered a few who really like DST. I think most people just go with the flow, but a lot of people didn't like the hasseles. Why, then, is DST so prevalent? Have you a conspiracy theory? Someone to blame? It's hard to believe that legislative bodies in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their constituents' concerns. Further, a recent article in Scientific American raised serious questions about the assertion of energy savings from DST, and pointed out health issues associated with the time changes, and called DST an idea we can do without. Yes, there's a divergence of opinions. ... my daughter works in auditing in a company which has many processes involving Windows-based processors and instruments, and they recently discovered that time stamps on data recorded during the DST period are displayed one hour off during the non-DST part of the year. Microsoft apparently has no plans to correct the issue. Surely that's as much an argument for eliminating Microsoft from IT operations as for eliminating DST. Alas, I doubt you have the clout to enforce either. I don't much take sides here. But as this list so often admonishes me on other topics, DST is a fact of life. You may struggle to change it, but in the meantime, it's wise to attempt to accommodate it. set the wrong Date/Time to a date in the future, whereupon, most of our third-party software promptly decided we were out of license. When the IPL failed, the systems staff were rousted out of bed and lost a lot of sleep. Isn't that automated in z/OS nowadays; no need for operator intervention? And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't exist. There's simply a formula that for any given locale converts system time (UTC) over a wide range to civil time. The technique exists; z/OS would do well to embrace it in the legacy context as well as in the UNIX. And a colleague writes me: https://lwn.net/Articles/463143/ It's back at a new location. You just can't keep a good database down :) becky http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/ -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 01:27:18 -0500 Paul Gilmartin wrote: ... It's hard to believe that legislative bodies in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their constituents' concerns. Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
... It's hard to believe that legislative bodies in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their constituents' concerns. Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. I have no idea what Shane means, here. - Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca Twitter: @TedMacNEIL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On 16/10/2011 18:06 PM, Shane wrote: Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. Shane ... Now, now, Shane, Coming from a part of this great land that refuses to recognise some of the benefits of daylight saving. I remember a holiday in Brisbane being woken by my 18mth. son at 5:00 because it was light outside. In enlightened parts it would have been 6:00 a much more civilised time. PS. I would agree that in northern climes there is little need for daylight saving but the excuse of 2 time zones within a state not working is a falacy. Many business (mainly financial) in both Perth and Brisbane run on daylight savings. Also a little known fact is that officially eastern West Australia is a different time zone to western West Australia, It is just ignored by every one Ken -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ken Brick On 16/10/2011 18:06 PM, Shane wrote: Whoa - hold on there gil !!!. Drawing a *very* long bow there. Shane ... Now, now, Shane, Coming from a part of this great land that refuses to recognise some of the benefits of daylight saving. I remember a holiday in Brisbane being woken by my 18mth. son at 5:00 because it was light outside. In enlightened parts it would have been 6:00 a much more civilised time. So let sunrise equal sonrise. Problem solved. :-) -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
http://www.thedailyparker.com/CommentView,guid,bded3439-6019-4389-93a3-29af6597d43a.aspx#commentstart (For example, in some cases a hospital would record birth times using Standard Time while the surrounding city was on Daylight Time.) Sounds like you need to consult with each computer owner. On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 1:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:18:52 -0700, Dale Miller wrote: I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people through the years, I've encountered a few who really like DST. I think most people just go with the flow, but a lot of people didn't like the hasseles. Why, then, is DST so prevalent? Have you a conspiracy theory? Someone to blame? It's hard to believe that legislative bodies in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their constituents' concerns. Further, a recent article in Scientific American raised serious questions about the assertion of energy savings from DST, and pointed out health issues associated with the time changes, and called DST an idea we can do without. Yes, there's a divergence of opinions. ... my daughter works in auditing in a company which has many processes involving Windows-based processors and instruments, and they recently discovered that time stamps on data recorded during the DST period are displayed one hour off during the non-DST part of the year. Microsoft apparently has no plans to correct the issue. Surely that's as much an argument for eliminating Microsoft from IT operations as for eliminating DST. Alas, I doubt you have the clout to enforce either. I don't much take sides here. But as this list so often admonishes me on other topics, DST is a fact of life. You may struggle to change it, but in the meantime, it's wise to attempt to accommodate it. set the wrong Date/Time to a date in the future, whereupon, most of our third-party software promptly decided we were out of license. When the IPL failed, the systems staff were rousted out of bed and lost a lot of sleep. Isn't that automated in z/OS nowadays; no need for operator intervention? And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't exist. There's simply a formula that for any given locale converts system time (UTC) over a wide range to civil time. The technique exists; z/OS would do well to embrace it in the legacy context as well as in the UNIX. And a colleague writes me: https://lwn.net/Articles/463143/ It's back at a new location. You just can't keep a good database down :) becky http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/ -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
First: it has an expired certificate. Second: it wants a sign on. Third: forget it! - Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca Twitter: @TedMacNEIL -Original Message- From: Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:19:30 To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked http://www.thedailyparker.com/CommentView,guid,bded3439-6019-4389-93a3-29af6597d43a.aspx#commentstart (For example, in some cases a hospital would record birth times using Standard Time while the surrounding city was on Daylight Time.) Sounds like you need to consult with each computer owner. On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 1:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:18:52 -0700, Dale Miller wrote: I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people through the years, I've encountered a few who really like DST. I think most people just go with the flow, but a lot of people didn't like the hasseles. Why, then, is DST so prevalent? Have you a conspiracy theory? Someone to blame? It's hard to believe that legislative bodies in so many countries are similarly clueless and heedless of their constituents' concerns. Further, a recent article in Scientific American raised serious questions about the assertion of energy savings from DST, and pointed out health issues associated with the time changes, and called DST an idea we can do without. Yes, there's a divergence of opinions. ... my daughter works in auditing in a company which has many processes involving Windows-based processors and instruments, and they recently discovered that time stamps on data recorded during the DST period are displayed one hour off during the non-DST part of the year. Microsoft apparently has no plans to correct the issue. Surely that's as much an argument for eliminating Microsoft from IT operations as for eliminating DST. Alas, I doubt you have the clout to enforce either. I don't much take sides here. But as this list so often admonishes me on other topics, DST is a fact of life. You may struggle to change it, but in the meantime, it's wise to attempt to accommodate it. set the wrong Date/Time to a date in the future, whereupon, most of our third-party software promptly decided we were out of license. When the IPL failed, the systems staff were rousted out of bed and lost a lot of sleep. Isn't that automated in z/OS nowadays; no need for operator intervention? And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't exist. There's simply a formula that for any given locale converts system time (UTC) over a wide range to civil time. The technique exists; z/OS would do well to embrace it in the legacy context as well as in the UNIX. And a colleague writes me: https://lwn.net/Articles/463143/ It's back at a new location. You just can't keep a good database down :) becky http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/ -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 5858366922818746.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on 10/16/2011 at 01:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said: And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't exist. Of course it exists; TZ specifies when to switch. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:39:24 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
In on 10/16/2011 at 01:27 AM, Paul Gilmartin said:
And in UNIX (POSIX) the concept of a semiannual change doesn't
exist.
Of course it exists; TZ specifies when to switch.
It never switch[es]. TZ specifies a formula for converting system clock
values to civil time values. That formula will be exactly the same a month
from today as it is today. Given identical inputs, it will yield identical
outputs next month as now.
BTW, I've been looking at the description of the STCKCONV macro
I see no mention of a ZONE={LOCAL|GMT} parameter. Does it lack
one? Why? In fact the doc appears not to clarify whether the result
is LOCAL or GMT, nor how leap second corrections are performed.
RCF time?
-- gil
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Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 4e9604fd.50...@ync.net, on 10/12/2011 at 04:22 PM, Rick Fochtman rfocht...@ync.net said: One of the justifications (?) we had here in Illinois was so that school children would not be in transit to/from school during darkness hours. Changing school hours twice a year would solve that. In my own observation, admittedly not all-encompassing, most business owners prefer to reset clocks rather than repaint signage. It's a simple matter to paint signs that are valid year around. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Conlin, Pete Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 3:51 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked Tom, snip Peter p.s. if I sound like an unrepentant Luddite, Amen. (Long live the slide rule!) Slide rule Abacus or death! -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 2390138243554086.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on 10/11/2011 at 10:25 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said: A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually than it would be to repaint their hours of operation on shop doors semiannually. Do you have any documentation for that claim? I'm not aware of any plebiscite or poll that supports it. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-snip-- A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually than it would be to repaint their hours of operation on shop doors semiannually. Do you have any documentation for that claim? I'm not aware of any plebiscite or poll that supports it. -unsnip- One of the justifications (?) we had here in Illinois was so that school children would not be in transit to/from school during darkness hours. Partly due to traffic risks and partly due to predator risks. In my own observation, admittedly not all-encompassing, most business owners prefer to reset clocks rather than repaint signage. Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
OK, somebody's gotta say it: Chaos feared...Unix -- how will anyone notice a difference? -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
I would have to dispute Paul Gilmartin's assertion that a majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise. I don't have a statistically-valid survey, but in discussing it with other people through the years, I've encountered a few who really like DST. I think most people just go with the flow, but a lot of people didn't like the hasseles. I think that if the transition times were changed to Monday AM from Sunday AM, so that businesses instead of churches suffered the impacts of the change. there would be huge pressure to get rid of it. Furthermore, in the Northern tier of states and Alaska, I found myself in Winter going to work or coming from work ( or both) in the dark, and in the light in the Summer, regardless of DST. Further, a recent article in Scientific American raised serious questions about the assertion of energy savings from DST, and pointed out health issues associated with the time changes, and called DST an idea we can do without. I no longer work in IT, even though I follow it, and I still despise DST. In fact, we recently moved from Arizona, where we were free of the annoyances of DST, to Washington State, where we have had to adjust to it all over again. My Mac's have no problems with it and my wife's Windoze can handle the changeover, but the 5 clocks and two watches in my home have to have special attention twice a year. As I mentioned in an earlier message, my daughter works in auditing in a company which has many processes involving Windows-based processors and instruments, and they recently discovered that time stamps on data recorded during the DST period are displayed one hour off during the non-DST part of the year. Microsoft apparently has no plans to correct the issue. As an aside, years ago, an operator who was functionally illiterate was hired (don't ask why) for our MVS system . He was allowed to be on duty alone (don't ask why) on the morning of the DST changeover. He set the wrong Date/Time to a date in the future, whereupon, most of our third-party software promptly decided we were out of license. When the IPL failed, the systems staff were rousted out of bed and lost a lot of sleep. Dale Miller -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Dale, Liked your story and some else here on the list had the same IPL issue, but if I recall correctly it was with RACF. Ask Rick F. For details. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
In 7117072478643339.wa.paulgboulderaim@bama.ua.edu, on 10/10/2011 at 09:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said: Sounds good in theory, but in practice, the will of the people, wise or otherwise, prevails. That will can't be overruled by the needs of IT. It's not just people in IT that hate DST. Your proposal, if implemented, would soon engender a semiannual switch between GMT and GMDT. That would be your proposal, not his. His proposal is to shift the work day by an hour twice a year without messing with the clock settings. Since it makes sense, Congress will never adopt it; I can't speak for the legislatures of other countries. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:30:28 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote: on 10/10/2011 at 09:13 AM, Paul Gilmartin said: Sounds good in theory, but in practice, the will of the people, wise or otherwise, prevails. That will can't be overruled by the needs of IT. It's not just people in IT that hate DST. Your proposal, if implemented, would soon engender a semiannual switch between GMT and GMDT. That would be your proposal, not his. His proposal is to shift the work day by an hour twice a year without messing with the clock settings. Since it makes sense, Congress will never adopt it; I can't speak for the legislatures of other countries. It matters little what he proposes, or who adopts the proposal. A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually than it would be to repaint their hours of operation on shop doors semiannually. It isn't all legislative tyranny sometimes with the objective of energy conservation; often with questionable effect. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:25:23 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote: A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually Interesting hypothesis. How did you determine that? -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Tom, There is a fair body of scientific evidence regarding the validity of circadian rhythms. I don't like clocks period, never mind having to reset them. (That only compounds the problem of clocks themselves.) I do like sunrise/sunset for my measure of time (at least on a daily basis, not living near the equator). On the other hand, standards are necessary (evils?) in order to do much of what we call business or commerce, at least on the support end. (Seems to have disappeared on most other fronts somehow, count your fingers after a handshake.) With the exception of sunrise/sunset mandates regarding headlights, access to parks or hunting laws, we see little use of this common sense measure of daily time. Personally, I suspect our children may see a continuous offset from GMT, possibly coupled with sunrise/sunset for a variety of new (to me, mostly ISO) standards. Peter p.s. if I sound like an unrepentant Luddite, Amen. (Long live the slide rule!) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 2:53 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:25:23 -0500, Paul Gilmartin wrote: A majority want to adjust their work hours to follow the sunrise, and they find it more convenient to reset their clocks semiannually Interesting hypothesis. How did you determine that? -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
At 09:28 -0500 on 10/10/2011, Paul Gilmartin wrote about Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked: In states such as Colorado which have a constitutional limit on the length of the legislative session, it's fairly common for the Speaker to order the Sergeant at Arms to stop the clock one minute before midnight in order to continue with urgent legislation. I likewise wonder what a defense lawyer would do with knowledge that a client was being prosecuted under a law passed in that Twilight Zone. Wouldn't (since the law was illegally passed out side of the time frame legislatively set for passing laws) that be was being pERsecuted under a law passed in that Twilight Zone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:35:36 -0400, Ed Finnell wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. That could work for locations in the USA. It would be no help at all in places where the time zone was changed for the benefit of a visiting foreign dignitary. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? lobby Convert all local schedules, etc. to GMT, or Zulu time. In Chicagoland, e.g., I'd go to work at 1200 and work until 2100 Zulu except during Daylight Saving time when I'd work from 1100 until 2000. /lobby It's not rocket science. -jc- On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Though I agree with you, at my first job - when I implemented OS/VS1 using GMT, I was nearly lynched by the Production Control people and Programmers. The print outs (remember them?) all said like: 20 Jan 1978 14:37 . When ask what the 14:37 meant, I said it was military time - subtract 12 if greater than 12. So it was 2:37 P.M. . They then said the clock was bad because it was really printed at 8:37. I said it was GMT so they had to adjust by the current 6 hour offset. I was then threatened with horrible torture if I didn't fix it to say 8:37 AM, because all this folderall was bs and the computer should report local time. Which confused me since this was city government and the court records were timestamped. And we could not stop processing during the fall back, so we had 1 hour of duplicate time stamps in court records. Which a defense lawyer would have __loved__ to know about should his client have been arrested during that hour. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets® 9151 Boulevard 26 . N. Richland Hills . TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone . john.mck...@healthmarkets.com . www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets® is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company®, Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Chase, John Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:14 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? lobby Convert all local schedules, etc. to GMT, or Zulu time. In Chicagoland, e.g., I'd go to work at 1200 and work until 2100 Zulu except during Daylight Saving time when I'd work from 1100 until 2000. /lobby It's not rocket science. -jc- On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:14:16 -0500, Chase, John wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? lobby Convert all local schedules, etc. to GMT, or Zulu time. In Chicagoland, e.g., I'd go to work at 1200 and work until 2100 Zulu except during Daylight Saving time when I'd work from 1100 until 2000. /lobby Sounds good in theory, but in practice, the will of the people, wise or otherwise, prevails. That will can't be overruled by the needs of IT. Your proposal, if implemented, would soon engender a semiannual switch between GMT and GMDT. It's not rocket science. No, it's politics. That's harder. On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 07:09:02 -0500, Tom Marchant wrote: On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:35:36 -0400, Ed Finnell wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. That could work for locations in the USA. It would be no help at all in places where the time zone was changed for the benefit of a visiting foreign dignitary. I believe China has a single time zone. But Chile has two. IIRC, in 1999 a certain Pacific island relocated itself from the western hemisphere to the eastern so it could be the first place in the world to experience the arrival of the 21st (by some naive reckoning) century. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote: ... Which confused me since this was city government and the court records were timestamped. And we could not stop processing during the fall back, so we had 1 hour of duplicate time stamps in court records. Which a defense lawyer would have __loved__ to know about should his client have been arrested during that hour. It may not much matter. The strongest legal concern is with statutes of limitations. But think curfews. And in Colorado, the legislated tavern closing time is 0200. I believe this is covered by specific legislation. In states such as Colorado which have a constitutional limit on the length of the legislative session, it's fairly common for the Speaker to order the Sergeant at Arms to stop the clock one minute before midnight in order to continue with urgent legislation. I likewise wonder what a defense lawyer would do with knowledge that a client was being prosecuted under a law passed in that Twilight Zone. Of course, the legislature's minutes wouldn't show it, but there's usually a journalist covering the session. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
I believe that in KY such a court case was brought to the state Supreme Court and any such laws were ruled invalid and unenforcable Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped! (Groucho Marx) Chris Hoelscher IDMS DB2 Database Administrator 502-476-2538 You only need to test the programs you don't want to get called on later -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:28 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote: ... Which confused me since this was city government and the court records were timestamped. And we could not stop processing during the fall back, so we had 1 hour of duplicate time stamps in court records. Which a defense lawyer would have __loved__ to know about should his client have been arrested during that hour. It may not much matter. The strongest legal concern is with statutes of limitations. But think curfews. And in Colorado, the legislated tavern closing time is 0200. I believe this is covered by specific legislation. In states such as Colorado which have a constitutional limit on the length of the legislative session, it's fairly common for the Speaker to order the Sergeant at Arms to stop the clock one minute before midnight in order to continue with urgent legislation. I likewise wonder what a defense lawyer would do with knowledge that a client was being prosecuted under a law passed in that Twilight Zone. Of course, the legislature's minutes wouldn't show it, but there's usually a journalist covering the session. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chris Hoelscher choelsc...@humana.com wrote: I believe that in KY such a court case was brought to the state Supreme Court and any such laws were ruled invalid and unenforcable Sorry, which laws? Ones passed during the one minute to midnight? Or some other aspect of this? Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped! (Groucho Marx) Great and apropos quote! -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Sorry - any laws passed during the fake 3-hour 1 1 minute before midnight timeframe were ruled as unenforcable Chris Hoelscher IDMS DB2 Database Administrator 502-476-2538 You only need to test the programs you don't want to get called on later -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of zMan Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:40 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Chris Hoelscher choelsc...@humana.com wrote: I believe that in KY such a court case was brought to the state Supreme Court and any such laws were ruled invalid and unenforcable Sorry, which laws? Ones passed during the one minute to midnight? Or some other aspect of this? Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped! (Groucho Marx) Great and apropos quote! -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John Though I agree with you, at my first job - when I implemented OS/VS1 using GMT, I was nearly lynched by the Production Control people and Programmers. The print outs (remember them?) all said like: 20 Jan 1978 14:37 . When ask what the 14:37 meant, I said it was military time . . . That was probably the big misteak, calling it military time rather than stating truthfully that (1) there are 24 hours in a day, so (2) 14:37 shows 37 minutes past the 14th hour. - subtract 12 if greater than 12. So it was 2:37 P.M. . They then said the clock was bad because it was really printed at 8:37. I said it was GMT so they had to adjust by the current 6 hour offset. I was then threatened with horrible torture if I didn't fix it to say 8:37 AM, because all this folderall was bs and the computer should report local time. [ snip ] Well, the CONgress legislated the U.S. onto the metric system circa 1980. That too seems to have gone over like a lead balloon. (But frequently in rush-hour traffic it seems the vehicle ahead is going 25 km/h instead of 25 mph. In a 40 mph zone, of course.) -jc- -- Q: Why do drivers chatting on cell phones have their heads up their ahems? A: They're using their ahems as 'hands-free devices'. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 08:38:16 -0500, McKown, John wrote: ... Which confused me since this was city government and the court records were timestamped. And we could not stop processing during the fall back, so we had 1 hour of duplicate time stamps in court records. Which a defense lawyer would have __loved__ to know about should his client have been arrested during that hour. It may not much matter. The strongest legal concern is with statutes of limitations. But think curfews. And in Colorado, the legislated tavern closing time is 0200. I believe this is covered by specific legislation. In states such as Colorado which have a constitutional limit on the length of the legislative session, it's fairly common for the Speaker to order the Sergeant at Arms to stop the clock one minute before midnight in order to continue with urgent legislation. I likewise wonder what a defense lawyer would do with knowledge that a client was being prosecuted under a law passed in that Twilight Zone. Of course, the legislature's minutes wouldn't show it, but there's usually a journalist covering the session. IANAL, but my guess is that a court would use the legislature's minutes as the official record of the proceedings, even if it were proved beyond any shadow of doubt that said minutes were corrupt. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
John, It must be nice to have a short time job, I haven#39;t work those hours in over 40 years. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/unix_time_zone_database_destroyed/ Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked Developer sued for copyright infringement ... I hereby call on the industry leaders to help sort this out, Colebourne wrote. IBM, Oracle, Apple, Google, RedHat I'm looking at you. Sigh. Lawyers. And astrologers. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
From what little I understand, it is not really the timezone information, per se. It was, supposedly, using copyrighted information for historical timezone information along with methods of determining the TZ for a given date and place. I'm not into astrology, but true believers in it are very exacting about when and where a person was born. So that they can precisely determine the stellar and planetary configuration as viewed at the instant of birth at the location of birth. The complaint is that the database illegally copied this information from their copyrighted and published information. On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 16:17 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote: For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- John McKown Maranatha! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
John, Please do not bring up the forbidden term (in any context)! A universal sidereal standard would come back to haunt the list forever! Ed - Original Message - From: John McKown joa...@swbell.net To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Cc: Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2011 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked From what little I understand, it is not really the timezone information, per se. It was, supposedly, using copyrighted information for historical timezone information along with methods of determining the TZ for a given date and place. I'm not into astrology, but true believers in it are very exacting about when and where a person was born. So that they can precisely determine the stellar and planetary configuration as viewed at the instant of birth at the location of birth. The complaint is that the database illegally copied this information from their copyrighted and published information. On Sat, 2011-10-08 at 16:17 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote: For the US. Each country sets it own time zones. In Australia, each state. Maybe we could get the UN or the Astronomical Union to keep track of time zones? On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: Seems like it ought to be a link from NOAA or Naval Observatory time. In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:23:24 A.M. Central Daylight Time, paulgboul...@aim.com writes: Unix time-zone database is nuked -- John McKown Maranatha! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
The point is the reference is gone! Zeller's congruence is an algorithmic establish of date and time but doesn't have all the offsets for each country. That's why I was advocating a 'standards group' to step up. In a message dated 10/8/2011 5:33:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, joa...@swbell.net writes: So that they can precisely determine the stellar and planetary configuration as viewed at the instant of birth at the location of birth. The complaint is that the database illegally copied this information from their copyrighted and published information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Chaos feared after Unix time-zone database is nuked
Can't set a standard, but need a log of time zones and what locations they covered. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Ed Finnell efinnel...@aol.com wrote: The point is the reference is gone! Zeller's congruence is an algorithmic establish of date and time but doesn't have all the offsets for each country. That's why I was advocating a 'standards group' to step up. In a message dated 10/8/2011 5:33:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, joa...@swbell.net writes: So that they can precisely determine the stellar and planetary configuration as viewed at the instant of birth at the location of birth. The complaint is that the database illegally copied this information from their copyrighted and published information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
