Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net (Shmuel Metz  , Seymour J.) writes:
> Yes, but could you enter macro invocations in the prefix area, or only
> predefined line commands? XEDIT had prefix macros and a SET PENDING
> command so that a prefix macro could insert macro invocations into the
> prefix areas, to be acted on at the next ENTER. Did EDGAR have an
> equivalent?

I hardly used EDGAR at all, using RED & NED (for files larger than
virtual memory size) ... so don't really know.  Something in the (edgar)
SOS description talks about pushing keystrokes for later invokation
... but I never got that intimate with EDGAR (whether or not that would
result in something similar)

past posts:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#30 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#34 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#41 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#42 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#44 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#49 CMS load module format

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net (Shmuel Metz  , Seymour J.) writes:
> That worked on more than the 3270 family; it also worked on the
> console[1] of the 360/168.
>
> [1] Compatible with nonthing except the consoles of the 360/85 and
> 370/165.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#30 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#34 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#41 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#42 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#44 CMS load module format

I had done something similar as undergraduate in the 60s with a 2250m1
vector graphics (aka channel attached) for cp67/cms. Lincoln Labs had
done a fortran subroutine 2250 driver library for cms ... and I borrowed
their code for the editor. 

this is 2250m4 (i.e. 2250m1 was 360 channel attached with controller,
for about the same price as 2250m1, you could get a 2250m4 which came
with a 1130 in the package ... in place of the controller box)
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/2250.html
another image of 2250
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/2250-ad.gif
360/91 had 2250 as operators terminal
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/36091.html

for other drift, cambridge science center (did virtual machines cp/40,
cp/67, lots of online applications, invented GML ... which later morphs
into SGML & HTML ... early performance work that turns into capacity
planning, bunch of other stuff)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

had 2250m4 (aka w/1130) and there was version of spacewars implemented
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edson_Hendricks

misc. past posts mentioning having modified cp67/cms editor to drive
2250-1 vector graphics:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#41 A word processor from 1960
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#22 When did full-screen come to VM/370?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#20 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just 
how powerful a machine was
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#22 Computer Terminal Design Over the 
Years
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#73 They Got Mail: Not-So-Fond Farewells
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005e.html#64 Graphics on the IBM 2260?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005k.html#22 Where should the type information be?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005n.html#45 Anyone know whether VM/370 EDGAR is 
still available anywhere?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006e.html#28 MCTS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#62 PC premiered 40 years ago to awed 
crowd
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#0 tty
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#13 An Interview with Watts Humphrey, 
Part 6: The IBM 360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#57 An Interview with Watts Humphrey, 
Part 6: The IBM 360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010j.html#11 Information on obscure text editors 
wanted
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#45 My first mainframe experience
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011j.html#4 Announcement of the disk drive (1956)

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 10/02/2011
   at 04:20 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler  said:

>what i remember was that in the above "typical screen layout" ... 
>was that prefix area was standard EDGAR feature

Yes, but could you enter macro invocations in the prefix area, or only
predefined line commands? XEDIT had prefix macros and a SET PENDING
command so that a prefix macro could insert macro invocations into the
prefix areas, to be acted on at the next ENTER. Did EDGAR have an
equivalent?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 10/01/2011
   at 09:53 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler  said:

>move to vm370/cms and 3270 ... the standard cms editor was updated to
>display a fullscreen of the file

That worked on more than the 3270 family; it also worked on the
console[1] of the 360/168.

[1] Compatible with nonthing except the consoles of the 360/85 and
370/165.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net (Shmuel Metz  , Seymour J.) writes:
> ITYM decent. Did EDGAR have prefix macros like XEDIT had?

xedit wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XEDIT

what i remember was that in the above "typical screen layout" ...  was
that prefix area was standard EDGAR feature and there was xedit macro
that would setup edgar look&feel (although i have some vague
recollection using edgar prefix area on the right rather than the left).

I found this (posted 20Nov89 from somebody at EARN/CEARN)
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=XEDITTXT&ft=MEMO

from above:

No special XEDIT setting other than my standard EDGAR (prefix on the
right so I can use the "next line" key, no scale/tabline nonsense, nulls
on, stay on, wrap on, case ignore, in other words, the opposite of most
XEDIT default settings :-) ).

... snip ...

old post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#23

references:

Historical Manuals CMS Reference (feb/mar 1984)
http://ukcc.uky.edu/ukccinfo/391/cmsref.html

from above:

XEDIT no longer supports EDGAR simulation mode, and the EDGAR and
ECOMMAND commands are no longer available.

... snip ...

i.e. drop support for EDGAR macro (ECOMMAND) syntax.

from long ago and far away:

Date: 06/29/81 21:40:38
To: wheeler
Fro: somebody austrailia

Re: RED -> XEDIT .. I haven't had too much trouble migrating to
XEDIT. My EDGAR stuff was easy. The NED stuff not so easy, but not too
hard (being restricted to getting the whole file in-storage can be quite
a restriction), but there's not much one can do about the lack of RED's
pattern-matching facilities .. that's a REAL pain!

Re: PARASITE .. on the weekend I had a chance to try the newest version
you sent me during (yet another) VM/SP test time .. I still have the
same problems with having to hit ENTER twice to get any action, and with
it dozing off in the middle of a lot of line-by-line output. It seems to
be not getting (or handling) the interrupts from CP. Didn't someone else
report a similar problem?

Any thoughts/comments on my input re CJNTEL and PARASITE last time
(re-sending after this VMSG)? Regards,

... snip ...

ned was one of the editor's mentioned in previous post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#41
that includes excerpt from edit comparison from old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email790606
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#26

NED was the most compute overhead of all the editors ... but NED also
included the ability to edit file larger than would fit in virtual
memory (as referenced in above).

PARASITE was small CMS terminal emulator application using the VM
logical device extensions (used by PVM) It had a companion routine
"STORY" that was terminal scripting application (both would run in CMS
transient area). old post with PARASITE/STORY references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35

followup post contains STORY for automatically loging into
RETAIN and retrieving PUT bucket
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#36

CJNTEL was an internal network online facility that allowed remote query
of name/phone for increasing parts of the corporation (had access to
online internal telephone books). some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#cjntel

VMSG was internal email client. An very early 0.x VMSG source version
was picked up by the PROFS group and used for their email client. When
the VMSG author contacted PROFS group and offerred them a much more
complete 1.0 source, the PROFS group attempted to get him fired (denying
that they were using VMSG). The whole thing quieted down after the VMSG
authored pointed out that every PROFS note in the world had his initials
in a non-displayed field. After that the source was restricted to two of
us (besides the VMSG author). misc. past posts mentioning VMSG:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#35 why is there an "@" key?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#46 Does the word "mainframe" still have 
a meaning?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#35 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#39 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#40 Newbie TOPS-10 7.03 question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#14 Mail system scalability (Was: Re: 
Itanium troubles)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#58 history of CMS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#4 HONE, , misc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#34 VSE (Was: Re: Refusal to change was 
Re: LE and COBOL)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004p.html#13 Mainframe Virus 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#43 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#44 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#4 Fast action games on System/360+?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006n.html#23 sorting was: The System/360 Model 20 
Wasn't As Bad As All That
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006t.html#42 The Future of CPUs: What's After 
Multi-Core?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#17 Jim Gray Is Missing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007f.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 10/01/2011
   at 06:30 PM, Ed Gould  said:

>EDGAR was deceit but I still preferred ISPF.

ITYM decent. Did EDGAR have prefix macros like XEDIT had?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

p...@voltage.com (Phil Smith) writes:
> Yeah, editors are definitely religion. But ISPF on VM sucked
> unequivocally just because of how fragile it was, due to how they
> implemented it - whether you liked the functionality or not, having to
> deal with it breaking all the time was horrible. And left a very bad
> taste in many VMers' mouths that may or may not have been deserved (he
> said, trying desperately to avoid the religious part of the
> argument!).

ISPF had a different VM issue involving the VM performance tools group
... misc. past posts mentioning tale told at share (i.e. diverting
funds from tools group into ISPF development):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#17 Where's all the VMers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#33 XEDIT on MVS
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005t.html#40 FULIST
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006k.html#50 TSO and more was: PDP-1
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009s.html#46 DEC-10 SOS Editor Intra-Line Editing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#6 Call for XEDIT freaks, submit ISPF 
requirements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010g.html#50 Call for XEDIT freaks, submit ISPF 
requirements
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010m.html#84 Set numbers off permanently
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011h.html#62 Do you remember back to June 23, 1969 
when IBM unbundled

past posts in this thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#30 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#34 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#41 CMS load module format

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Phil Smith]

Ed Finnell wrote:
>These things take on religious zeal pretty quickly. I was having a  pretty
>good tussle with the VMer's in our shop about ISPF under VM and  they wrote
>some real poison pen memos to the PHB's. Guess the silencer was  we did a
>little tour and they were all using Qedit or what ever it was called
>then(same vendor that did original Super Session) and ISPF development let you
>choose your editor in profile.

Yeah, editors are definitely religion. But ISPF on VM sucked unequivocally just 
because of how fragile it was, due to how they implemented it - whether you 
liked the functionality or not, having to deal with it breaking all the time 
was horrible. And left a very bad taste in many VMers' mouths that may or may 
not have been deserved (he said, trying desperately to avoid the religious part 
of the argument!).

I'm using ISPF now, and while I find a number of things about it frustrating, 
there are also neat things. And some fraction of the frustrations are just 
because my hands are trained to do XEDIT stuff after all these years. The other 
day, I did a FIND in KEDIT when I meant to do a LOCATE, so now I'm just 
confused!

(I also have Cygwin installed on Windows, which leaves me even more messed up 
as to what command is likely to work in any given environment, as I move among 
systems. I feel like Walter Matthau in House Calls, in which he says something 
like "There ought to be just one blood type. A. Or O. Doesn't really matter": 
there ought to be ONE command to do the same thing in all OSes!)

...phsiii

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Ed Finnell]

These things take on religious zeal pretty quickly. I was having a  pretty 
good tussle with the VMer's in our shop about ISPF under VM and  they wrote 
some real poison pen memos to the PHB's. Guess the silencer was  we did a 
little tour and they were all using Qedit or what ever it was called  
then(same vendor that did original Super Session) and ISPF development let you  
choose your editor in profile. 
 
 
In a message dated 10/1/2011 8:53:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
l...@garlic.com writes:

In one  case, there was comment from the Endicott edit release group that
it was  the "fault" of the author of one of these other editors that it
was more  robust and had more function than xedit ... and therefor it
should be his  responsibility to make all the enhancements to xedit (as
opposed to  releasing his editor).



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

li...@akphs.com (Phil Smith III) writes:
> Yes, Edgar was an add-on product. It was somewhat similar to XEDIT in
> a lot of ways. There were apparently a number of full-screen CMS
> editors inside IBM, but XEDIT is the one that got picked for VM/SP.

x-over from z/vm mailing list:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#36 CMS load module format

original cp67/cms edit worked somewhat more like unix sed ... where read
read original file as stream outputing to temp/work file and then would
ping back&forth between two temp/work files before replacing the
original file. a new editor was created that ran out of cms (virtual)
memory ... and the previous edit was renamed cedit (the new "edit" could
only handle files that would fit in virtual memory ... but cedit could
edit arbitrary large files ... larger than available memory).

move to vm370/cms and 3270 ... the standard cms editor was updated to
display a fullscreen of the file ... but retained command line
operation. EDGAR added fullscreen editing ... i.e. changes could be made
directly to data displayed on screen ... as well as other commands on
each line.

By the time of xedit, there were quite a few internal "full-screen"
editors that were quite robust and had large number of functions. I
had gotten involved in trying to justify one of these others as
alternative to xedit ... old post in ibm-main
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#26
that includees these old emails
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email781103
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email790606
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800311
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800312
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800429
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#email800501

In one case, there was comment from the Endicott edit release group that
it was the "fault" of the author of one of these other editors that it
was more robust and had more function than xedit ... and therefor it
should be his responsibility to make all the enhancements to xedit (as
opposed to releasing his editor).

this is trivial benchmark from Jun79 of various cms editors (giving
virtual & total cpu use for edit of same file):
EDIT CMSLIB MACLIB S   2.53/2.81
RED CMSLIB MACLIB S  (NODEF)   2.91/3.12
ZED CMSLIB MACLIB S5.83/6.52
EDGAR CMSLIB MACLIB S  5.96/6.45
SPF CMSLIB MACLIB S ( WHOLE )  6.66/7.52
XEDIT CMSLIB MACLIB S 14.05/14.88
NED CMSLIB MACLIB S   15.70/16.52

"EDIT" is the standard CMS edit ... all the other editors were
fullscreen and nearly all were more robust and except for "NED" was
significantly more efficient than XEDIT.

As an aside ... one of the above emails makes reference to sending me
tape for system distribution. One of my hobbies was creating,
distributing, and supporting highly enhanced operating systems for
internal use.

this old email mentions doing csc/vm for internal distribution:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#7

this old email makes some mention doing sjr/vm for internal distribution
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830709
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830711
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#email830711b
in this post
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007c.html#12

and then there were operations like HONE which would do world-wide
re-distributions for the HONE-clones all over the world ... misc.
past posts mentioning HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[zMan]

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Eric Bielefeld  wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I have a strong suggestion.  If you don't remember something clearly, don't
> post.  You're always saying "I think", or mentioning your "fuzzy memory". If
> you're not sure, don't post.  I have the same problem, and if I'm not sure
> of my facts, I don't post, or I look it up.

Wow. We're discussing history here. As noted, 40 years is a long time;
his post may well jog  others' memories.

There are a number of frequent offenders who would do well not to
"contribute". Ed isn't one of them. You don't like his posts,
unsubscribe or learn to use a killfile.

You might also learn to use email -- a comment like yours would be
better sent privately.
-- 
zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <201109291802.p8ti2a7x001...@dave.dignus.com>, on 09/29/2011
   at 02:02 PM, Thomas David Rivers  said:

>Can anyone point me to a description of the CMS non-relocatable load
>module format?

For Virtual Machine Facility/370, but not for any of the chargeable
versions.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<985915eee6984740ae93f8495c624c6c21dc349...@jscpcwexmaa1.bsg.ad.adp.com>,
on 09/30/2011
   at 08:52 AM, "Farley, Peter x23353" 
said:

>There is no version of XEDIT available in any form (or wasn't the
>last time I checked, anyway).  XEDIT only came with VM/SP2 and up, I
>believe.

That's correct. There is a clone, but AFAIK The Hessling Editor (THE)
won't run on Virtual Machine Facility/370.

>IIRC there is no easy FTP in or out of VM/370.  Your only real
>transfer capability is the VM/370 system reader and punch. 

RSCS[1]. You need a CTCA or BSC link to use it.

[1] Can only handle print and punch files, alas. However, you
mentioned a couple of programs that can transoform files
into card images.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Eric Bielefeld]

Ed,

I have a strong suggestion.  If you don't remember something clearly, don't 
post.  You're always saying "I think", or mentioning your "fuzzy memory". 
If you're not sure, don't post.  I have the same problem, and if I'm not 
sure of my facts, I don't post, or I look it up.


Eric Bielefeld
Sr. Systems Programmer

- Original Message - 
From: "Ed Gould" 



Phil,

We had vm on a 4331 for testing. I "think" we had Edgar (40 years) is I 
long time to remember. My fuzzy memory was that it came with the IPO. IBM 
had xedit in the IBM Ed centers and there were enough differences at times 
I would swear at the 3270. Then on top of that DOSVSE Had it's own editor 
which was just plain bad.


EDGAR was deceit but I still preferred ISPF.

Ed 


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Ed Gould]

Phil,

We had vm on a 4331 for testing. I "think" we had Edgar (40 years) is I long 
time to remember. My fuzzy memory was that it came with the IPO. IBM had xedit 
in the IBM Ed centers and there were enough differences at times I would swear 
at the 3270. Then on top of that DOSVSE Had it's own editor which was just 
plain bad.

EDGAR was deceit but I still preferred ISPF.

Ed





On Sep 30, 2011, at 9:42 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Stephen Powell wrote:
>> Yes, I remember that.  But there was a full-screen 3270 editor similar to
>> XEDIT available with VM/370 release 6 called EDGAR.  I think it was
>> an add-on product.  I don't think it was part of VM/370.
> 
> Yes, Edgar was an add-on product. It was somewhat similar to XEDIT in a lot 
> of ways. There were apparently a number of full-screen CMS editors inside 
> IBM, but XEDIT is the one that got picked for VM/SP.
> 
> ...phsiii
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
> Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Phil Smith III]

Stephen Powell wrote:
>Yes, I remember that.  But there was a full-screen 3270 editor similar to
>XEDIT available with VM/370 release 6 called EDGAR.  I think it was
>an add-on product.  I don't think it was part of VM/370.

Yes, Edgar was an add-on product. It was somewhat similar to XEDIT in a lot of 
ways. There were apparently a number of full-screen CMS editors inside IBM, but 
XEDIT is the one that got picked for VM/SP.

...phsiii

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Thomas David Rivers]

Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:


riv...@dignus.com (Thomas David Rivers) writes:
 


Can anyone point me to a description of the CMS non-relocatable
load module format?  I can't seem to find it anywhere...
(i.e. the output of the CMS GENMOD command.)
   



old/original ... part of vm370/cms release 6 dmsmod assemble file from
hercules/cbttape distribution (more detailed information in actual
source):

* GENMOD ISSUES THE START (NO) COMMAND TO FINISH LOADING OF 00116000
 



Thanks Lynn!

 I was able to locate the DMSMOD source you reference
there... on reading that, I see that the format is an 80-byte
record, which contains 80 bytes from the NUCON starting
at the STRTADDR offset.

 Then, you have 'n' records; each up to 65535 bytes in length
that are the bytes of the module.  Presumably the difference
between BEGINNING ADDRESS and ENDING ADDRESS from the
NUCON describe how many bytes that is (and, there is no
possibility of a short record.)

 Following those bytes, there is the optional loader-table.

 Just thought I would lay this out in case somene in the future
was curious.

   Thanks again for the pointer!

   - Dave Rivers -


--
riv...@dignus.comWork: (919) 676-0847
Get your mainframe programming tools at http://www.dignus.com

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Phil Smith III]

Farley, Peter wrote, in part:
>There is no version of XEDIT available in any form (or wasn't the last time
I checked, anyway).  XEDIT only came with VM/SP2 and up, I believe.

VM/SP Release 1. Not that it matters, but the gods of historical correctness
must be appeased!

...phsiii

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

peter.far...@broadridge.com (Farley, Peter x23353) writes:
> IIRC there is no easy FTP in or out of VM/370.  Your only real
> transfer capability is the VM/370 system reader and punch.  The VMARC
> format (like XMIT) packages text in 80-byte records and can be
> transmitted back and forth using reader and punch.  There are both MVS
> 3.8 and VM/370 versions of VMARC, so files created in MVS 3.8 can be
> transmitted back and forth with VM/370.  There is also a VM/370 dump
> command which writes files to the punch, but I forget the output
> format that it uses.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#30 CMS load module format

... note lots of os/360 (&/or mvs) applications/compilers were ported to
CMS  by implementing simulation of os/360 access method services (on
cms filesystem, this is different from simulation of os/360 access
method services on real mvs disks mentioned below).

CMSSEG was introduced in vm370 release 3 with DCSS (a very small subset
of my paged-mapped filesystem and virtual memory management changes
mentioned below). OS simulation should be in CMSSEG (there was joke
about 32kbyte OS/360 simulation code in CMSSEG was much more cost
effective OS/360 simulation than the 8mbyte OS/360 simulation in MVS).
this has discussion about standard hercules distribution and whether
cmsseg definition is in conflict with the cms virtual machine size
you are using:
http://osdir.com/ml/emulators.hercules390.vm/2003-11/msg00132.html

"disk dump/load" was one of the original cms (when it was cambridge
monitor system on cp67 ... before morph to vm370 and name change to
conversational monitor system) commands from mid-60s. The original CMS
filesystem formated disks into 800-byte fixed length physical records
(early form of FBA). a similar gimick (temporary changing file format to
800-byte fixed-length records) was also used by the cms tape dump/load
application ... but physical 800-byte blocks on tape.

from dmsdsk (also from vm370 release 6)
*DUMP:   DISK COPIES  THE  FILE  DESIGNATION FROM  THE  00096000
*PARAMETER  LIST INTO  BYTES  58 -  76  OF AN  89-BYTE  00097000
*BUFFER. (THE FIRST  FOUR BYTES OF THE  BUFFER CONTAIN  00098000
*ANIDENTIFIERCONSISTING   OFANINTERNAL  00099000
*REPRESENTATION OF  A 12-2-9 PUNCH AND  THE CHARACTERS  0010
*'CMS'.)   THENDISK   TEMPORARILYCHANGES   THE  00101000
*CHARACTERISTICS OF THE FILE IN  THE 40-BYTE FST ENTRY  00102000
*TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS  A FILE OF 800-BYTE FIXED-LENGTH  00103000
*RECORDS.  (THE CORRECT FST ENTRY IS RESTORED WHEN THE  00104000
*FILE HAS  BEEN DUMPED,  OF COURSE.)   DISK MOVES  THE  00105000
*INITIAL VALUE FOR SEQUENCING   00106000
*(001)  INTO BYTES  77-80 OF  THE  BUFFER.  DISK  NEXT  00107000
*CALLS THE DMSBRD FUNCTION  00108000
*PROGRAM TO READ  THE FIRST 50 BYTES  OF THE TEMPORARY  00109000
*COPY INTO  0011
*BYTES 6-55 OF THE BUFFER AND THEN THE DMSCIO FUNCTION  00111000
*PROGRAM TO PUNCH   00112000
*THE CONTENTS OF THE BUFFER.  HAVING PUNCHED THE FIRST  00113000
*CARD,  DISK  INCREMENTS THE  SEQUENCE  NUMBER  (BYTES  00114000
*77-80 OF THE  OUTPUT BUFFER) AND OVERLAYS  BYTES 6-55  00115000
*OF THE BUFFER WITH THE NEXT 50 BYTES OF THE FILE   00116000
*BY CALLING DMSBRD.   IT THEN PUNCHES THE  CONTENTS OF  00117000
*THE00118000
*BUFFER.DISK  REPEATS   THIS   PROCESS  FOR   EACH  00119000
*SUBSEQUENT 50  BYTES OF  DATA IN  THE TEMPORARY  DISK  0012
*FILE.   WHEN  THE END-OF-FILE  IS  ENCOUNTERED,  DISK  00121000
*GENERATES AN  END CARD (ONE WITH  N IN COLUMN  5) AND  00122000
*PUNCHES IT,00123000
*CALLS THE CP CLOSE COMMAND TO CLOSE PUNCH  00124000

... snip ...

During the FS period ... some past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

lots of 370 development (both software & hardware) was cut back all over
the company. with the failure of FS ... there was mad rush to get stuff
back into the 370 product pipelines. This was motivation for picking up
a lot of 370 stuff I had been doing all during the FS period for vm370
release 3 ... some old email related to converting & enhancing bunch of
stuff from cp67 to vm370:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750430

and then additional

Re: CMS load module format

[Farley, Peter x23353]

Bernd,

There is a pretty active Yahoo group for help with Hercules problems to which 
you should direct your questions:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/

And there is one for VM/370 too:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hercules-VM370/

However, I can answer one or two of your questions:

There is no version of XEDIT available in any form (or wasn't the last time I 
checked, anyway).  XEDIT only came with VM/SP2 and up, I believe.

IIRC there is no easy FTP in or out of VM/370.  Your only real transfer 
capability is the VM/370 system reader and punch.  The VMARC format (like XMIT) 
packages text in 80-byte records and can be transmitted back and forth using 
reader and punch.  There are both MVS 3.8 and VM/370 versions of VMARC, so 
files created in MVS 3.8 can be transmitted back and forth with VM/370.  There 
is also a VM/370 dump command which writes files to the punch, but I forget the 
output format that it uses.

I haven't been active on Hercules for a long while now, so take all my answers 
with a large grain of salt.

You should join at least the main Hercules group and seek help there.

HTH

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bernd Oppolzer
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 3:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: CMS load module format

Hello all,

following this discussion yesterday, I tried to play a little bit with
Hercules for the first time.  I followed one of the links below and succeeded 
so far with installing Hercules and a VM/370 R6 installation which does IPL, 
and I have some X3270 sessions to connect to VM.

I did VM some 15 years ago and forgot many of the details.

I would like to try some PL/1 and COBOL compiles on this VM, because all
these things seem to be there, even ALGOL and PL360.

But when I call the PL/1 compiler, I get an error in DMSLADAD, maybe a 0C1.

There is also a message, when I enter the CMS user called PLI:

CMSSEG SYSTEM NAME 'CMSSEG' NOT AVAILABLE.

I believe that there should be a shared segment named CMSSEG present,
which is not.  Maybe this is the reason for the 0C1.

Maybe one of you could help me offline with this? This would be very nice.

Some further questions:

is it possible to get some version of XEDIT running on this release?

how would you do file transfer in and out of this VM to normal PC
textfiles in the most convenient manner?
--


This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee 
and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader 
of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of 
the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this 
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication 
in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any 
attachments from your system.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Hello all,

following this discussion yesterday, I tried to play a little bit with 
Hercules for the first time.
I followed one of the links below and succeeded so far with installing 
Hercules and a
VM/370 R6 installation which does IPL, and I have some X3270 sessions to 
connect to VM.


I did VM some 15 years ago and forgot many of the details.

I would like to try some PL/1 and COBOL compiles on this VM, because all 
these things

seem to be there, even ALGOL and PL360.

But when I call the PL/1 compiler, I get an error in DMSLADAD, maybe a 0C1.

There is also a message, when I enter the CMS user called PLI:

CMSSEG SYSTEM NAME 'CMSSEG' NOT AVAILABLE.

I believe that there should be a shared segment named CMSSEG present, 
which is not.

Maybe this is the reason for the 0C1.

Maybe one of you could help me offline with this? This would be very nice.

Some further questions:

is it possible to get some version of XEDIT running on this release?

how would you do file transfer in and out of this VM to normal PC 
textfiles in the

most convenient manner?

Kind regards

Bernd




Am 29.09.2011 20:20, schrieb Anne & Lynn Wheeler:

riv...@dignus.com (Thomas David Rivers) writes:

Can anyone point me to a description of the CMS non-relocatable
load module format?  I can't seem to find it anywhere...
(i.e. the output of the CMS GENMOD command.)

old/original ... part of vm370/cms release 6 dmsmod assemble file from
hercules/cbttape distribution (more detailed information in actual
source):

* GENMOD ISSUES THE START (NO) COMMAND TO FINISH LOADING OF 00116000
* OBJECT PROGRAMS. NEXT ERASE THE OLD MODULE IF IT EXISTS.  00117000
* THE START AND ENDING LOCATIONS ARE DETERMINED FROM THE00118000
* USER OPTIONS 'TO' AND 'FROM' OR BY DEFAULT. THE DEFAULT   00119000
* START IS THE ADDRESS OF THE FIRST LOADER TABLE NAME, THE  0012
* DEFAULT END IS THE CURRENT SETTING OF LOCCNT IN NUCON.00121000
* AN EIGHTY BYTE RECORD IS WRITTEN AS THE FIRST RECORD OF THE   00122000
* THE MODULE. THIS RECORD CONSISTS OF THE NUCON LOADER INFORMA- 00123000
* TION. NEXT THE TEXT INFORMATION IS WRITTEN TO THE MODULE  00124000
* FILE IN VARIABLE SIZE RECORDS UP TO 65535 BYTES. IF THE   00125000
* MODULE IS NOT FOR A TRANSIENT ROUTINE AND NOMAP WAS NOT   00126000
* SPECIFIED THE LOADER TABLE IS WRITTEN AS THE LAST MODULE  00127000
* FILE RECORD. CLOSE THE NEW MODULE FILE AND RETURN TO THE  00128000
* CALLER.   00129000


http://www.cbttape.org/vm6.htm
http://www.cbttape.org/awstape.htm
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/VM370.htm



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: CMS load module format

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

riv...@dignus.com (Thomas David Rivers) writes:
> Can anyone point me to a description of the CMS non-relocatable
> load module format?  I can't seem to find it anywhere...
> (i.e. the output of the CMS GENMOD command.)

old/original ... part of vm370/cms release 6 dmsmod assemble file from
hercules/cbttape distribution (more detailed information in actual
source):

* GENMOD ISSUES THE START (NO) COMMAND TO FINISH LOADING OF 00116000
* OBJECT PROGRAMS. NEXT ERASE THE OLD MODULE IF IT EXISTS.  00117000
* THE START AND ENDING LOCATIONS ARE DETERMINED FROM THE00118000
* USER OPTIONS 'TO' AND 'FROM' OR BY DEFAULT. THE DEFAULT   00119000
* START IS THE ADDRESS OF THE FIRST LOADER TABLE NAME, THE  0012
* DEFAULT END IS THE CURRENT SETTING OF LOCCNT IN NUCON.00121000
* AN EIGHTY BYTE RECORD IS WRITTEN AS THE FIRST RECORD OF THE   00122000
* THE MODULE. THIS RECORD CONSISTS OF THE NUCON LOADER INFORMA- 00123000
* TION. NEXT THE TEXT INFORMATION IS WRITTEN TO THE MODULE  00124000
* FILE IN VARIABLE SIZE RECORDS UP TO 65535 BYTES. IF THE   00125000
* MODULE IS NOT FOR A TRANSIENT ROUTINE AND NOMAP WAS NOT   00126000
* SPECIFIED THE LOADER TABLE IS WRITTEN AS THE LAST MODULE  00127000
* FILE RECORD. CLOSE THE NEW MODULE FILE AND RETURN TO THE  00128000
* CALLER.   00129000


http://www.cbttape.org/vm6.htm
http://www.cbttape.org/awstape.htm
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/VM370.htm

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html