Re: New Opcodes
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:12:22 -0800, Keith E. Moe wrote: Second, there was one mnemonic that caught my eye. I do not know what it does, but it's probably one that none of us will forget: PTF. Are you certain that it wasn't PTFF (which was already described in the current Principles of Operations -05 pub)? If so there's no NDA worries. I'm still waiting for MVCOS to finally make it out into the PoO... it was leaked pretty thoroughly a few SHAREs ago in several IBM sessions but didn't make it into either of the last 2 PoOs. (I don't care about what issues caused it to be late, I just want it to be born after all this time.) -- Tom Schmidt -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Marchant) writes: There may have been speculation within IBM that Macrocode, and the architecture that enabled it, was to make it easier to develop new features. I can tell you that I was at Amdahl at the time working on the 580. That was definitely a major reason for it. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#29 New Opcodes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#32 New Opcodes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#33 New Opcodes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#35 New Opcodes well, how should i have phrased it? ... i would run into lots people ... including at the monthly SLAC meetings ... and frequently be asked for advice ... there was lots of issues about not divulging confidences ... even confidences for companies i didn't work for. complicating things, i had a nearly complete set of individually serial numbered (candy striped) 811 documents (i.e. architecture documents named for their nov78 date). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Marchant) writes: It also says, 894 instructions (668 implemented entirely in hardware) The latest POO lists about 750 instructions. I know that there are a few not listed in the POO. Still, it sounds like it's a lot over 50. as per past discussions re the architecture red book (i.e. cms script file where command line option would print the full machine architecture or just the POO subset, full machine architecture was distributed in red 3ring binders) and compareswap instruction http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp getting an instruction added could require a lot of justification. so one way of parsing of the reference to 50+ added instructions to improve compiled code efficiency ... could be referring to over 50 of the added instructions were justified for improving compiled code efficiency (w/o saying anything at all about the total number of added instructions and/or what was the justification for any of the other added instructions). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Anne Lynn Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: as an aside ... there was some similar speculation two decades ago about such stuff. there was even some speculation that one of the other clone processor vendors creation of macrocode was to enable them to quickly adapt to such things (be more agile in tracking, implementing, deploying changes). re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#29 New Opcdoes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#32 New Opcdoes actually such speculation dates back three decades to the introduction of cross-memory instructions and dual-address space mode on 3033 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:47:05 -0500, Anne Lynn Wheeler wrote: ... there was even some speculation that one of the other clone processor vendors creation of macrocode was to enable them to quickly adapt to such things (be more agile in tracking, implementing, deploying changes). There may have been speculation within IBM that Macrocode, and the architecture that enabled it, was to make it easier to develop new features. I can tell you that I was at Amdahl at the time working on the 580. That was definitely a major reason for it. actually such speculation dates back three decades to the introduction of cross-memory instructions and dual-address space mode on 3033 With the introduction of MVS/SE, Amdahl provided something called SE Assist, which provided software emulation of the new instructions that SE used. There was also a ZAP to NIP to no-op a TPROT instruction that seemed to be there only to prevent MVS/SE from IPLing on a processor without the new instructions. When the 580 was being designed, the enhanced architecture of the processor allowed for such software emulation of new instructions in Macrocode without having to install code in the operating system. This allowed instructions in NIP to be emulated. The 580 also had an advanced channel architecture that made it much easier to implement the XA I/O subsystem. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Anne Lynn Wheeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: actually such speculation dates back three decades to the introduction of cross-memory instructions and dual-address space mode on 3033 re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#29 New Opcdoes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#32 New Opcdoes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#33 New Opcdoes part of the speculation was that the cross-memory/dual-address space instructions used more STOs (segment table origins) simultaneously ... and the 3033 had inherited its TLB (and STO-associative) implementation from 168. The additional concurrent STO use activity was putting pressure on TLB-miss and therefor performance. one the other hand, large 168 3033 installation were facing enormous pressure on amount of application addressable space ... aka pasts posts about pointer passing paradigm from real memory heritage dictated the SVS and subsequent MVS implementation with the kernel appearing in the application address space. The MVS design included moving (non-kernel) subsystems into their own address space ... dictating the common segment implementation (supporting squirreling away data for pointer passing APIs). Larger installations were having to constantly grow the common segment ... with 24bit addressing (16mbyte), kernel taking up 8mbytes ... and the common segment growing from 4mbytes to 5mbytes (and more) ... was only leave 3-4mbytes (or less) for applications (even tho there was a virtual address space per application). the future system distraction had redirected a lot of effort into non-370 activity http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#futuresys when future system was killed, there was mad rush to get stuff back into the 370 product pipeline. 370-xa was going to take 7-8 yrs (with 31-bit addressing, access registers, program call return, etc). the stop-gap was 3033 ... which was 168 wiring/logic remapped to faster chip technology. The increasing machine capacity was adding more applications, tending to grow the common segment and putting massive pressure on available (virtual) memory for applications. There was speculation that 3033 cross-memory and dual-address space hardware changes was purely to create incompatibilities for the clone processor vendors ... however there was more than enuf other justification, even if the clone vendors hadn't existed at all (intermediate step on the way to access registers) ... aka dual-address space instructions allowed subsystem to reach directly into the calling application's virtual address to direclty access values pointed to by the passed pointers (w/o requiring the common segment hack). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008c.html#29 New Opcodes justification is justification ... not all have to be there based on the same justification. as an aside ... there was some similar speculation two decades ago about such stuff. there was even some speculation that one of the other clone processor vendors creation of macrocode was to enable them to quickly adapt to such things (be more agile in tracking, implementing, deploying changes). misc. past posts mentioning macrocode. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#44 Linux paging http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#48 Linux paging http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#9 Mainframe System Programmer/Administrator market demand? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#56 Wild hardware idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#59 Misuse of word microcode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005d.html#60 Misuse of word microcode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005h.html#24 Description of a new old-fashioned programming language http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#14 Multicores http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005p.html#29 Documentation for the New Instructions for the z9 Processor http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#40 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#43 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005u.html#48 POWER6 on zSeries? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#38 blast from the past ... macrocode http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006c.html#9 Mainframe Jobs Going Away http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006j.html#32 Code density and performance? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006j.html#35 Code density and performance? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006m.html#39 Using different storage key's http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006p.html#42 old hypervisor email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#33 Assembler question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006u.html#34 Assembler question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#20 Ranking of non-IBM mainframe builders? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007b.html#1 How many 36-bit Unix ports in the old days? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#3 Has anyone ever used self-modifying microcode? Would it even be useful? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007d.html#9 Has anyone ever used self-modifying microcode? Would it even be useful? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007j.html#84 VLIW pre-history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007k.html#74 Non-Standard Mainframe Language? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007n.html#96 some questions about System z PR/SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
On Jan 29, 2008, at 8:00 AM, Anne Lynn Wheeler wrote: ---SNIP-- getting an instruction added could require a lot of justification. -SNIP--- Or is this new behavior on IBM's part to starve off the INTEL Emulator? I think my idea makes more sense. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Phil Payne Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:43 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: New Opcodes New opcodes aren't something I worry too much about - I managed to solve quite a few business problems with System/360. Now old opcodes - I hope they all stick around. The terminology used in the PDF file is interesting: 50+ instructions added to improve compiled code efficiency. It almost sounds like these will be unpublished instructions foro use exclusively by IBM's compilers. I hope not. I really __despise__ undocumented instructions. I don't know why, but I do. I guess because I find computer architecture interesting. But I don't see how a compiler can use an undocumented instruction. How would I debug the program if the instruction gets an exception of some sort? Or do source level, interactive, debugging at the assembler level? And, if they are reserved for IBM only compilers, that is anti competative. And what about GCC on Linux? I guess it would not be able to use the instructions. Undocumented, problem state, instructions are __EVIL__ as far as I am concerned. Yes, you've finally found something that I am a bit passionate about grin. Down at metal level it's quite a different architecture. I wouldn't be surprised to see some object code optimized a little with special instructions. -- Phil Payne -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
In a message dated 1/29/2008 7:49:27 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know that there are a few not listed in the POO. Still, it sounds like it's a lot over 50. Those are just the graphics and sound instructions for the GDDM replacement? **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:54:53 EST, Ed Finnell wrote: Message dated 1/29/2008 7:49:27 A.M. CST, m42tom-ibmmain writes: I know that there are a few not listed in the POO. Still, it sounds like it's a lot over 50. Those are just the graphics and sound instructions for the GDDM replacement? Oh, that makes sense -- the new PTF instruction must mean: Play The Flute (or Play The Fiddle?) -- Tom Schmidt -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
In a message dated 1/29/2008 12:06:27 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Play The Flute Getting kind of silly but I liked-Plunk Twanger Froggie or Push The FUD. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:42:37 -, Phil Payne wrote: The terminology used in the PDF file is interesting: 50+ instructions added to improve compiled code efficiency. It also says, 894 instructions (668 implemented entirely in hardware) The latest POO lists about 750 instructions. I know that there are a few not listed in the POO. Still, it sounds like it's a lot over 50. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
I think it's Pity The Fool. It's a very dangerous op-code to attempt. Not many people know that Mr. T moonlights as a hardware architect. Jon snip Second, there was one mnemonic that caught my eye. I do not know what it does, but it's probably one that none of us will forget: PTF. Keith E. Moe Perform The Following? Maybe it is the long wanted execute immediate instruction? Waiting with worm on tongue to read more. /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Schmidt On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:54:53 EST, Ed Finnell wrote: Message dated 1/29/2008 7:49:27 A.M. CST, m42tom-ibmmain writes: I know that there are a few not listed in the POO. Still, it sounds like it's a lot over 50. Those are just the graphics and sound instructions for the GDDM replacement? Oh, that makes sense -- the new PTF instruction must mean: Play The Flute (or Play The Fiddle?) I doubt IBM would call it a Fiddle. Violin would seem more their style. :-) How about Point The Finger? -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
As far as I know there are only two things IBM has said publicly about a future mainframe processor, and I guess they could be the same or different. Here's the first, from August: http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/IBM-z6-mainframe-microprocessor-Webb.pdf which says 50+ instructions added to improve compiled code efficiency. The second is what the IBM CFO said in his prepared remarks concerning IBM's 4th quarter, 2007 earnings. Beyond that, I haven't seen any more information. So let's wait to see if/when IBM says more, OK? - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 18:23 +0900, Timothy Sipples wrote: Beyond that, I haven't seen any more information. So let's wait to see if/when IBM says more, OK? Timothy, you'd have to be sleeping under blue plastic in a Tokyo park to not have some idea of what's coming. I gotta say that after all these years, I find the secret handshake bullshit prior to announcements just a little puerile. Jaundiced from from too years I guess. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
I guess I miss the point. A new processor is coming, details to follow. New opcodes are coming; watch for HLASM PTFs to support them. How does one code the new instructions? Wait for the POO. This is all out of sight, out of mind. Anyone who knows about this stuff can't discuss it, and frankly it shouldn't have been mentioned on this list. Bob Shannon Rocket Software -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
I am NOT going to post the list here, as that would be a violation of the non-disclosure. You might already be in violation. I tend to agree. You could have just ended your ISV partnership with IBM! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
Keith E. Moe wrote: I am NOT going to post the list here, as that would be a violation of the non-disclosure. You might already be in violation. First, there are some SIX letter mnemonics. Historically, mnemonics had been limited to FIVE characters. You've miscounted. (There should be a note describing what the + means.) -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: New Opcodes
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith E. Moe Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: New Opcodes IBM just posted the list of new mnemonics that the HLASM will soon support (and by inference, some new fangled type of hardware) via their vendor non-disclosure channel. I am NOT going to post the list here, as that would be a violation of the non-disclosure. However, I will post a couple of observations that hopefully won't get me in trouble. First, there are some SIX letter mnemonics. Historically, mnemonics had been limited to FIVE characters. Second, there was one mnemonic that caught my eye. I do not know what it does, but it's probably one that none of us will forget: PTF. Keith E. Moe Perform The Following? Maybe it is the long wanted execute immediate instruction? Waiting with worm on tongue to read more. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
