Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Arggg, even InfoWorld seems to be publishing the idea of COBOL being archaic as technically accurate. http://weblog.infoworld.com/fatalexception/archives/2008/08/californias_ leg.html http://weblog.infoworld.com/daily/archives/2008/08/the_mildly_iron.html Tom Kelman Enterprise Capacity Planner Commerce Bank of Kansas City (816) 760-7632 * If you wish to communicate securely with Commerce Bank and its affiliates, you must log into your account under Online Services at http://www.commercebank.com or use the Commerce Bank Secure Email Message Center at https://securemail.commercebank.com NOTICE: This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential. The information is exclusively for the use of the individual or entity intended as the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying, printing, reviewing, retention, disclosure, distribution or forwarding of the message or any attached file is not authorized and is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail message in error, please advise the sender by reply electronic mail immediately and permanently delete the original transmission, any attachments and any copies of this message from your computer system. * -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
And Computerworld has a slightly different take http://cwflyris.computerworld.com/t/3409405/121975425/131431/0 -Original Message- Kelman, Tom Arggg, even InfoWorld seems to be publishing the idea of COBOL being archaic as technically accurate. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Harper [ snip ] Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all news reported. I tend to question the competence and honesty of the quoted source(s) rather than the reporter(s). And if the source(s) are government (any level), I almost automatically assume the quotes are outright lies. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Don Leahy [ snip ] Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know: The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems. This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the old (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-) But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three different programming languages. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Chase, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Don Leahy [ snip ] Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know: The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems. This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the old (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-) But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three different programming languages. -jc- Yeah, and the old system uses JCL so you can add that to the list of programming languages too. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
John, It is true that California is in a bind, however, I hardly think that it is appropriate for state employees to essentially make a loan to the state government with the implied threat of if they don't, their jobs may be terminated. This has happened many times before, with various solutions, such as vouchers that some banks honored, etc. Interestingly enough, welfare recipients still get their checks, as it's mandated by law. However, the law is apparently not equal, as state employees are required to be paid the average salary for their type of position, which has clearly not been the case over the last several decades. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team Neon Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:06 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Green Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!! COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult to maintain. Where do I start? How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come up with a solution that would work with their existing system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few hundred grand? Idiots! Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind right now. I think that most of the CA state employees now love COBOL. I'd give you a pay cut, but our computer system refuses! I found it very amusing. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
[snip] But according to professional BS-ers, COBOL, IMS and DB2 are three different programming languages. -jc- Yeah, and the old system uses JCL so you can add that to the list of programming languages too. :-) Well, in a sense, JCL is a programming language. It is, supposedly, human readable text which instructs a computer to perform a series of actions. I guess it depends on the defination of programming language vs. control language. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Harper Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com John, It is true that California is in a bind, however, I hardly think that it is appropriate for state employees to essentially make a loan to the state government with the implied threat of if they don't, their jobs may be terminated. This has happened many times before, with various solutions, such as vouchers that some banks honored, etc. I worked for Braniff Airways back in the early '80s. Just before it went bankrupt for the first time. All employees there were told something like: 10% of your salary is going to be taken into a fund. If the company becomes profitable again, you will get this back. I.e. we got a 10% pay cut, but not stated as a pay cut. And we still paid income taxes on that 10% which we never saw again. Interestingly enough, welfare recipients still get their checks, as it's mandated by law. However, the law is apparently not equal, as state employees are required to be paid the average salary for their type of position, which has clearly not been the case over the last several decades. Tom Harper -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
McKown, John wrote: Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind right now. The State of CA has had a 39% revenue *increase* since Arnold took office. How could they be in a bind? They spend money like drunken sailors. Even less responsibly. At least drunken sailors are spending their *own* money! :o -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
quote The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. Being in Government for 40 years I have never heard of any government payroll system, no matter how old it is, not being able to be updated when there is a pay raise (i.e. new pay tables). Been doing this for years and years. So in California, to update a salary with a pay decrease is not possible without reprogramming the entire system. Sounds like a very interesting coding technique which was employed in the beginning and designed for the future; oh yes, this is California or maybe it is some excuse. Sounds like the time to hire a consultant to do a study, do nothing until it is completed in a year or two; what'a plan. jim -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!! COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult to maintain. Where do I start? How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come up with a solution that would work with their existing system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few hundred grand? Idiots! On Tue Aug 5 14:38 , 'McKown, John' [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. ... The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Green Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:01 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com Ya know... It's crap and FUD like this that makes my blood boil!!! COBOL, an antique language, not taught anymore and difficult to maintain. Where do I start? How about I offer to go in there, analyze the situation, come up with a solution that would work with their existing system, write it all myself and then charge them only a few hundred grand? Idiots! Where would they get the money to pay you? CA is apparently in a bind right now. I think that most of the CA state employees now love COBOL. I'd give you a pay cut, but our computer system refuses! I found it very amusing. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
McKown, John wrote: http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html quote The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. Huh? How does a pay cut exhaust a payroll system? What does that mean, to exhaust a system? ... The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. /quote We can teach them young whippersnappers COBOL quickly. (But, of course, not for free!) Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS == == application developer toolkits. Sample code in four== == programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, == == bind and test. == == http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html== -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
I missed this gem: quote Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification on an individual basis. /quote Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html quote [ snip ] COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. /quote And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as Insultants.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
The Bee laid off their technology reporter - I heard they are having budget hard times. No wonder considering that they do such a poor job at tso many things. Except of course publishing the names and exact pay amounts of ALL state workers. ;-) What aqua morons - as some famous wabbit used to say... Linda Mooney -- Original message -- From: Chase, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of McKown, John http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html [ snip ] COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as Insultants.. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:25:33 -0500, McKown, John wrote: I missed this gem: quote Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification on an individual basis. /quote Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to sell their new system. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:25:33 -0500, McKown, John wrote: I missed this gem: quote Forrer said the system has tens of thousands of lines of code, so it is time-consuming to find and replace salaries for each job classification on an individual basis. /quote Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to sell their new system. -- Tom Marchant That would be easier to believe. And those who know better are keeping their mouths shut. Reminds me of when I worked for a city government. I was told that it would be best if I never attended any city council meetings because somebody might notice and ask me a question about the computer systems. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com snip Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! I doubt it. More likely someone made up a load of rubbish to sell their new system. -- Tom Marchant snip I smell a familiar stench. Seems like a political ploy to gain support for bringing in offshore labor to do all that COBOL coding because those COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days. The degree of BS just keeps gettin' PHD (i.e. Piled Higher Deeper). Bill Bass Senior Applications Developer United Health Care Greenville, SC This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
snip--- Somebody HARD CODED the pay scales in the code? ROTFLMAO! unsnip- We all knew that politicians were basicly stupid; we just didn't know how bad the problem really was! :-)) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Perhaps I can add some clarity here. I worked for the California State Controller's office and was he primary technical support for it until I left in 1982, so I am very familiar with the system. I can confirm that most of it is written in COBOL, although I think characterizing it as a Vietnam-era computer-language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore is a statement designed to mis-label and malign a perfectly fine language. Point-of-fact: College students in the 1970's and early 1980's when this system was written didn't bother to learn COBOL either. It wasn't because it was so out-dated; it was because the computer science department didn't like COBOL for whatever reason. Many systems we use today were designed and built before the Vietnam-era. Does that make them bad? That's the implication that the author is trying to make, and it certainly does not stand up to the most basic of challenges: truth. Additionally, the payroll system is completely table-driven, for taxes and salaries, so this change should only take a short while to accomplish, not the six months asserted by controller John Chiang. Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all news reported. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Comstock Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com McKown, John wrote: http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html quote The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. Huh? How does a pay cut exhaust a payroll system? What does that mean, to exhaust a system? ... The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. /quote We can teach them young whippersnappers COBOL quickly. (But, of course, not for free!) Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-393-8716 http://www.trainersfriend.com z/OS Application development made easier * Our classes include + How things work + Programming examples with realistic applications + Starter / skeleton code + Complete working programs + Useful utilities and subroutines + Tips and techniques == Check out the Trainer's Friend Store to purchase z/OS == == application developer toolkits. Sample code in four== == programming languages, JCL to Assemble or compile, == == bind and test. == == http://www.trainersfriend.com/TTFStore/index.html== -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
---snip--- And they get quite miffed when so many refer to them as Insultants.. -unsnip- All too often, a consultant is anyone who hangs out a shingle saying so. Brains and good sense are too often left out of the equation. Present company excepted, of course. We're all professionals here, even if experience might be a little short in a few cases. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:38 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html quote The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. ... The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. /quote -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 60s and 70s. As was the interstate highway system and who would wager which would outlive the other? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John P. Baker Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:38 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html quote The massive pay cut would exhaust the state's antiquated payroll system, which is built on a Vietnam-era computer language so outdated that many college students don't even bother to learn it anymore. ... The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days, said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement. /quote -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards. Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Rick Fochtman wrote: We all knew that politicians were basicly stupid; we just didn't know how bad the problem really was! :-)) And, California's politicians seems stupider than most. It's really embarrassing. :-[ -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800 Los Angeles, CA 90045 310-338-0400 x318 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
On 5 Aug 2008 14:48:51 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John P. Baker) wrote: This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs. Actually, it sounds like a prepared statement written for a Democratic Controller who is looking to score points with organized labor, at the expense of a Republican governator. Eric -- Eric Chevalier E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Actually, the coding change would be minimal. As reported, the Governor stated that according to the CA Supreme Court ruling, all employees are to be paid minimum wage when a budget has not been enacted by the Legislature. So, all that must be done is to provide a flag that, when set, resets all wage rates to minimum wage. This can be done immediately following the extraction of the regular wage rates from the tables according to the employees pay grade. Analysis could require a few days, depending on the actual size of the software package (a few tens of thousands of lines? I will take that with a big handful of salt), and coding probably considerably less. Testing would take a few more days, and that is that. John P. Baker -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pedro Vera Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:55 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards. Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Pedro, That is done with an already built-in retroactive function used many times in the past. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land TX - Original Message - From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Sent: Tue Aug 05 16:55:04 2008 Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com I would think the hard part would be to restore the pay to the correct levels afterwards. Pedro Vera phone (408) 463-4812 internet [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all news reported. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know: The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems. This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the old (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Don, I left in 1982, and at that time, the state payroll system was part of a larger system, Personal Information Management System (PIMS). It did not use any data bases per se, and was written primarily in COBOL with a few small assembler subroutines. It was VSAM-based (no IMS or DB2, which may have been added later), was primarily a batch system with an online CICS set of transactions which could be used for updating individual personal records. However, I think most of this is fairly irrelevant. We are discussing technical issues, and has been pointed out, the statements made by the state controller are suspect and probably politically motivated in order to accomplish some goal, perhaps to win union support and votes, perhaps to embarrass the governor, perhaps to gain funding for yet another state personnel system, perhaps in genuine ignorance in which case it could serve to embarrass himself. At any rate, the current payroll system is the designated fall guy here. Despite all of the slanderous statements made, as far as I know, it does work and ensures that all of the employees are paid correctly and on time. By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Leahy Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com Reading something like this makes one wonder about the veracity of all news reported. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX Here is a (paraphrased) excerpt from a document at a site that I know: The old system is written in several different programming languages and runs on incompatible platforms and operating systems. This statement was slightly puzzling to those familiar with the old (early 1990s) system, which was 100% COBOL under IMS and DB2. :-) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
Wait - California has a REPUBLICAN governor? Could'a fooled me. Seriously, though, this sounds like a load of dimpled chads to me. I'm a security guy, not a programmer, but even I could probably code the changes necessary (provided they were in Cobol - I'd need a bit of help with the Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)). Cripes, there are probably folks here who could BREADBOARD changes like that without too much of a problem. Now, if they're doing all this on a Mac, I could understand their dilemma... [insert cheeky grin here] -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Chevalier Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 18:06 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com On 5 Aug 2008 14:48:51 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John P. Baker) wrote: This sounds like a prepared statement written for the Controller by a competing vendor seeking to replace the mainframe with a bunch of insecure, overpriced, and over-hyped PCs. Actually, it sounds like a prepared statement written for a Democratic Controller who is looking to score points with organized labor, at the expense of a Republican governator. Eric -- Eric Chevalier E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: www.tulsagrammer.com Is that call really worth your child's life? HANG UP AND DRIVE! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
I'm a security guy, not a programmer, but even I could probably code the changes necessary (provided they were in Cobol - I'd need a bit of help with the Assembler (WAY too rusty on that one, sadly)). I haven't coded a complex COBOL routine, nor anything in ASM, since 1981. But, I think I could do it, as well. I've coded in REXX SAS extensively. Programming is not a language, it's a skill! Give a PFCSK with programming skills (oxymoron?) a COBOL manual, and they could probably figure it out. Spoken by a Vietnam-era IT professional. (Even though Vietnam really didn't matter to my country -- except to fill up news shows). - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Politics - California state computers can't handle pay cut, controller says - sacbee.com
By the way, it would be helpful if you cited a source for your quote. Tom Harper IMS Utilities Development Team NEON Enterprise Software, Inc. Sugar Land, TX The quotation had nothing to do with the California situation. It was from a different time and place, intended only to illustrate the type of disinformation that can be spread. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
