Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Rick Fochtman]

-


You always believe that your every word is golden, and go ballistic when people 
only quote the part that they are commenting on.
   



1. I'm probably going to regret responding.
2. I do not think my words are golden; I'm simply trying to clarify, since I 
did not articulate my position well enough to be understood.
3. I was not ballistic; I didn't take any of the comments personally.
4. I don't know why you have it in for me, as I'm only trying to help. Also, I 
do not make cryptic and obscure comments that do not add to the knowledge being 
diseminated. Though, as anybody else, I've been known to be wrong, and, unlike 
some, I usually acknowledge and appologise.
5. It must be nice to be able to read minds and infer what people think, even 
when you're dead wrong.
6. This the last time I am responding to you on any post, because it appears to 
me that you deliberately goad people, rather than contribute positively.
7. I'm still investigating why you keep slipping through my e-mail filters.
8. If you cannot contribute constructively, I would suggest that you do not at 
all. I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.

Now back to real information.
 


-
ENOUGH WITH THE PERSONALITY CONFLICTS!

We're all professionals on this list; let's behave as such. Granted, 
sometimes we get a little "thin skinned" at times and that makes us a 
little "testy". And sometimes our personal traits MIGHT be offensive to 
others. But there's too much expertise represented here to let 
parsonalities get in the way, leading to waste and "hatred and discontent".


Make peace. PLEASE!!!

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>You always believe that your every word is golden, and go ballistic when 
>people only quote the part that they are commenting on.

1. I'm probably going to regret responding.
2. I do not think my words are golden; I'm simply trying to clarify, since I 
did not articulate my position well enough to be understood.
3. I was not ballistic; I didn't take any of the comments personally.
4. I don't know why you have it in for me, as I'm only trying to help. Also, I 
do not make cryptic and obscure comments that do not add to the knowledge being 
diseminated. Though, as anybody else, I've been known to be wrong, and, unlike 
some, I usually acknowledge and appologise.
5. It must be nice to be able to read minds and infer what people think, even 
when you're dead wrong.
6. This the last time I am responding to you on any post, because it appears to 
me that you deliberately goad people, rather than contribute positively.
7. I'm still investigating why you keep slipping through my e-mail filters.
8. If you cannot contribute constructively, I would suggest that you do not at 
all. I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.

Now back to real information.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 04/14/2008
   at 10:19 PM, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>My point was: why do people do things in a non-standard (unsupported)
>way. Which you snipped out.

ROTF,LMAO! You always believe that your every word is golden, and go
ballistic when people only quote the part that they are commenting on.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Then you missed the point.  The point is that there is nothing non-standard or 
>unsupported in naming the data sets I was referring to:

My point had nothing to do with that, except for redundant qualifiers.

My point was why were production jobs/users pointing to SYS1 datasets directly?
I elabourated in a subsequent post.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear to begin with.

The true point to communication is not to ensure you're understood; rather to 
ensure you're not mis-understood!

-
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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Mark Zelden]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:19:01 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
.
>
>My point was: why do people do things in a non-standard (unsupported) way. 
Which you snipped out.
>

Then you missed the point.  The point is that there is nothing non-standard 
or unsupported in naming the data sets I was referring to: SYS1.ISP.SISP*, 
SYS1.ISF.SISF* or SYS1.SISP*, SYS1.SISF* or ISP.SISP*, ISF.SISF* (and
others).  IBM default names are the last  examples.  The other 2 examples
are both common (with SYS1.something being the most common from what
I have seen).Again, changing it once it has already been done one
way or the other is what I was referring to as being a PITA.   

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group
mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at 
http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>That was when I said  (basically) "what do standards have to do with it?".

I have lost track of your point.
In (almost) every shop I've worked in, we've set it up so production does not 
point (directly) to system libraries.
They're either in LINK/LPA, catalogued procedures or buried in production 
CLIST/REXX (preferrably the latter).
So, if we have to change some dataset names, we don't have to change production 
JCL.

We just change a single point of access.
Case in point:
Almost two years ago, we converted from PKZIP for z/OS to ZIP/390.
We had 1000's of jobs that used it, but we only had 7 that we had to change -- 
two were for steplibs and the rest because it was not a 100% work-alike.

-
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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Not your comment, Eh?  Who's post is this??   >Perhaps you were too busy 
>driving to remember.  :-)

I was responding to the original PITA comment.

The following comment was not mine -- I've lost track of whose it was:

Hard to change that stuff in a production environment... well, maybe not
>hard, just a PITA when there are batch processes and people with their own
>clists etc.

I responded. This comment was mine:
>>>In production, standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA.

My point was: why do people do things in a non-standard (unsupported) way. 
Which you snipped out.

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Mark Zelden]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:36:07 -0500, Mark Zelden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:58:27 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hard to change that stuff in a production environment... well, maybe not
>>hard, just a PITA when there are batch processes and people with their own
>>clists etc.

In production, standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA.
>>>
>>
>>>(changed the subject since this has nothing to do with debuggers)
>>
>>>What do local production standards have to do with the sysres names chosen
>>for sysres dsns (perhaps years and years ago)?  >How would standards make
>>it any easier to change?
>>
>>The PITA comment was not made by me.
>>The standards don't make it easier to change.
>>If done right Production should not be steplib'ing (for example) to system
>libraries.
>>
>
>Not your comment, Eh?  Who's post is this??   Perhaps you were too busy
>driving to remember.  :-)
>
>http://bama.ua.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=ibm-main&D=1&O=D&T=0&P=125149
>
>You can't STEPLIB to ISPPLIB, ISPMLIB, ISPTLIB etc.  Only ISPLLIB can be
>eliminated by putting libraries in the LNKLST.
>

Ted,

To be clear... I used "PITA" in my post but you wrote "In production, 
standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA."  

That was when I said  (basically) "what do standards have to do with it?".

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Mark Zelden]

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:58:27 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hard to change that stuff in a production environment... well, maybe not
>hard, just a PITA when there are batch processes and people with their own
>clists etc.
>>>
>>>In production, standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA.
>>
>
>>(changed the subject since this has nothing to do with debuggers)
>
>>What do local production standards have to do with the sysres names chosen
>for sysres dsns (perhaps years and years ago)?  >How would standards make
>it any easier to change?
>
>The PITA comment was not made by me.
>The standards don't make it easier to change.
>If done right Production should not be steplib'ing (for example) to system
libraries.
>

Not your comment, Eh?  Who's post is this??   Perhaps you were too busy
driving to remember.  :-)

http://bama.ua.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0804&L=ibm-main&D=1&O=D&T=0&P=125149

You can't STEPLIB to ISPPLIB, ISPMLIB, ISPTLIB etc.  Only ISPLLIB can be
eliminated by putting libraries in the LNKLST.

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>>>Hard to change that stuff in a production environment... well, maybe not
hard, just a PITA when there are batch processes and people with their own
clists etc.
>>
>>In production, standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA.
>

>(changed the subject since this has nothing to do with debuggers)

>What do local production standards have to do with the sysres names chosen
for sysres dsns (perhaps years and years ago)?  >How would standards make
it any easier to change?

The PITA comment was not made by me.
The standards don't make it easier to change.
If done right Production should not be steplib'ing (for example) to system 
libraries.

-
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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Eric Bielefeld]

I also like making SYS1. qualifiers for all of the IBM target datasets.  When I 
was still at P&H Mining, I would consolidate all of the ISPF libraries by type. 
 Instead of having a bunch of ISPPLIBs, SLIBs, TLIBs, etc., I changed the 
DDDefs to all point to SYS1.ISPPLIB, SYS1.ISPSLIB, SYS1.ISPTLIB, etc.  That 
way, in the logon proc and in the system libraries, there was one set of 
libraries.  I never had any problems with doing it that way.  It took a while 
longer setting it up on the Serverpac, but I think the results were worth it.  

Eric

 Shane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> I happen to like having SYS1.** for (all) IBM targets.
> Always had a RACF rule for it - and a group SYS1 for that matter.
> Nowadays have similar for the OMVS started tasks.
> 
> And yes, I go change all the ServerPac dsnames that "need" it - not
> helped by the mish-mash of names shipped. I'm sure I've beaten up on
> Marna about that.
> 
> I *hate* it when I go into an AD/CD (derived) shop that has
> god-who-knows-how-many HLQs for system targets.
> I can work with whatever the customer dictates, but I also know where I
> can work most effectively.
> I work with what they give me - they pay the bill after all.
> 
> Shane ...
--
Eric Bielefeld
Systems Programmer
Aviva USA
Des Moines, Iowa
515-645-5153

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Re: SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Shane]

I happen to like having SYS1.** for (all) IBM targets.
Always had a RACF rule for it - and a group SYS1 for that matter.
Nowadays have similar for the OMVS started tasks.

And yes, I go change all the ServerPac dsnames that "need" it - not
helped by the mish-mash of names shipped. I'm sure I've beaten up on
Marna about that.

I *hate* it when I go into an AD/CD (derived) shop that has
god-who-knows-how-many HLQs for system targets.
I can work with whatever the customer dictates, but I also know where I
can work most effectively.
I work with what they give me - they pay the bill after all.

Shane ...

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SYSRES Data Set Names (was Re: Workable Mainframe Debuggers)

[Mark Zelden]

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 02:51:34 +, Ted MacNEIL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>I often see SYS1.ISF.SISF* , SYS1.ISP.SISP*, SYS1.GIM.SGIM* etc. even
though the MLQ is redundant.
>
>I agree with the redundancy argument; what's wrong with each product having
the same library name(s) at every site?
>
>
>>Hard to change that stuff in a production environment... well, maybe not
hard, just a PITA when there are batch processes and people with their own
clists etc.
>
>In production, standards should be enforced, so it won't become a PITA.
>

(changed the subject since this has nothing to do with debuggers)

What do local production standards have to do with the sysres names chosen
for sysres dsns (perhaps years and years ago)?  How would standards make
it any easier to change?

Mark
--
Mark Zelden
Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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