Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 04/19/2007
   at 09:01 AM, Clem Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Of course, the Source Code for early versions of the OS and language 
>translators was also available.

The source code for the OS through OS/VS2 R3.8 in available, including
the bundled compilers. However, OS/VS2 with every available SU,
Assembler (F, XF), COBOL (F, U), FORTRAN (G, H), PL/I (F) is not going
to run a contemporary application suite.

>Would that be legal?

Sure.

>Would that be useful?

Doubtful.

>Or, Z/OS itself?

Illegal. Likewise for all of the current IBM compilers.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Edward Jaffe]

Ed Gould wrote:

Any guesses what will come after zSeries?


After zSeries comes System z.

--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The Sky is indeed Falling
> 
> 
> On Apr 14, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Phil Payne wrote:
> 
> > Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.
> >
> > It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.
> >
> > http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html
> >
> 
> 
> Phil,
> 
> Any guesses what will come after zSeries?
> 
> Ed

Windows Vista? 

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential.  It is for intended addressee(s) only.  If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is
strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
offense.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing
it. 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Ed Gould]

On Apr 14, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Phil Payne wrote:


Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.

It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.

http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html




Phil,

Any guesses what will come after zSeries?

Ed

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Clem Clarke]

Of course, the Source Code for early versions of the OS and language 
translators was also available.


Indeed, the source for MVS 3.8 is, I believe, still available.

Now, if that were run through my 370 to 486/ Pentium converter, and 
either turned into a bootable system on Intel hardware, or even ran as a 
guest under Linux (say) and converted all I/O to use Linux calls, then I 
wonder what that would mean?


Would that be legal?

Would that be useful?

Or, Z/OS itself?

Clem


,-._|\  Clement V. Clarke - Author Jol, EASYJCL, EASYPANEL, 370TO486
/  Oz  \ Web: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~oscarptyltd
\_,--.x/ 16/38 Kings Park Road, West Perth, AUSTRALIA, 6005.
 v  Tel (61)-8-9324-1119, Mob 0401-054-155.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Tom Marchant wrote:


On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:15:22 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote:

 

"architecture specifications" could be interpreted by IBM to mean the 
   


microchip  design
 


of their instruction processing units, memory units, etc.
   




From the POO:

   "The architecture of a system defines its attributes as seen by the
programmer, that is, the conceptual structure and functional
behavior of the machine, as distinct from the organization of the
data flow, the logical design, the physical design, and the
performance of any particular implementation."

It is hard to imagine that they would successfully argue now that architecture 
means something different.


 



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Obfuscation, smoke, and mirrors are corporate lawyers' best  specialty.

Shakespeare (sp?) said it best!

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!  

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Tom Marchant]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:15:22 EDT, IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote:

>
>"architecture specifications" could be interpreted by IBM to mean the 
microchip  design
>of their instruction processing units, memory units, etc.

>From the POO:
"The architecture of a system defines its attributes as seen by the
 programmer, that is, the conceptual structure and functional
 behavior of the machine, as distinct from the organization of the
 data flow, the logical design, the physical design, and the
 performance of any particular implementation."

It is hard to imagine that they would successfully argue now that architecture 
means something different.

-- 
Tom Marchant

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[(IBM Mainframe Discussion List)]

 
 
In a message dated 4/18/2007 1:23:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>41.
>Beginning with IBM's introduction in 1964 of its S/360 line of  mainframe 
computers and operating systems, and continuing with subsequent  model 
lines, IBM freely and broadly disseminated the architecture  specifications 
of its 
mainframe computers and operating systems. Customers,  competitors, and 
other third-party software and hardware developers used the  information 
disseminated by IBM to create software and hardware products  designed 
specifically for use with IBM's mainframe computers and operating  systems.
>Denied.




>How they can deny the POO (Amdahl and PSI term), I'll never  know.
 
You have to know how to parse in Legalese.
1st sentence - "freely and broadly" are not defined sufficiently.   
"architecture specifications" could be interpreted by IBM to mean the microchip 
 design 
of their instruction processing units, memory units, etc.  They  might even 
claim that IBM did not introduce their S/360 line until 1965, and  merely 
"announced" in 1964.  This would introduce a factual error into the  sentence 
with 
which they could not possibly agree.
2nd sentence - "designed specifically" how can IBM possibly know how or why  
a competitor did anything or for what purpose they intended a  product?  
Perhaps the competitors designed their products as general  purpose computers 
for 
several markets, only one of which was IBM's mainframe  computers and operating 
systems.  The fact that such products were used  only with IBM's mainframe 
computers and operating systems does not prove that  they could not be used 
with 
other vendors' computers and operating  systems.  This is like trying to 
prove a negative.
It seems to me that paragraph 41 is a key argument to which IBM will never  
admit.  In that case, they will invent an innumerable number of legal  nuances 
and subterfuges to obfuscate that which was obvious to those of us  with 
common sense and who were involved with mainframe computers back in those  
days.  
Their dissemination sure looked free and broad to me at the  time.  
Obfuscation, smoke, and mirrors are corporate lawyers' best  specialty.
 
Bill  Fairchild
Plainfield, IL



** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Scott Blackledge
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The Sky is indeed Falling



Denied.
=

How they can deny the POO (Amdahl and PSI term), I'll never know.



Because IBM charged for the POO, it was not "freely" distributed.
Arguments made by attorneys. Your idea/understanding of "freely" and
theirs may well not be the same.

But in the end, given that it was not a "Licensed" manual, I would think
that they will ultimately have to stipulate to this one.

Later,
Steve Thompson

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 1:39 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The Sky is indeed Falling
> 
> 
> Try to locate a doc for B220 instruction, to name just one.
> 
> Alex

Look at the Hercules source code. It has some. Of course, that is not
official documentation by any stretch of the imagination. And try to
find out more about the SIE and SIGA instructions. The SIE once had its
own manual. But I don't think that manual is current with the hardware
any more.

But originally, as PSI asserts, IBM supplied many manuals on the
internals of the S/360 architecture, including "Functional
Characteristics" manuals that were fascinating!

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential.  It is for intended addressee(s) only.  If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is
strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
offense.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing
it. 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Alex]

Try to locate a doc for B220 instruction, to name just one.

Alex

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Scott Blackledge]

>From http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html ("The History and 
Growth of the IBM-Compatible Mainframe Market" section).

I love this PSI claim and IBM's response.

=
41.

Beginning with IBM's introduction in 1964 of its S/360 line of mainframe 
computers and operating systems, and continuing with subsequent model 
lines, IBM freely and broadly disseminated the architecture specifications of 
its 
mainframe computers and operating systems. Customers, competitors, and 
other third-party software and hardware developers used the information 
disseminated by IBM to create software and hardware products designed 
specifically for use with IBM's mainframe computers and operating systems. 

Denied.
=

How they can deny the POO (Amdahl and PSI term), I'll never know.

Scott

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Warner Mach
> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 11:36 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The Sky is indeed Falling
> 
> 
> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:57:28 +0100, Phil Payne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> RESEARCH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> wrote:
> 
> >Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.
> >
> >It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.
> >
> Remember back when we used to cheer IBM on in their suit with SCO?
> SCO - Those rotten guys who were trying to use the patent system to
> blackmail companies and consumers and restrict progress in for the 
> sake of narrow self-interest!

Actually, I don't remember them asserting patents in the suit. I
remember "copyrights", uh no, "contracts", uh no, "methods and
concepts", uh no, "...". SCO has never delivered a clear indication of
what, exactly, IBM was supposed to have done to them. IBM has been very
clear what they think PSI has done in this case. I don't agree with
their stand, but they are clear.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged
and/or confidential.  It is for intended addressee(s) only.  If you are
not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is
strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal
offense.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing
it. 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Warner Mach]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:57:28 +0100, Phil Payne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RESEARCH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> wrote:

>Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.
>
>It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.
>
Remember back when we used to cheer IBM on in their suit with SCO?
SCO - Those rotten guys who were trying to use the patent system to
blackmail companies and consumers and restrict progress in for the 
sake of narrow self-interest!

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Mohammad Khan]

So that's it, IBM has finally decided to have roasted Golden Goose for dinner ! 
We all liked the eggs but it's not our goose after all. Unless the courts 
decide 
otherwise, IBM might well enjoy it roasted golden goose.
Interesting times for us dinos
Mohammad



On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:57:28 +0100, Phil Payne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RESEARCH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> wrote:

>Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.
>
>It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.
>
>http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.co.uk
>  +44 7833 654 800

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 4/15/2007 8:54:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

They  will lose the suit and will be forced to continue to
support the mainframe   After all, they have been trying for
years (off and on) to get rid of  VSE and VM.



>>
Guess my dark side kinda wanted it to drag out for a while so we could  get 
the source for z/OS and Project Eclipz on the table. Then the real fireworks  
begin 



** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Warner Mach]

Phi Payne wrote:

Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD
It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.

The best hope is that IBM executives will fail in their misguided
efforts. They will lose the suit and will be forced to continue to
support the mainframe  After all, they have been trying for
years (off and on) to get rid of VSE and VM.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Tom Moulder]

Steve

I agree with Phil's assessment and have for the last six months.  It's not
about making "z" last forever; it's about getting all you can out of a
platform before the end of its life (meaning that the end is already
conceded).

I was not one of the OS/2 bigots during its time, but I wonder how they felt
when IBM capitulated and Windoze became the de facto standard in PC
Operating systems?  I have much more empathy for them now than I ever had at
the time.

If you don't stand for something; you'll fall for anything.  So it is
appropriate that Phil states, "The sky is falling".  Sorry for really mixing
up trite phrases, it just seemed ironic early on Sunday morning.

Tom Moulder


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Steve Comstock
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

Phil Payne wrote:
> Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.
> 
> It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.

That's the most chilling work-related statement I've
seen in almost 40 years working in mainframes.

Are you really saying end of life for z/OS and z/VSE?
Because I see IBM continuing support of zSeries in the
forms of z/VM and Linux.

Kind regards,

-- 
-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com


-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/760 - Release Date: 4/13/2007
8:04 PM
 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Steve Comstock]

Phil Payne wrote:

Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.

It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.


That's the most chilling work-related statement I've
seen in almost 40 years working in mainframes.

Are you really saying end of life for z/OS and z/VSE?
Because I see IBM continuing support of zSeries in the
forms of z/VM and Linux.

Kind regards,

--
-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

** Spring Promotion **
10% - 15% off for classes booked by April 30, 2007
  to be taught by September 30, 2007
Call or email for details.
** Spring Promotion **



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: The Sky is indeed Falling

[Ed Gould]

On Apr 14, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Phil Payne wrote:


Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.

It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.

http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html


--SNIP-

Good job Phil. WIthout taking sides. Thanks,

Ed
 


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

The Sky is indeed Falling

[Phil Payne]

Forget PSI.  Forget Fundamental. And forget PWD.

It's about zSeries End of Life, and how to control the collapse.

http://www.isham-research.co.uk/ibm_vs_psi.html

-- 
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.co.uk
  +44 7833 654 800

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html