Re: Sending z/OS Events to Windows Server (AD)

2018-10-11 Thread Carlos Cordero
Ironstream is great at the moment of collect online events from Z...

But, be very carefully what and from where you collect, might be a not desired 
impact if the method is not proper set

De: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  en nombre de 
Christopher Y. Blaicher 
Enviado: jueves, 11 de octubre de 2018 09:51 a. m.
Para: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Asunto: Re: Sending z/OS Events to Windows Server (AD)

John,
I finally saw your email.  As someone pointed out, there are a number of 
commercial products available, Syncsort's Ironstream product being one of them. 
 Ironstream can send data to Splunk, Elastic and a number of other repositories 
using KAFKA. You were not clear on what was the application being used on the 
Windows machine.

Ironstream can collect many types of data including SMF, SYSLOG, SYSOUT, RMF, 
System Performance Statistics, and IMS data.  You can also write your own 
collectors and use our open API to get data to your destination.

The SMF, SYSLOG and SYSOUT collectors have filtering capability.  SMF data can 
be filtered by using a WHERE statement and the data fields sent can be limited 
by using INCLUDE statements.

Chris Blaicher
Technical Architect
Syncsort, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2018 6:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Sending z/OS Events to Windows Server

I have a need to recognize certain events (creation of a file, completion of a 
JOB, etc) and send basic information about each event to a Windows process near 
real-time.

The Windows process would be a RESTful web server deployed on the Intranet 
alongside the z/OS box.

I have been out of the SYSPROG loop for quite a while, but I seem to recall 
that the SMF exits are a good place to detect these events.  But I know that 
the SMF exits can't do anything involving a WAIT, so the only thing the exit 
could do would be to post the information to another address space 
cross-memory.  That address space (STARTED task?) could then act as a HTTPS 
client and send the data to the outboard server.

I have been reading about the "z/OS Client Web Enablement Toolkit".  Would this 
work for the HTTPS client?

Whatever I create I need it to work in a vanilla z/OS environment V2.1 or after 
(no CICS etc.).

Does this sound like I am on track? Or is there a better way?

Note: only events for selected files/jobs would be transmitted.  Files would 
need to match a list of patterns, jobs to match a list of USERS.  So it would 
not be a high volume interface.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


MIPS Calculation formula

2016-11-30 Thread Carlos Cordero
Hi all,


Is there some formula to calculate a MIPS usage from the next kind of 
data-source and volumes estimation:


Data Type: SMF

Records procesed: X million

Data Volume:  Y GB

Total CP CPU utilization: Z seconds

Approx zIIP utilization: 1344 seconds

Avg CPU per record:  .0xy seconds


Data Type: SYSLOG

Records processed X million

Data volume: Y GB

Total CP CPU utilization: z seconds

Avg CPU per record: .xy seconds


Data Type: SYSOUT

Records processed X million

Data volume: Y GB

Total CP CPU utilization: z seconds

Avg CPU per record: .xy seconds



Thanks in advance.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: zIIP Processor availability Display

2016-11-25 Thread Carlos Cordero
Peter, you´re right..


I get the info from RMF monitor about zIIP usage.



Thanks



De: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  en nombre de Peter 
Hunkeler 
Enviado: viernes, 25 de noviembre de 2016 12:41 a. m.
Para: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Asunto: AW: zIIP Processor availability Display

>On a z12 Mainframe with two physical box, with 8 LPARS on a Sysplex 
>configuration and Coupling Facility option, there are 6 Lpars for production 
>and 2 Lpars for previous environment (development or test); how can I display 
>if zIIP processor are assigned or used by Lpars of previous environments?


If you have RMF, the CPC report in RMF III or the CPU Activity report from the 
RMF Postprocessor will show the zIIP assignment and usage by LPAR. I guess CMF 
has similar reports.


--
Peter Hunkeler



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


zIIP Processor availability Display

2016-11-24 Thread Carlos Cordero
Hi all..


On a z12 Mainframe with two physical box, with 8 LPARS on a Sysplex 
configuration and Coupling Facility option, there are 6 Lpars for production 
and 2 Lpars for previous environment (development or test); how can I display 
if zIIP processor are assigned or used by Lpars of previous environments?


I hope my question is clear.



Thanks in advance

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


MQSeries for z/OS V7.0.1 Docs

2016-10-29 Thread Carlos Cordero
Hi everybody,


On a long search on IBM sites, I didn´t find a PDF documentation about 
Websphere MQSeries for z/OS Messages and Codes.


Somebody has/know where to find it?



Thanks.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


SMF type 119 to catch TN3270

2015-11-09 Thread Carlos Cordero
Hi all,
 
The SMF 119, subtype 20,21,22 and 23 catch events from telnet activitie; but I 
didn't see wich of these subtypes and theri corresponding offsets can provide 
me the information of the resource (file/DSN name) involved on the sesión, is 
this aloowed trough these subtypes?.
 
 
Thanks. 
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: SMF type 119 to catch TN3270

2015-11-09 Thread Carlos Cordero
What about subtype 22 & 23?
 

 
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 14:37:46 -0800
> From: charl...@mcn.org
> Subject: Re: SMF type 119 to catch TN3270
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> 
> TN3270 is what Comm Server calls "Telnet SNA" and is recorded in subtypes 20
> and 21.
> 
> There are no "files and DS names" involved -- at least not that Comm Server
> deems worthy of including in SMF.
> 
> Do you mean files and DS names referenced by the user during his TSO
> session? Only normal RACF audit and violation events.
> 
> Do you mean files and DS names for FTP? Recorded in subtypes 3 and 70.
> 
> Do you mean for TSO IND$FILE transfers? Sorry, no IBM component records any
> audit information for IND$FILE (other than RACF events as above). My
> employer's audit product for IND$FILE, IND$defender, is mentioned briefly
> here:
> https://www.correlog.com/news-and-events/news2015-SIEM-Agent-IBM-z-OS.html 
> 
> Charles
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Carlos Cordero
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 1:05 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: SMF type 119 to catch TN3270
> 
> Hi all,
>  
> The SMF 119, subtype 20,21,22 and 23 catch events from telnet activitie; but
> I didn't see wich of these subtypes and theri corresponding offsets can
> provide me the information of the resource (file/DSN name) involved on the
> sesión, is this aloowed trough these subtypes?.
>  
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


SMF (MAN) FileSample Request

2015-06-30 Thread Carlos Cordero
Colleagues,
 
Did somebody have a SMF file simple storing records for:
 
 - FTP activity for record 118, 119
 - IND$FILE activity from records 30  32
 - DB2 Activity (I´m not sure which records)
 - DB2 thru RACF security management
 
 
If so, please can anybody share me a ftp to download?
 
Thanks a lot
 
 

 
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request

2015-06-30 Thread Carlos Cordero
What I need is a SMF sample file with already records stored of the types I 
sent.
 
Because on my installation there is no activated  30,32 and DB2 SMF record; and 
there is no DB2 Security administration over RACF
 
I need a samples of those events thru SMF
 
 
 
Thanks

 
 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:15:33 -0700
 From: stars...@mindspring.com
 Subject: Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 What are you asking?  I am not sure I understand.
 
 Do you mean you want to extract SMF records for 118 119 30 32 101 and 102
 and put them some place?
 
 If so the IBM IFASMPDP program should be sufficient.  Once you offload to a
 file you can send it anywhere you like.
 
 The JCL and control cards are in the SMF Manual  SA22-7630-26
 
 
  http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/library/bkserv/
 
 Lizette
 
  -Original Message-
  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
  On Behalf Of Carlos Cordero
  Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:08 AM
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  Subject: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
  
  Colleagues,
  
  Did somebody have a SMF file simple storing records for:
  
   - FTP activity for record 118, 119
   - IND$FILE activity from records 30  32
   - DB2 Activity (I´m not sure which records)
   - DB2 thru RACF security management
  
  
  If so, please can anybody share me a ftp to download?
  
  Thanks a lot
  
  
  
  
  
  --
  For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
 to
  lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request

2015-06-30 Thread Carlos Cordero
Thanks Cheryl, I will follow thru that channel
 
 
Regards
 
 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 14:08:43 -0400
 From: che...@watsonwalker.com
 Subject: Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 Hello Carlos,
 
 If you’re an IBM BP as Andre mentions, then you might also belong to IBM
 PartnerWorld. One of the really nice things that IBM does for ISVs is to
 provide us with SMF records from new releases, and you can download them
 from the PWD site. The records you're looking for might be there.
 
 Best regards,
 Cheryl
 
 
 Cheryl Watson
 Watson  Walker, Inc.
 100 Central Ave, Suite 1013
 Sarasota, FL 34236
 P-941-924-6565, F-941-924-4892
 www.watsonwalker.com
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
 Behalf Of Andre Massena
 Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 2:04 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
 
 Ola Carlos,
 
 why do you not tell people that you are a Systems Integrator / IBM BP and
 perhaps people will be more amenable to your requests?
 
 
 Cordialement
 
 
 Andre
 
 
 
  Message d'origine 
 De : Lizette Koehler stars...@mindspring.com À :
 IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Objet : Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request Date :
 30/06/2015 19:51:18 CEST
 
 I am not sure shops can share their data.
 
 However, did you look at that layout for the SMF record in the Manual? 
 
 What are you doing with these records? Are you building a tool/db?
 
 If you download the DAF tool from cbttape.org it shows how to handle all IBM
 SMF records. It might be helpful for your process.
 
 
 
 Lizette
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
  On Behalf Of Carlos Cordero
  Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:31 AM
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  Subject: Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
  
  What I need is a SMF sample file with already records stored of the 
  types
 I
  sent.
  
  Because on my installation there is no activated 30,32 and DB2 SMF
 record;
  and there is no DB2 Security administration over RACF
  
  I need a samples of those events thru SMF
  
  
  
  Thanks
  
  
   Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:15:33 -0700
   From: stars...@mindspring.com
   Subject: Re: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
   To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  
   What are you asking? I am not sure I understand.
  
   Do you mean you want to extract SMF records for 118 119 30 32 101 
   and
   102 and put them some place?
  
   If so the IBM IFASMPDP program should be sufficient. Once you 
   offload to a file you can send it anywhere you like.
  
   The JCL and control cards are in the SMF Manual SA22-7630-26
  
  
   http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/library/bkserv/
  
   Lizette
  
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
[mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carlos Cordero
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 10:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SMF (MAN) FileSample Request
   
Colleagues,
   
Did somebody have a SMF file simple storing records for:
   
- FTP activity for record 118, 119
- IND$FILE activity from records 30  32
- DB2 Activity (I´m not sure which records)
- DB2 thru RACF security management
   
   
If so, please can anybody share me a ftp to download?
   
Thanks a lot
   
   
   
   
   
--
--
-- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
send email
   to
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
   
   -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, 
   send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO 
   IBM-MAIN
  
  --
  For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
  email
 to
  lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
 to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
 to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


IND$FILE Resource Log Monitoring

2015-06-11 Thread Carlos Cordero
Colleagues,
 
Did somebody has implemented a process for monitor/log  IND$FILE command 
activity focussed on file transmission thru 3270 emulators?, maybe with beta88 
software?
 
Or it must a home-made ad-hoc customization outside of beta88 software?
 
What I specifically searching for is to detect the file transfer activity 
executed from commands given on emulators.
 
 
Many Thanks.
 
 
 
 
 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 05:59:55 -0400
 From: 000248cce9f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
 Subject: Re: Volume consideration and migration for z / OS 2.1
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 Lots of info here:
 http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/installation/
  
 Couldn't get the Data Sheet to open(404) maybe it's being updated.
  
  
  
 In a message dated 6/6/2015 2:27:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
 justmainfra...@gmail.com writes:
 
 Any  advise on the above would be  appreciated.
 
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: IND$FILE Resource Log Monitoring

2015-06-11 Thread Carlos Cordero
Both..
 
 
Thanks
 
 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:58:12 -0700
 From: stars...@mindspring.com
 Subject: Re: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 Are you looking for REAL time or after the fact monitoring?
 
 Lizette
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Carlos Cordero jccorde...@hotmail.com
 Sent: Jun 11, 2015 10:20 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
 
 Colleagues,
  
 Did somebody has implemented a process for monitor/log  IND$FILE command 
 activity focussed on file transmission thru 3270 emulators?, maybe with 
 beta88 software?
  
 Or it must a home-made ad-hoc customization outside of beta88 software?
  
 What I specifically searching for is to detect the file transfer activity 
 executed from commands given on emulators.
  
  
 Many Thanks.
  
  
  
  
  Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 05:59:55 -0400
  From: 000248cce9f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
  Subject: Re: Volume consideration and migration for z / OS 2.1
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  
  Lots of info here:
  http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/installation/
   
  Couldn't get the Data Sheet to open(404) maybe it's being updated.
   
   
   
  In a message dated 6/6/2015 2:27:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
  justmainfra...@gmail.com writes:
  
  Any  advise on the above would be  appreciated.
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: IND$FILE Resource Log Monitoring

2015-06-11 Thread Carlos Cordero
Mr. Kolusu, thanks for the info, I will check
 
 
Regards
 
 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:20:39 -0700
 From: skol...@us.ibm.com
 Subject: Re: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 Carlos,
 
 Here is a link to a previous discussion on IBM-MAIN that might help you. 
 
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bit.listserv.ibm-main/zXHbn7rTp3M
 
 
 Thanks,
 Kolusu
 
 IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU wrote on 
 06/11/2015 11:01:12 AM:
 
  From: Carlos Cordero jccorde...@hotmail.com
  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  Date: 06/11/2015 11:03 AM
  Subject: Re: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
  Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
  
  Both..
  
  
  Thanks
  
   Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:58:12 -0700
   From: stars...@mindspring.com
   Subject: Re: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
   To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
   
   Are you looking for REAL time or after the fact monitoring?
   
   Lizette
   
   
   -Original Message-
   From: Carlos Cordero jccorde...@hotmail.com
   Sent: Jun 11, 2015 10:20 AM
   To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
   Subject: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
   
   Colleagues,

   Did somebody has implemented a process for monitor/log  IND$FILE 
  command activity focussed on file transmission thru 3270 emulators?,
  maybe with beta88 software?

   Or it must a home-made ad-hoc customization outside of beta88 
 software?

   What I specifically searching for is to detect the file transfer 
  activity executed from commands given on emulators.


   Many Thanks.




Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2015 05:59:55 -0400
From: 000248cce9f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Volume consideration and migration for z / OS 2.1
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Lots of info here:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/os/zos/installation/

Couldn't get the Data Sheet to open(404) maybe it's being updated.



In a message dated 6/6/2015 2:27:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
justmainfra...@gmail.com writes:

Any  advise on the above would be  appreciated.
   
   --
   For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
   send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
  --
  For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
  send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN


Re: IND$FILE Resource Log Monitoring

2015-06-11 Thread Carlos Cordero
John, I very appreciate your help. 
 
If you´re available to share with me your code, ok I can put this on 
development environment and customize it and testing.
 
 
 
I´m in touch.
 

 
 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:31:47 -0500
 From: john.archie.mck...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: IND$FILE Resource Log  Monitoring
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 
 On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Carlos Cordero jccorde...@hotmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Both..
 
 
 ​I have some code with I can share which _might_ be of some help. But it
 may (most likely _will_) violate your shop's standards. Or cause your boss
 to say no. The IBM IND$FILE function basically runs a TSO command​ from
 the READY prompt. The 3270 emulator talks with this command via the 3270
 data stream, much like a screen scraping application. What my code does
 is front end the normal IBM code, and simply creates a WTO message to
 send to the z/OS SYSLOG. The WTO contains the TSO id and the TSO command,
 along with a S or E for Start of transfer and End of transfer. This is
 sufficient to tell you who did the transfer and the name of the z/OS data
 set involved.
 
 It also, if it is APF authorized, makes the TSO session non-swappable.
 
 Another possibility is to set up RACF auditing on the IND$FILE command, but
 that (in and of itself) will not tell you the name of the DSN involved.
 
 
 
 
  Thanks
 
 
 -- 
 Yoda of Borg, we are. Futile, resistance is, yes. Assimilated, you will be.
 
 My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells down by the
 seashore.
 If someone tell you that nothing is impossible:
 Ask him to dribble a football.
 
 He's about as useful as a wax frying pan.
 
 10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 Megaphone
 
 Maranatha! 
 John McKown
 
 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
  

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN