Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Hi Phil, If you are not interested in looking at videos to see the flow in action, the complete documentation (with Helps you see on the display) are on IBM Documentation. The "Model" function can be found here: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=wizard-model-page -Marna WALLE z/OS System Install and Upgrade IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
This is why I like the way Linux handles things. I can have two different Linux installs, as along as I have two different partitions or disks on which to put those installs. And then the user data is off in /home which can be yet another single or group of partitions on one or more disks. By doing this, this way, if I have a problem after maint, getting a level of Linux to start, I can reboot, and select the "old" install and come back up. VM doing this kind of thing is wonderful. It makes for using VM to build a new VM, boot it as a second level machine to test it Now, if I were only a VM sysprog Windows, I always have to make a full back up of the "user data area" and any third party software, to do an install, because M/S assumes they own the disk drive(s) -- well effectively from where I sit/stand. It makes it interesting to have a dual boot machine. First you install Windows, then you install Linux. Do it the other way and Linux is no longer bootable. Ah, then there is the "live" CD|DVD|thumb drive And one can recover that way as well. So I hope IBM is looking more at the Linux world for how to do installs than Microsoft's way of doing things. Steve Thompson On 5/30/2023 4:58 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: FWIW (perhaps nothing), IBM solved the upgrade problem ~30 years ago for VM by separating the operating system nucleus (kernel) from the filesystem. That is, you can have multiple copies of the VM nucleus on various CMS (the end-user environment) minidisks, which CP (the hypervisor) knows how to read. To upgrade, you build a new VM nucleus on a new minidisk, then tell the standalone loader to IPL from that. If it fails, you just swap it back and go figure out the problem. It's super-slick. Not realistic for z/OS, I suspect, though I don't know enough to know why. And it was done as sort of a skunkworks project by David Boloker and Rich Corak in what was left of the Cambridge Scientific Center, in offices above the Copley Place mall IIRC. I doubt anyone could get away with that today; even at the time, I was surprised it was accepted into the base. Windows has gotten better about upgrading, although, like most of you, I rarely upgrade a machine-usually by the time I'm forced to consider a new version, it's time for new hardware. But Windows upgrade difficulties mostly reflect the fact that the data isn't well separated from the OS: I still have a folder on my current machine called "From", where is the name of a machine four machines ago. This is itself a Bad Thing. Microsoft has tried, but then there's all the under c:\users\phsiii\Documents\ that isn't MY data, and cannot just be copied to a new machine. They should have separated "user data" and "installed stuff data" better. (I suspect the Registry was supposed to be the end-all here, but of course isn't.) It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's a bad thing at all, in principle-except for the existing shops who have zero time/resources/interest in "fixing" their configuration. Could all the PARMLIB stuff be pushed into one standard layout? Probably. Would it be easy? No, and it would make a lot of shops very nervous, I'm sure-"Yeah, Bob is the one who set that up before his heart attack, and nobody really knows the dependencies. I'm not touching it!" This isn't ideal, obviously, but it means that when an incremental change is needed, it can be made and tested in isolation, vs. some sort of big-bang reorg that's high-risk. It still sounds to me like the real problem here is that there hasn't been enough thought put into the impact on existing customers from the changes to install/upgrade beyond "Use z/OSMF". P.S. "Just watch this video"-sorry, that isn't how I (or, I suspect, many of the old-timers on here) do things. I don't have time to watch some video: I want a manual that explains the thing, so I can flip back and forth, add Post-Its, and/or copy/print excerpts. This is a growing trend that ignores that videos are a SLOW and inefficient way to learn many things; I attribute their rise to the fact that most people can't write a coherent sentence to save their lives, but they sure can talk. ...phsiii (sounding grumpy on a virtual Monday) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Very true - and that isn't just Windows. MS Office anyone? It seems like every new release they tape the user interface icons and menu items to scrabble pieces, then give them a good shake in a hat, pulling them out randomly to build the next user interface. OK, it isn't that bad but they do seem to go out of their way to hide things. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:28 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able to find things because they aren't where they used to be. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!txf32ReslXXp6ZP9iT8NQlaKt9dGK_gpbJIzec2C9BeqAJzVlqqb0VvB0uhy3XKPTpkz3VyYpRxj7vALZw$ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good > luck. > > How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID > you could install like android. > > I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more > hunting thru libraries. > > z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I > can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with > SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release > and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede > to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Tom Brennan > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and > Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For > example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look > in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while > annoying) updates itself from time to time. > > z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that > would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the > other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. > > On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: >> I have to disagree. >> >> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average >> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? >> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to >> actually perform? >> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just >> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries >> past an RSU level? >> >> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always >> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. >> >> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. >> >> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything >> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. >> >> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. >> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively >> >> >&
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
I haven't installed windows since 3.1, but I always do as fresh install of ArcalOS and Linux on a spare logical drive, using a RYO script to deploy my customization. That includes a lot of desktop customization for ArcaOS. For z/OS, you should be able to keep your local mods in a PDS, rework if necessary and apply the in the new CSI. Zap outside of SMP? Not my monkeys, not my circus. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF Funny! Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX company and the product, not necessarily that number of X's but could be :) You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new disk. And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I ran it) completely replaced the previous OS. I can barely remember, but before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res pack. So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before outside of SMPE, could live on. On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote: > Tom, > > I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past > year that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier > to just low level the hard drive and start over. Could I have fixed 1 or > both of them? I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner > workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong. Just some generic > "something broke" message. Kind of hard to actually fix something when > that's the totality of the error message. > > But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I > won't mention any names or acronyms). One recent episode was when I called > the vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we > can't even make sense of the install as documented. Here, let me walk you > through my process." His worked, but it was nothing like the document. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Tom Brennan > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember > the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the > support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing > this particular product." :) > > ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, > IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. > How would an installation program find those libraries/members to > automatically make the required mods? Not easy. > > Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe > we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. > > On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: >> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good >> luck. >> >> How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID >> you could install like android. >> >> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more >> hunting thru libraries. >> >> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I >> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with >> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS >> release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to >> concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. >> >> Ms Terri E Shaffer >> Senior Systems Engineer, >> z/OS Support: >> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter >> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) >> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Tom Brennan >> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF >> >> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the >> content is safe. >> >> >> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and >> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? Fo
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
FWIW (perhaps nothing), IBM solved the upgrade problem ~30 years ago for VM by separating the operating system nucleus (kernel) from the filesystem. That is, you can have multiple copies of the VM nucleus on various CMS (the end-user environment) minidisks, which CP (the hypervisor) knows how to read. To upgrade, you build a new VM nucleus on a new minidisk, then tell the standalone loader to IPL from that. If it fails, you just swap it back and go figure out the problem. It's super-slick. Not realistic for z/OS, I suspect, though I don't know enough to know why. And it was done as sort of a skunkworks project by David Boloker and Rich Corak in what was left of the Cambridge Scientific Center, in offices above the Copley Place mall IIRC. I doubt anyone could get away with that today; even at the time, I was surprised it was accepted into the base. Windows has gotten better about upgrading, although, like most of you, I rarely upgrade a machine-usually by the time I'm forced to consider a new version, it's time for new hardware. But Windows upgrade difficulties mostly reflect the fact that the data isn't well separated from the OS: I still have a folder on my current machine called "From", where is the name of a machine four machines ago. This is itself a Bad Thing. Microsoft has tried, but then there's all the under c:\users\phsiii\Documents\ that isn't MY data, and cannot just be copied to a new machine. They should have separated "user data" and "installed stuff data" better. (I suspect the Registry was supposed to be the end-all here, but of course isn't.) It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's a bad thing at all, in principle-except for the existing shops who have zero time/resources/interest in "fixing" their configuration. Could all the PARMLIB stuff be pushed into one standard layout? Probably. Would it be easy? No, and it would make a lot of shops very nervous, I'm sure-"Yeah, Bob is the one who set that up before his heart attack, and nobody really knows the dependencies. I'm not touching it!" This isn't ideal, obviously, but it means that when an incremental change is needed, it can be made and tested in isolation, vs. some sort of big-bang reorg that's high-risk. It still sounds to me like the real problem here is that there hasn't been enough thought put into the impact on existing customers from the changes to install/upgrade beyond "Use z/OSMF". P.S. "Just watch this video"-sorry, that isn't how I (or, I suspect, many of the old-timers on here) do things. I don't have time to watch some video: I want a manual that explains the thing, so I can flip back and forth, add Post-Its, and/or copy/print excerpts. This is a growing trend that ignores that videos are a SLOW and inefficient way to learn many things; I attribute their rise to the fact that most people can't write a coherent sentence to save their lives, but they sure can talk. ...phsiii (sounding grumpy on a virtual Monday) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
And not just with every new release! These days Windows (at least how I run it) decides to put on changes whenever it feels like it. But if you're talking about the default Windows Start Menu, I haven't used it since Windows 7. With a new Windows install that's probably the first thing I replace with an outside program. On 5/30/2023 1:28 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote: How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able to find things because they aren't where they used to be. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of e
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
ObQohelet1:9 I vaguely recall reading a diatribe against the degeneracy of the younger generation, written in ancient Greece. There have always been people who didn't want to learn. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:24 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: > > People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the > positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed > very quickly (1 > month) What should IBM and us users be doing? > >1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >just copy the libraries?) >3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >longer needed and could just be set to "default") >4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >definitions. >6. > > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? > > Colin > Examine the current system, create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <http://www.aciworldwide.com/> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Funny! Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX company and the product, not necessarily that number of X's but could be :) You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new disk. And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I ran it) completely replaced the previous OS. I can barely remember, but before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res pack. So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before outside of SMPE, could live on. On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote: Tom, I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just low level the hard drive and start over. Could I have fixed 1 or both of them? I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong. Just some generic "something broke" message. Kind of hard to actually fix something when that's the totality of the error message. But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't mention any names or acronyms). One recent episode was when I called the vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't even make sense of the install as documented. Here, let me walk you through my process." His worked, but it was nothing like the document. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
I don't see an FMID issue with SMP/E. I see an issue with being able to install and remove service selectively, but can you have a reliable system if they take that away? The classical "reboot" and "reinstall" solutions to windows issues are not acceptable on a 24x365 enterprise server. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > I have to disagree. > > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average > customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to > actually perform? > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add > 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an > RSU level? > > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always > provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. > > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. > > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else > IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. > > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. > Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively > > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Mike Schwab > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: >> >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed >> very quickly (1 >> month) What should IBM and us users be doing? >> >> 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >> just copy the libraries?) >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >> longer needed and could just be set to "default") >> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >> the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >> definitions. >> 6. >>
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able to find things because they aren't where they used to be. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good > luck. > > How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID > you could install like android. > > I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more > hunting thru libraries. > > z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I > can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with > SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release > and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede > to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Tom Brennan > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac > machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I > don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms > are in standard directories. Even my Android (while > annoying) updates itself from time to time. > > z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that > would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the > other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. > > On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: >> I have to disagree. >> >> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average >> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? >> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to >> actually perform? >> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just >> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries >> past an RSU level? >> >> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always >> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. >> >> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. >> >> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything >> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. >> >> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. >> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively >> >> >> Ms Terri E Shaffer >> Senior Systems Engineer, >> z/OS Support: >> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter >> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) >> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com >> >> -Original Message- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On >> Behalf Of Mike Schwab >> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF >> >> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the >> content is safe. >> >> >> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: >>> >>> People feel that z/OSMF is n
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Tom, I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just low level the hard drive and start over. Could I have fixed 1 or both of them? I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong. Just some generic "something broke" message. Kind of hard to actually fix something when that's the totality of the error message. But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't mention any names or acronyms). One recent episode was when I called the vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't even make sense of the install as documented. Here, let me walk you through my process." His worked, but it was nothing like the document. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good > luck. > > How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID > you could install like android. > > I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more > hunting thru libraries. > > z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I > can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with > SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release > and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede > to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Tom Brennan > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and > Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For > example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look > in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while > annoying) updates itself from time to time. > > z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that > would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the > other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. > > On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: >> I have to disagree. >> >> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average >> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? >> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to >> actually perform? >> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just >> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries >> past an RSU level? >> >> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always >> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. >> >> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. >> >> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything >> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. >> >> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. >> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively >> >> >> Ms Terri E Shaffer >> Senior Systems Engineer, >> z/OS Support: >> ACIWorldwi
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
"I've known people for whom using Excel is a struggle." Ha ha! Add me to that list. It could be the original PC's and Unix/Linux were also more like a tailored suit, but then things like plug-and-play and better install programs were created to hide and standardize. Like you say, that was required for the target audience. But as a side effect, it also made things easy for experienced users. On 5/30/2023 10:36 AM, John McKown wrote: Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not interested in technology, just using something. I've known people for whom using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter. Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo. On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - just copy the libraries?) 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no longer needed and could just be set to "default") 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not interested in technology, just using something. I've known people for whom using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter. Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo. On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good > luck. > > How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID > you could install like android. > > I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more > hunting thru libraries. > > z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I > can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF > with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS > release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to > concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Tom Brennan > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac > machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, > I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and > parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while > annoying) updates itself from time to time. > > z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that > would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on > the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. > > On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > > I have to disagree. > > > > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an > average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? > > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to > actually perform? > > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and > just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply > libraries past an RSU level? > > > > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always > provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. > > > > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn > anymore. > > > > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything > else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. > > > > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the > mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work > effectively > > > > > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > > Senior Systems Engineer, > > z/OS Support: > > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > > Behalf Of Mike Schwab > > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know > the content is safe. > > > > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice > wrote: > >> > >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the > >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed > >> very quickly (1 > >> month) What should IBM and us users be doing? > >> > >> 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? > >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST > level of > >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use > SMP/E - > >> just copy the libraries?) > >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters > are no > >> longer
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed. I do remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular product." :) ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting. And you also need to look at LOADxx, IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically make the required mods? Not easy. Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be. Like Lionel implied, maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned. On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - just copy the libraries?) 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no longer needed and could just be set to "default") 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in definitions. 6. Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? Colin Examine the current system, create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? -- For IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck. How many FMID components make up core z/OS? Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you could install like android. I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more hunting thru libraries. z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > I have to disagree. > > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average > customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to > actually perform? > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add > 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an > RSU level? > > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always > provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. > > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. > > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else > IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. > > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. > Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively > > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Mike Schwab > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: >> >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed >> very quickly (1 >> month) What should IBM and us users be doing? >> >> 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >> just copy the libraries?) >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >> longer needed and could just be set to "default") >> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >> the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >> definitions. >> 6. >> >> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? >> >> Colin >> > Examine the current system, > create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] > <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may > contain confid
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Maybe actually teach the new sysprog's how MVS works? Like real knowledge? Ah, why do THAT when there are s many better shortcuts to give them to screw it all up. Glad my time in this gets shorter every day. Doug Fuerst -- Original Message -- From: "Colin Paice" To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu Sent: 30-May-23 10:04:12 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - just copy the libraries?) 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no longer needed and could just be set to "default") 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in definitions. 6. Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? Colin On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller < 0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: Classification: Confidential Agreed! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shaffer, Terri Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality. I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that can only go so far. For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out? RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC... Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes. Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company. And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and started again.. H z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has worked for 25+ years, like I want to copy the old config settings from a previous z/OS install. Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I install z/OS? I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible. I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!! Its just like windows, when I select advanced install option. In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement. I love the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too.. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Jack Zukt wrote, in part: >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move >you away from the need to know what you are doing. That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting in places" and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can't really dispute it. In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really did
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Perhaps we've put the cart before the horse. Define and then transition to a standard environment and then provide the tooling to manage it. Trying to do it the other way around has taken years and too much stress. The transition won't be easy but if there is a benefit it will happen - migration tools can then be created to take the installations current implementation and standardize it. The *challenge* will be making sure that installations with special requirements, including ISV products, can be easily accommodated. Lionel B. Dyck <>< Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com Github: https://github.com/lbdyck “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Brennan Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:20 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: > I have to disagree. > > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average > customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to > actually perform? > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add > 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an > RSU level? > > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always > provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. > > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. > > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else > IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. > > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. > Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively > > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Mike Schwab > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: >> >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed >> very quickly (1 >> month) What should IBM and us users be doing? >> >> 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >> just copy the libraries?) >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >> longer needed and could just be set to "default") >> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >> the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >> definitions. >> 6. >> >> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? >> >> Colin >> > Examine the current system, > create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send > email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] > <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may > contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information > is intended solely for t
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training? For example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms are in standard directories. Even my Android (while annoying) updates itself from time to time. z/OSMF isn't the cure though. System standardization might be, but that would still include IBM dictating how things are done. We accept that on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems. On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote: I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - just copy the libraries?) 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no longer needed and could just be set to "default") 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in definitions. 6. Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? Colin Examine the current system, create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
I have to disagree. First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade? Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually perform? Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an RSU level? One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop. Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore. Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks. But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe. Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Mike Schwab Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: > > People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the > positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed > very quickly (1 > month) What should IBM and us users be doing? > >1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >just copy the libraries?) >3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >longer needed and could just be set to "default") >4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >definitions. >6. > > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? > > Colin > Examine the current system, create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice wrote: > > People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive > sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 > month) What should IBM and us users be doing? > >1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? >2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of >code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - >just copy the libraries?) >3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no >longer needed and could just be set to "default") >4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? >5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... >how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of >the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in >definitions. >6. > > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? > > Colin > Examine the current system, create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1 month) What should IBM and us users be doing? 1. Making better use of existing tools? Eclipse ? 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E - just copy the libraries?) 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no longer needed and could just be set to "default") 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl? 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ... how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of the definitions. It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in definitions. 6. Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction? Colin On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller < 0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Classification: Confidential > > Agreed! > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Shaffer, Terri > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust > the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing > email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] > > While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I > don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality. > > I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design > that can only go so far. > > For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many > Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out? RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC... > > Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes. > Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of > windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company. > And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said, > your reset your phone and started again.. H > > z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that > has worked for 25+ years, like I want to copy the old config settings from > a previous z/OS install. Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every > time I install z/OS? I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, > now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible. > > I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which > forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps > or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!! Its just like windows, when > I select advanced install option. > > In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement. I love > the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use > it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too.. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -----Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Phil Smith III > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > Jack Zukt wrote, in part: > >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move > >you away from the need to know what you are doing. > > That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? > Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting in places" > and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've > been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I > can't really dispute it. > > In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil > and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing. > Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. > > On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a > reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did > I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't > tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And > 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as lon
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Classification: Confidential Agreed! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shaffer, Terri Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality. I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that can only go so far. For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out? RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC... Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes. Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company. And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and started again.. H z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has worked for 25+ years, like I want to copy the old config settings from a previous z/OS install. Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I install z/OS? I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible. I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!! Its just like windows, when I select advanced install option. In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement. I love the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too.. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Jack Zukt wrote, in part: >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move >you away from the need to know what you are doing. That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting in places" and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can't really dispute it. In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try. and Colin Paice asked: >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations? That's the point I made before: with Windows, you're forced into a fairly standard configuration. With z/OS, it's a bit late (by almost six decades): sites aren't going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of them), sure. But that doesn't really help at this point, alas. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <http://www.aciworldwide.com/> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Personally I think z/OSMF is a big step in the wrong direction for IBM, especially since they made it a the only choice. Before them it was also pretty much just a single choice, but you had a lot of flexibility that you no longer have with the newer method. There appears to be no good reason to discontinue ServerPac and for the small boxes, z/OSMF is excruciatingly slow. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
A significant difference between z/OS and Windows environments is the management philosophy in the z/OS environment that all the core code that controls the system behavior and integrity can (and should) be completely isolated from application and third-party code in data sets that are protected, and that the hardware architecture and SAF product enforce that code separation. Acceptable maintenance practices only allow installation of system code at times of the installation's choice on non-production data sets, and via means (SMP/E) that allow the affected data sets and the status of every module before and after the change to be known. If zOSMF ever becomes such a black box that that SysProgs lose the clarity of what data sets must be carefully protected as critical to system integrity, that would be badness. Windows core system maintenance occurs mostly at the whims of Microsoft on a running system and there is no way to track what individual files or directories may be changed or easily undo individual changes. It is still possible for third-party product installs and maintenance to update files in directories shared with Windows core code or potentially modify Windows system files, and they can also update the same registry file that is essential to Windows operation. At least Windows asks for permission to proceed with a product installation, but if the product is one you need, the only choice is to respond "yes" and pray it doesn't change anything it ought not. This lack of positive protection over all Windows core code is why a Windows re-install is sometimes the best repair choice. The need under the PC architecture to support a wide variety of vendor-unique hardware devices with hardware vendor device drivers that run at the Windows kernel level is another major potential integrity exposure in Windows. Given the number of integrity exposures that Windows allows out of Microsoft's direct control, It's amazing Windows is as reliable as it is. Joel C. Ewing .On 5/27/23 04:39, Jack Zukt wrote: I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on z/OS. Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc. But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity then and I still do not like it now. This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and authorizations are staggering. Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way. But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done. But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative. There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices. Jack On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III wrote: Jack Zukt wrote, in part: The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you away from the need to know what you are doing. That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting in places” and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can’t really dispute it. In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t tell what failed? Not really, but, ag
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Have them read Introduction To The New Mainframe. Very much describes mainframes in DOS / Unix terms. On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 4:39 AM Jack Zukt wrote: > > I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being > able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on > z/OS. > Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with > problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how > things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right > direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a > few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc. > But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is > not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of > working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I > did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity > then and I still do not like it now. > This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be > a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and > authorizations are staggering. > Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age > than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my > much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way. > But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it > and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned > nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do > not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS > is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done. > But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative. > There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is > the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and > reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices. > Jack > > On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III wrote: > > > Jack Zukt wrote, in part: > > >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you > > >away from the need to know what you are doing. > > > > That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? > > Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting in places” > > and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve > > been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I > > can’t really dispute it. > > > > In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil > > and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. > > Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. > > > > On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a > > reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did > > I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t > > tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And > > 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try. > > > > and Colin Paice asked: > > >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations? > > > > That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly > > standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): > > sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful > > of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas. > > > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on z/OS. Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc. But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity then and I still do not like it now. This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and authorizations are staggering. Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way. But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done. But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative. There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices. Jack On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III wrote: > Jack Zukt wrote, in part: > >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you > >away from the need to know what you are doing. > > That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? > Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting in places” > and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve > been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I > can’t really dispute it. > > In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil > and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. > Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. > > On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a > reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did > I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t > tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And > 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try. > > and Colin Paice asked: > >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations? > > That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly > standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): > sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful > of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Terri: Right. That’s been my point from the start: while a noble effort, it’s not going to get there without putting a LOT of work into changing the underpinnings. This is trying to fix a foundation problem by spackling and painting over it. Since it’s not even being discussed—folks seem to be charging ahead and picking paint colors—I fear it is doomed to fail until/unless this is recognized. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don’t think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality. I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that can only go so far. For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out? RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC... Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes. Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company. And whats my backout if something doesn’t work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and started again.. H z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has worked for 25+ years, like I want to copy the old config settings from a previous z/OS install. Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I install z/OS? I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn’t possible. I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!! Its just like windows, when I select advanced install option. In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement. I love the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too.. Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Jack Zukt wrote, in part: >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move >you away from the need to know what you are doing. That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting in places” and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can’t really dispute it. In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try. and Colin Paice asked: >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations? That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Jack Zukt wrote, in part: >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you >away from the need to know what you are doing. That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting in places” and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can’t really dispute it. In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works. On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try. and Colin Paice asked: >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations? That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Classification: Confidential It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious! -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shaffer, Terri Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 11:52 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.] Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness! You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test system. And you learned actually what each process did. I have seen even today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do. This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily. Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works together. I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and maintenance was pretty much always done the same way. Build the jobs once, change Volsers, zones, etc and submit. No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's removed from the actual LPAR. And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in headlights start to occur! Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Hi Rob and Terri, I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum. From my POV, z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us. We have a very small system. 2 LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it. We build a new OS on one of them and clone it to the other and we're done. All z/OSMF is going to do for us is add complexity to a simple system. And I agree with Terri and Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking when z/OSMF breaks. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rob Schramm Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF See you are missing the point. If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process actually work. Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks every single time that somebody new touches it. And it's not standardized then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know... ad infinitum ad nauseam. So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a pain in the neck. And there will probably be some sort of compromise eventually. But for all the people that have these other processes, I think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack but doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once again I will disagree with your disagreement. Rob On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone > was a > 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a > consideration. > > So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of > layers to something that sound not be hard. Running thru screens vs > submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes. > > As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5 > and even OS/390, they have added a layer of complexity that eliminated > the KISS principle, sadly. > > So I have to disagree.. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Rob Schramm > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 4
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
What chaps me the most is that it's not a complete solution. It is being enhanced "on the fly", release-to-release, with customers as the testers. The z/OSMF Configuration Guide at the V2R5 level is 400+ pages; the z/OSMF Programming Guide at the V2R5 level is 1200+ pages! This is NOT a facility that one learns to use or modify quickly. Mike Shaw MVS/QuickRef Support Group Chicago-Soft, Ltd. On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 4:22 PM Phil Smith III wrote: > Harris Randy wrote, in part: > >I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe. > > >What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method > >(SERVERPAC) and force those of us with grey to learn something new > >when we well know how to use what we already have in place. And, a lot > >of us looking at retirement not t far away. > > Well, that one’s easy: Someone thinks z/OSMF does it all, so why would you > need two things that solve the same problem? Or, being more generous, > someone thinks z/OSMF can/will do it all, so… > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Harris Randy wrote, in part: >I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe. >What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method >(SERVERPAC) and force those of us with grey to learn something new >when we well know how to use what we already have in place. And, a lot >of us looking at retirement not t far away. Well, that one’s easy: Someone thinks z/OSMF does it all, so why would you need two things that solve the same problem? Or, being more generous, someone thinks z/OSMF can/will do it all, so… -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Beverly Caldwell wrote: >If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question? I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was, “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t have any grey hair yet?” This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig. I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator, which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle, as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of course. Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak of. And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the error…Good times. /s -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question? On Wed, May 24, 2023, 12:16 PM Colin Paice wrote: > For one IBM PP, they had a zosmf process for customising. It made the > trivial bits easier, and ignored the hard bits eg setting up SMS and RACF > definitions. Once configured I could not see how to change the > configuration. For setting up second instance you had to start from the > beginning. > > If z/osmf is the answer perhaps the configuration could have > novice/intermediate/ expert. For novice it should hide standard defaults > and show what you MUST configure. For expert it shows all options. Help > displays novice > / Intermediate / expert levels as well > Colin > > On Wed, May 24, 2023, 18:52 Shaffer, Terri < > 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness! > > > > You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The > old > > IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test > > system. And you learned actually what each process did. I have seen even > > today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow > > steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do. > > This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance > > install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, > volumes, > > catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily. > > > > Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build > > a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works > > together. I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and > > maintenance was pretty much always done the same way. Build the jobs > once, > > change Volsers, zones, etc and submit. > > > > No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's > > removed from the actual LPAR. And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in > > headlights start to occur! > > > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > > Senior Systems Engineer, > > z/OS Support: > > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > > Of Pommier, Rex > > Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know > the > > content is safe. > > > > > > Hi Rob and Terri, > > > > I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum. From my POV, > > z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us. We have a very small system. 2 > > LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it. We build a new OS on one > of > > them and clone it to the other and we're done. All z/OSMF is going to do > > for us is add complexity to a simple system. And I agree with Terri and > > Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go > looking > > when z/OSMF breaks. > > > > Rex > > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > > Of Rob Schramm > > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > > > See you are missing the point. > > > > If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process > > actually work. Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 > > hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that > there's a > > bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that > breaks > > every single time that somebody new touches it. And it's not > standardized > > then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you > know... > > ad infinitum ad nauseam. So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a > > pain in the neck. And there will probably be some sort of compromise > > eventually. But for all the people that have these other processes, I > > think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately > > make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software > and > > IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack > but > > doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once > > again I will disagree
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Terri Shaffer wrote, in part: >This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software >instance install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones >SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or >not easily. This is the problem Windows had to overcome. Remember when Windows applications were just DOS applications with a Windows GUI overlay? They were great until you did the wrong thing and fell off the edge into line-mode land. That’s where z/OSMF and ZOWE really are today. One of the things Windows was able to do was mandate some file structure, e.g., C:\Windows and (later) C:\Program Files (plus the Registry), that gave some of this required structure. (And yes, you COULD install it somewhere other than C:, but good luck with that—every case I’ve ever seen had weird problems with installing other software that expected C:.) There WAS nobody with 50 years of running Windows, terabytes of data, thousands of extant jobs, etc. – plus each new version of Windows was a fresh install, so it was your problem to get your data over to the new machine anyway. This is where I lose interest in z/OSMF and ZOWE: they’re great until you fall off the cliff, either through something you did or because your stuff wasn’t where/how it expected it to be. I don’t know that this is necessarily an intractable problem, but it’s certainly one that needs to be recognized and addressed. By IBM. And while it may be solvable, it would take a lot of research and investment, which I doubt can be justified at this point in the life of the product and IBM’s direction. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
For one IBM PP, they had a zosmf process for customising. It made the trivial bits easier, and ignored the hard bits eg setting up SMS and RACF definitions. Once configured I could not see how to change the configuration. For setting up second instance you had to start from the beginning. If z/osmf is the answer perhaps the configuration could have novice/intermediate/ expert. For novice it should hide standard defaults and show what you MUST configure. For expert it shows all options. Help displays novice / Intermediate / expert levels as well Colin On Wed, May 24, 2023, 18:52 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness! > > You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old > IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test > system. And you learned actually what each process did. I have seen even > today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow > steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do. > This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance > install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes, > catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily. > > Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build > a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works > together. I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and > maintenance was pretty much always done the same way. Build the jobs once, > change Volsers, zones, etc and submit. > > No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's > removed from the actual LPAR. And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in > headlights start to occur! > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Pommier, Rex > Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the > content is safe. > > > Hi Rob and Terri, > > I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum. From my POV, > z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us. We have a very small system. 2 > LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it. We build a new OS on one of > them and clone it to the other and we're done. All z/OSMF is going to do > for us is add complexity to a simple system. And I agree with Terri and > Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking > when z/OSMF breaks. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf > Of Rob Schramm > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF > > See you are missing the point. > > If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process > actually work. Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 > hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a > bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks > every single time that somebody new touches it. And it's not standardized > then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know... > ad infinitum ad nauseam. So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a > pain in the neck. And there will probably be some sort of compromise > eventually. But for all the people that have these other processes, I > think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately > make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and > IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack but > doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once > again I will disagree with your disagreement. > > Rob > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < > 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone > > was a > > 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a > > consideration. > > > > So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of > > layers to something that sound not be hard. Running thru screens vs > > submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes. > > >
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness! You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test system. And you learned actually what each process did. I have seen even today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do. This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily. Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works together. I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and maintenance was pretty much always done the same way. Build the jobs once, change Volsers, zones, etc and submit. No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's removed from the actual LPAR. And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in headlights start to occur! Ms Terri E Shaffer Senior Systems Engineer, z/OS Support: ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Hi Rob and Terri, I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum. From my POV, z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us. We have a very small system. 2 LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it. We build a new OS on one of them and clone it to the other and we're done. All z/OSMF is going to do for us is add complexity to a simple system. And I agree with Terri and Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking when z/OSMF breaks. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rob Schramm Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF See you are missing the point. If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process actually work. Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks every single time that somebody new touches it. And it's not standardized then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know... ad infinitum ad nauseam. So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a pain in the neck. And there will probably be some sort of compromise eventually. But for all the people that have these other processes, I think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack but doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once again I will disagree with your disagreement. Rob On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone > was a > 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a > consideration. > > So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of > layers to something that sound not be hard. Running thru screens vs > submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes. > > As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5 > and even OS/390, they have added a layer of complexity that eliminated > the KISS principle, sadly. > > So I have to disagree.. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Rob Schramm > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 4:27 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know > the content is safe. > > > I think the promise of zosmf is far beyond just a server pack replacement. > Yeah server pack was great for what it was but when it comes to the > grind of installing over and over and over again and the customization > the workflow features I believe really hold the promise to fixing what > is a continuously pain in the butt situati
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
Hi Rob and Terri, I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum. From my POV, z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us. We have a very small system. 2 LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it. We build a new OS on one of them and clone it to the other and we're done. All z/OSMF is going to do for us is add complexity to a simple system. And I agree with Terri and Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking when z/OSMF breaks. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Rob Schramm Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF See you are missing the point. If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process actually work. Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks every single time that somebody new touches it. And it's not standardized then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know... ad infinitum ad nauseam. So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a pain in the neck. And there will probably be some sort of compromise eventually. But for all the people that have these other processes, I think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack but doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once again I will disagree with your disagreement. Rob On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone > was a > 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a > consideration. > > So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of > layers to something that sound not be hard. Running thru screens vs > submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes. > > As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5 > and even OS/390, they have added a layer of complexity that eliminated > the KISS principle, sadly. > > So I have to disagree.. > > Ms Terri E Shaffer > Senior Systems Engineer, > z/OS Support: > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592) > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On > Behalf Of Rob Schramm > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 4:27 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: zOSMF > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know > the content is safe. > > > I think the promise of zosmf is far beyond just a server pack replacement. > Yeah server pack was great for what it was but when it comes to the > grind of installing over and over and over again and the customization > the workflow features I believe really hold the promise to fixing what > is a continuously pain in the butt situation. And hopefully they'll > continue to make it lighter and lighter. But the other part is the > distribution points and the packaging for distribution. Yeah I don't > really care how it happens whether it's a GUI or not. But in my view > this is steps in the right direction. > > I would point you to Ed's presentation on the workflow features that > were incorporated to E/JES2 installation. I really think there's something > here. > > Just my two cents. > > Rob Schramm > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 12:06 Michael Babcock wrote: > > > I agree. We use a permanent maintenance LPAR which is generally not up. > > With ServerPac, it didn't matter we could select it as the target > > from > our > > driving system. With z/OSMF, if run on the driving system, z/OSMF > wanted > > the target up and wanted to communicate with it via z/OSMF. Not > > good for us. > > > > Further, PSWI uses DSS to restore the datasets and ignores any > > DATACLAS parameters. Our OMVS datasets are all EXTADDR so we had to > > build a REXX EXEC to copy the OMVS datasets to a newly allocated > > OMVS > dataset with the > > EXTADDR attribute. Which by the way, what happens when the ROOT grows > > beyond 4GB? > > > > There were a number of other things we ran into which escape me at > > the moment. > > > > On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 10:15 AM Shaffer, Terri < > > 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu&
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
It's neither cultural or generational - it is that the younger generation has been coddled too much. In prior generations you did the job, or you found another one. And in that job, you learned how things were done and you did them and once you were proficient and understood the job then you were allowed/encouraged to contribute suggestions on how to improve things - but you had to earn that right. I first learned JCL then I learned how to do 'jobs' on a PDP-11 and then how to run a 'job' using a card deck on an IBM 360 model 30. All were different and I had to learn all of them. Just because one was different didn't mean it was better or worse - it was what it was. You learn things and become proficient in what you have. We also had to learn the culture at the company and fit in - not the other way around. Lionel B. Dyck <>< Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com Github: https://github.com/lbdyck “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 10:35 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers It's a cultural, generational thing also. I'm surprised I havent been asked for a cell phone app! Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
It's a cultural, generational thing also. I'm surprised I havent been asked for a cell phone app! Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
Your comments are worth much more than $.01. What these point-and-click developers are rapidly forgetting is that all their gui is doing is (predominantly) hiding the fact that the gui is just populating config files somewhere on the back end. What happens when the gui breaks and they have no idea where to look for the actual config information they need to tweak to fix the problem? Oh yeah, reinstall the software. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Lionel B. Dyck Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 8:22 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers Just my $0.01 (not worth $0.02). These developers who want/need access to z/OS and don't want to learn how to work with z/OS, don't they learn new things all the time - new IDE's, different operating systems (windows, macos, flavors of linux, unix, ...)? IMHO it is easier to learn the TSO/ISPF interface than some of the distributed interfaces (which change in small to large ways with upgrades). Just my curmudgeonly opinion after struggling with some challenges with using VSCode last weekend. Lionel B. Dyck <>< Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.lbdsoftware.com__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!qMIern87DQaJ6wdoN3_CxDN3Kzp3mhwd2cHvHABS1TtGEX_0Q1HKH2zXJQrFY3iEtYoxO_n-staJP_du$ Github: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/lbdyck__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!qMIern87DQaJ6wdoN3_CxDN3Kzp3mhwd2cHvHABS1TtGEX_0Q1HKH2zXJQrFY3iEtYoxO_n-svdCByV8$ “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you are, reputation merely what others think you are.” - - - John Wooden -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Friday, February 24, 2023 8:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers So I hope you all dont mind a general question... We have the common struggle of dealing with non-mainframe developers accessing z/OS (programs, jobs, DB2) and an attitude that we need to leave the mainframe. In trying to leverage our z/OS environment, might ZOWE (and the required zOSMF) provide a better transition and/or "access" to z/OS "processes"? We do not have zOSMF and ZOWE implemented. I was wondering if it may be worth while to do so. I hope my question makes sense. thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
To clarify, RECEIVE copies RELFILEs to TLIBs, APPLY uses the TLIBs and inline elements and ACCEPT uses the TLIBs and inline elements. Don't purge the TLIBs until you dne the last ACCEPT. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:29 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Agreed completely with your last 2 statements. The RELFILES aren't used in the running system, only for installation. Accepting base functions immediately is a good thing. :-) I don't see how SMP/E can use the TLIBs to populate the DLIBs. What would it copy across to the DLIB if, like in the OP's case, he wants to ACCEPT the base code but there have been multiple PTFs installed to the TLIBs, most likely some being PTFs on top of PTFs and maybe an APAR and/or USERMOD installed. Whereas, the SMPMCS and RELFILES would have the original code shipped with the functions and PTFs. I found this snippet in the SMP/E commands manual under ACCEPT which indicates that if the software was shipped in RELFILE format, that's where SMP/E goes to do the accepts. If the module is packaged in a link library (LKLIB) or a relative file (RELFILE),SMP/E copies the module to the distribution library. Any aliases specified for such a module must exist in the LKLIB or relative file in order to be copied. I am pretty sure he won't be able to ACCEPT DB2 11 unless/until he can find the missing RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files That is why I asked Kurt Q. to jump in (in another post, not tracked below). I *think* the DLIBs are built from the TLIBs, but I am not sure. If this is the case, then no problem will occur. If the RELFILES *are* needed for the accept, then the OP has a problem, he can *never* run a ACCEPT for the current software. The rollout process is calling for some RELFILES that no longer exist. For a fair amount of work (I do not believe it is worth the effort) the RELFILES could be recreated from the TLIBS. I can pretty much guarantee that the RELFILES *ARE NOT* used by the running system, so dummy RELFILES can be supplied to satisfy the requirements of the rollout process. Moral of the story. ACCEPT the base functions immediately after successful APPLY. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 11:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Allan, Are you sure the RELFILES aren't needed for the ACCEPT? In my old brain, I'm thinking that ACCEPT copies modules etc from the RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new ins
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
Hi Tom, Thanks for correcting my terminology. I wasn't confusing SMPTLIBs and target libraries. I was confusing SMPTLIBs and RELFILEs. I had it in my head that the RELFILEs were the critters created by the RECEIVE and subsequently used by the APPY and ACCEPT, rather than your correct thinking that RELFILEs populate the SMPTLIBs at RECEIVE. I was using TLIBs as an abbreviation for TargetLIBs, as in the TLIB=target, DLIB=distribution sense. I now know, bad form due to SMPTLIBs. I stand corrected, due to my bad use of abbreviations. The SMPTLIBs are used in ACCEPT processing (as well as APPLY). The distribution libraries are populated/updated from the SMPTLIBs, not the target libraries. Thanks for the correction. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 3:49 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:29:57 +, Pommier, Rex wrote: >I don't see how SMP/E can use the TLIBs to populate the DLIBs. What >would it copy across to the DLIB if, like in the OP's case, he wants to >ACCEPT the base code but there have been multiple PTFs installed to the >TLIBs, Are you confusing SMPTLIBs with Target libraries? TLIB refers to SMPTLIB data sets. APPLY never updates SMPTLIB data sets. It reads them when applying the SYSMOD that is packaged in RELFILE format is applied or when accepting such a SYSMOD. >Whereas, the SMPMCS and >RELFILES would have the original code shipped with the functions and PTFs. The SMPMCS and RELFILES are only used during RECEIVE processing. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:29:57 +, Pommier, Rex wrote: >I don't see how SMP/E can use the TLIBs to populate the DLIBs. What would it >copy >across to the DLIB if, like in the OP's case, he wants to ACCEPT the base code >but there >have been multiple PTFs installed to the TLIBs, Are you confusing SMPTLIBs with Target libraries? TLIB refers to SMPTLIB data sets. APPLY never updates SMPTLIB data sets. It reads them when applying the SYSMOD that is packaged in RELFILE format is applied or when accepting such a SYSMOD. >Whereas, the SMPMCS and >RELFILES would have the original code shipped with the functions and PTFs. The SMPMCS and RELFILES are only used during RECEIVE processing. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
There seems to be some confusion in this thread about RELFILEs and SMPTLIB data sets. RELFILEs are used only during RECEIVE processing and are not used after that. SMPTLIB data sets are created during RECEIVE processing and are used for both APPLY and ACCEPT. Neither are used by the running product. That is what the target libraries are for. In this modern age of RERCEIVE ORDER, RECEIVE FROMNETWORK, et al, the RELFILEs are contained in the Unix directory. In the old days, when running an ordinary RECEIVE, the RELFILEs were in MVS data sets with a low level qualifier of Fn. RFPREFIX is used to construct the data set names that will be read during RECEIVE processing. DSPREFIX is used to construct the data set names of the SMPTLIB data sets created during RECEIVE processing. I suspect that the confusion comes from the fact that both the RELFILEs and the SMPTLIB data sets have an LLQ on Fn. (Actually there can be more than one "n" in the dsname for more than 9 RELFILEs and SMPTLIB data sets.) The SMPTLIB data sets are deleted during REJECT processing, whether explicitly with a REJECT command or implicitly when performing an ACCEPT with the PURGE global option specified, or a RESTORE with the REJECT global option specified. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
I bow to your superior research skills. Agreed. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 1:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Agreed completely with your last 2 statements. The RELFILES aren't used in the running system, only for installation. Accepting base functions immediately is a good thing. :-) I don't see how SMP/E can use the TLIBs to populate the DLIBs. What would it copy across to the DLIB if, like in the OP's case, he wants to ACCEPT the base code but there have been multiple PTFs installed to the TLIBs, most likely some being PTFs on top of PTFs and maybe an APAR and/or USERMOD installed. Whereas, the SMPMCS and RELFILES would have the original code shipped with the functions and PTFs. I found this snippet in the SMP/E commands manual under ACCEPT which indicates that if the software was shipped in RELFILE format, that's where SMP/E goes to do the accepts. If the module is packaged in a link library (LKLIB) or a relative file (RELFILE),SMP/E copies the module to the distribution library. Any aliases specified for such a module must exist in the LKLIB or relative file in order to be copied. I am pretty sure he won't be able to ACCEPT DB2 11 unless/until he can find the missing RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files That is why I asked Kurt Q. to jump in (in another post, not tracked below). I *think* the DLIBs are built from the TLIBs, but I am not sure. If this is the case, then no problem will occur. If the RELFILES *are* needed for the accept, then the OP has a problem, he can *never* run a ACCEPT for the current software. The rollout process is calling for some RELFILES that no longer exist. For a fair amount of work (I do not believe it is worth the effort) the RELFILES could be recreated from the TLIBS. I can pretty much guarantee that the RELFILES *ARE NOT* used by the running system, so dummy RELFILES can be supplied to satisfy the requirements of the rollout process. Moral of the story. ACCEPT the base functions immediately after successful APPLY. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 11:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Allan, Are you sure the RELFILES aren't needed for the ACCEPT? In my old brain, I'm thinking that ACCEPT copies modules etc from the RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of mainte
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
Agreed completely with your last 2 statements. The RELFILES aren't used in the running system, only for installation. Accepting base functions immediately is a good thing. :-) I don't see how SMP/E can use the TLIBs to populate the DLIBs. What would it copy across to the DLIB if, like in the OP's case, he wants to ACCEPT the base code but there have been multiple PTFs installed to the TLIBs, most likely some being PTFs on top of PTFs and maybe an APAR and/or USERMOD installed. Whereas, the SMPMCS and RELFILES would have the original code shipped with the functions and PTFs. I found this snippet in the SMP/E commands manual under ACCEPT which indicates that if the software was shipped in RELFILE format, that's where SMP/E goes to do the accepts. If the module is packaged in a link library (LKLIB) or a relative file (RELFILE),SMP/E copies the module to the distribution library. Any aliases specified for such a module must exist in the LKLIB or relative file in order to be copied. I am pretty sure he won't be able to ACCEPT DB2 11 unless/until he can find the missing RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files That is why I asked Kurt Q. to jump in (in another post, not tracked below). I *think* the DLIBs are built from the TLIBs, but I am not sure. If this is the case, then no problem will occur. If the RELFILES *are* needed for the accept, then the OP has a problem, he can *never* run a ACCEPT for the current software. The rollout process is calling for some RELFILES that no longer exist. For a fair amount of work (I do not believe it is worth the effort) the RELFILES could be recreated from the TLIBS. I can pretty much guarantee that the RELFILES *ARE NOT* used by the running system, so dummy RELFILES can be supplied to satisfy the requirements of the rollout process. Moral of the story. ACCEPT the base functions immediately after successful APPLY. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 11:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Allan, Are you sure the RELFILES aren't needed for the ACCEPT? In my old brain, I'm thinking that ACCEPT copies modules etc from the RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discu
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
That is why I asked Kurt Q. to jump in (in another post, not tracked below). I *think* the DLIBs are built from the TLIBs, but I am not sure. If this is the case, then no problem will occur. If the RELFILES *are* needed for the accept, then the OP has a problem, he can *never* run a ACCEPT for the current software. The rollout process is calling for some RELFILES that no longer exist. For a fair amount of work (I do not believe it is worth the effort) the RELFILES could be recreated from the TLIBS. I can pretty much guarantee that the RELFILES *ARE NOT* used by the running system, so dummy RELFILES can be supplied to satisfy the requirements of the rollout process. Moral of the story. ACCEPT the base functions immediately after successful APPLY. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 11:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Allan, Are you sure the RELFILES aren't needed for the ACCEPT? In my old brain, I'm thinking that ACCEPT copies modules etc from the RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
Allan, Are you sure the RELFILES aren't needed for the ACCEPT? In my old brain, I'm thinking that ACCEPT copies modules etc from the RELFILES. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
Perhaps that will solve the OP's problem. Run the accept w/NOPURGE and then manually delete the RELFILES. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:49 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other de
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
There is definitely an option to not delete the RELFILES. PURGE/NOPURGE does this - part of the cleanup options. One purpose of this is if you are using a single SMP/E GLOBAL zone with multiple target and multiple distribution zones managed by it. You can use the NOPURGE to ACCEPT SYSMODS into the first DLIB zones then change to PURGE to accept into the last DLIB. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Allan Staller Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
NOPURGE On 2019-07-01 11:34, Allan Staller wrote: > ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an > SMPE configuration option to override this. > > If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect > problems. > The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for > DB2V11 FMIDS. > > HTH, > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Pommier, Rex > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files > > Bill, > > Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment > and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base > APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, > what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up > the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that > is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do > similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for > weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right > before your next APPLY cycle. > > Rex > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Bill Giannelli > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files > > Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to > accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or > right before the first maintenance Apply? > thanks > Bill > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from > disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is > not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering > this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in > reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by > replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in > electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > ::DISCLAIMER:: > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and > intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not > guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, > corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses > in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred > errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or > its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely > those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of > HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, > disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message > without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is > strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete > it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or > attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. > -- > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
ACCEPT will absolutely clean up the relfiles. I do not recall if there is an SMPE configuration option to override this. If DB2 V12 is installed in the same SMPE environment as DB2 V11, I expect problems. The SMPE MCS for DB2V12 FMIDs most likely contains ++DELETE statements for DB2V11 FMIDS. HTH, -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Pommier, Rex Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 10:21 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files
Bill, Presuming your DB2 12 install will be going into its own SMP/E environment and new target/distribution libraries, as soon as you have a successful base APPLY, you should be able to accept them. As a new install of a new release, what reason would you have to try to do a RESTORE? Doing this may clean up the RELFILES as well, depending on how your options are set. Obviously that is not the case of maintenance. For maintenance on the DB2 12, I would do similar as Alan mentioned. APPLY maintenance, then let it sit for weeks/months and then ACCEPT the PTFs - or wait for the ACCEPT until right before your next APPLY cycle. Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bill Giannelli Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 9:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [External] Re: zOSMF software validation looking for *.F files Thinking forward to my v12 Db2 migration, at what point is it advisable to accept the base? As soon as I have my first system successfully migrated? Or right before the first maintenance Apply? thanks Bill -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF - remove plug-in
Lionel, that is exactly our problem too! The security aspect is so over the top, that seems damn near impossible. We too are CA-TSS shop. Also, for clarity, the security that the actual STC needs is straight forward. It's configuring the user security I am talking about. I've advocated with the IBM'ers responsible for development to see if they could provide an easier mechanism. What I want here at our shop is to setup role based profiles something like the following that layer on additional privileges based on need: - minimal access you get with IZUGUEST - options ok to see without being logged on - general authenticated user - app developers, those that might make "cloud" requests - DBA - DB2 staff, - SYSPROG - my team - ZOSMF Administrators - subset of my team Then adding additional users would be a breeze. But we aren’t even to this point yet. Compunding the issue is that ZOSMF required zOS components that we hadn’t previously configured and turned on like PFA, CIM, etc. That’s our own fault, but just adds to the load of configuring. _ Dave Jousma Manager Mainframe Engineering, Assistant Vice President david.jou...@53.com 1830 East Paris, Grand Rapids, MI 49546 MD RSCB2H p 616.653.8429 f 616.653.2717 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA) Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:16 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF - remove plug-in **CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL** **DO NOT open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails** The challenge is implementing the security rules so that this happens. We've been "fighting" for months to get the rules cleaned up as when zOSMF was implemented 2+ years ago the rules were not implemented properly so we are deleting and starting over. I'm not a security person and we use CA Top Secret instead of RACF, but I can say that the rules look both overly cumbersome and completely convoluted. -- Lionel B. Dyck < Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kurt Quackenbush Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF - remove plug-in On 2/1/2018 3:30 PM, Jousma, David wrote: > The way I understand it, the option in the left side bar does not show up, if > you are not allowed to use it. However, I have not proven that out. That is correct, if a user is not authorized to a particular z/OSMF task, then that task is not displayed in the navigation pane for that user. Kurt Quackenbush -- IBM, SMP/E Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN **CAUTION EXTERNAL EMAIL** **DO NOT open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails** This e-mail transmission contains information that is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. If you receive this e-mail in error, please do not read, copy or disseminate it in any manner. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please erase it from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF - remove plug-in
The challenge is implementing the security rules so that this happens. We've been "fighting" for months to get the rules cleaned up as when zOSMF was implemented 2+ years ago the rules were not implemented properly so we are deleting and starting over. I'm not a security person and we use CA Top Secret instead of RACF, but I can say that the rules look both overly cumbersome and completely convoluted. -- Lionel B. Dyck < Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Kurt Quackenbush Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF - remove plug-in On 2/1/2018 3:30 PM, Jousma, David wrote: > The way I understand it, the option in the left side bar does not show up, if > you are not allowed to use it. However, I have not proven that out. That is correct, if a user is not authorized to a particular z/OSMF task, then that task is not displayed in the navigation pane for that user. Kurt Quackenbush -- IBM, SMP/E Development -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
Marna - thank you - if we had RMF enabled I'd be using it :-) -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Marna WALLE Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2016 8:17 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? I think this matter has been settled already, but just to add. You must have enabled RMF (in IFAPRDxx) to use Resource Monitoring in z/OSMF. This is from the z/OSMF Config book for Resource Monitoring: "Enable the optional priced feature, Resource Measurement Facility (RMF), on one of the systems in your enterprise." Just as something to think about in general: the z/OSMF plugins for optional priced features do look at if you've got it enabled (in IFAPRDxx), so that you can't go 'around' enablement verification. -Marna WALLE z/OS System Installation and Migration IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
I think this matter has been settled already, but just to add. You must have enabled RMF (in IFAPRDxx) to use Resource Monitoring in z/OSMF. This is from the z/OSMF Config book for Resource Monitoring: "Enable the optional priced feature, Resource Measurement Facility (RMF), on one of the systems in your enterprise." Just as something to think about in general: the z/OSMF plugins for optional priced features do look at if you've got it enabled (in IFAPRDxx), so that you can't go 'around' enablement verification. -Marna WALLE z/OS System Installation and Migration IBM Poughkeepsie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
Your welcome, I was sure they had a viable solution Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2016 6:07:27 AM Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? Thanks everyone - the BMC support told me CMF can't but that I can add a link to the MainView Explorer to zOSMF to provide similar functionality. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 2:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? I suspect CMF may have a GPMSERVE like connector, Sorry I could not be more help - BMC's technical support is generally pretty good, that would be my next route. they may still require the same security setup as the CFZCIM and GPMSERVE does if they do. Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 10:09:58 AM Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? The resource plugin is enabled but it needs a connector to rmf - something cmf does not have. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? Have your installed the RMF plugin ? I have z/OSMF installed with only the configuration assistant and the WLM plugin, I've not tried to install the RMF plugin I don't see anything specific in the descriptor file for the RMF plugin that is specific to RMF only. see izu.rmf.descriptor in usr/lpp/zosmf/V2R1/configuration/descriptors/ if you're at z/OS 2.1 HTH's Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 10:31:05 AM Subject: zOSMF and CMF? Does anyone know if CMF can interface with the zOSMF Performance modules in place of RMF? I've not found anything in the CMF pubs (so far) -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
Thanks everyone - the BMC support told me CMF can't but that I can add a link to the MainView Explorer to zOSMF to provide similar functionality. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 2:25 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? I suspect CMF may have a GPMSERVE like connector, Sorry I could not be more help - BMC's technical support is generally pretty good, that would be my next route. they may still require the same security setup as the CFZCIM and GPMSERVE does if they do. Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 10:09:58 AM Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? The resource plugin is enabled but it needs a connector to rmf - something cmf does not have. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? Have your installed the RMF plugin ? I have z/OSMF installed with only the configuration assistant and the WLM plugin, I've not tried to install the RMF plugin I don't see anything specific in the descriptor file for the RMF plugin that is specific to RMF only. see izu.rmf.descriptor in usr/lpp/zosmf/V2R1/configuration/descriptors/ if you're at z/OS 2.1 HTH's Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 10:31:05 AM Subject: zOSMF and CMF? Does anyone know if CMF can interface with the zOSMF Performance modules in place of RMF? I've not found anything in the CMF pubs (so far) -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
I suspect CMF may have a GPMSERVE like connector, Sorry I could not be more help - BMC's technical support is generally pretty good, that would be my next route. they may still require the same security setup as the CFZCIM and GPMSERVE does if they do. Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 10:09:58 AM Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? The resource plugin is enabled but it needs a connector to rmf - something cmf does not have. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? Have your installed the RMF plugin ? I have z/OSMF installed with only the configuration assistant and the WLM plugin, I've not tried to install the RMF plugin I don't see anything specific in the descriptor file for the RMF plugin that is specific to RMF only. see izu.rmf.descriptor in usr/lpp/zosmf/V2R1/configuration/descriptors/ if you're at z/OS 2.1 HTH's Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 10:31:05 AM Subject: zOSMF and CMF? Does anyone know if CMF can interface with the zOSMF Performance modules in place of RMF? I've not found anything in the CMF pubs (so far) -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF?
The resource plugin is enabled but it needs a connector to rmf - something cmf does not have. -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 10:02 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF and CMF? Have your installed the RMF plugin ? I have z/OSMF installed with only the configuration assistant and the WLM plugin, I've not tried to install the RMF plugin I don't see anything specific in the descriptor file for the RMF plugin that is specific to RMF only. see izu.rmf.descriptor in usr/lpp/zosmf/V2R1/configuration/descriptors/ if you're at z/OS 2.1 HTH's Carmen - Original Message - From: "Lionel B. Dyck (TRA)" To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2016 10:31:05 AM Subject: zOSMF and CMF? Does anyone know if CMF can interface with the zOSMF Performance modules in place of RMF? I've not found anything in the CMF pubs (so far) -- Lionel B. Dyck Mainframe Systems Programmer - TRA Enterprise Operations (Station 200) (005OP6.3.10) Information and Technology, IT Operations and Services -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
