Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Edward Gould]

Ed:

I thought I had read that NIU was dropping out of the MF ed. I could be wrong.

Ed

> On Jun 14, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Edward Finnell 
> <000248cce9f3-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dr Robert Rainy and the virtual paddles matriculated from UT Knoxville to  
> NIU several years back. Assembler is still offered,
> 
> http://faculty.cs.niu.edu/~hutchins/csci360/main.htm 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 6/14/2016 6:50:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> t...@tombrennansoftware.com writes:
> 
> And  you're right about it taking experience and time.  I was lucky 
> enough  to have a UCLA advanced assembler instructor sitting next to me 
> at work  for many years, so I could just yell over the cubicle wall if I 
> needed  help, which was much of the time  :)
> 
> 
> 
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

johnmattson...@gmail.com (John Mattson) writes:
> IBM made mistakes back in the 1980's and 1990's from which they may never
> really recover.
> 1) Doing away with the THINK motto.  It seems about the time they did this
> is when many of them stopped thinking.
> 2) Stopped giving the systems almost free to colleges which stopped the
> flow of trained personnel.  MS and Apple learned from this mistake.
> 3) They almost eliminated VM for heavens sake, and now others have
> re-invented it and taken the market.  Someone clearly was NOT THINKing.
> 4) They invented the PC and did not see the potential in it.  It's like
> Edison inventing the light bulb, saying "That's nice" and walking away.
> Inexcusable.

IBM cut the 50s/60s 40% (or greater) education discount with the
23Jun1969 unbundling announcement in the wake of various legal
actions. past unbundling posts
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#unbundle

in the early 80s, IBM tried to recover, creating ACIS (academic
computing) ... started out with $300M to give away to univ. MIT Project
Athena got $25M (Project Athena equally funded by $25M from DEC),
X-windows, kerberos, etc. CMU got $50M ... went into MACH, Camelot, some
number of others (lots of places would use MACH, including newer Apple
operating system).

ACIS also sponsors EARN & BITNET (where this mailing list originated)
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet

... using similar technology used by the internal network (larger than
arpanet/internet from just about the beginning until sometime mid-80s)
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

originally developed by the IBM Cambridge Science Center ... also
responsible for virtual machines, inventing GML in 1969 (morphs
into SGML a decade later, after another decade morphs into HTML),
and some number of other things ... past posts
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
and
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml

I've frequently pontificated that early uptake of IBM/PC was 3270
terminal emulation ... IBM/PC with 3270 terminal emulation was about the
same price as 3270 terminal ... a large corporation with tens of thousands
of 3270s already justified could switch order to IBM/PC with little or
no additional business justification effort ... and get single desk
footprint that did mainframe terminal and some local computing.
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#terminal

my brother was Apple regional marketing rep (largest physical region in
CONUS) and would periodic come to town and I would get invited to some
business dinners. I got to argue with MAC developers (before MAC was
even announced) that it needed terminal emulation (they responded that
it was for the kitchen table and would never be contaminated by business
uses). Silicon valley was different place back them ... at Hacker's
Conference, people could bring unnounced products and be played with by
others that worked for competitors.

However, communication group didn't track as personal computers become
more powerful.  I've periodically mentioned that senior disk engineer
got a talk scheduled at the annual, internal, world-wide, communication
group conference supposedly on 3174 performance ... but opened the talk
with the statement that the communication group was going to be
responsible for the demise of the disk division. The issue was that the
communication group had stranglehold on datacenters with corporate
strategic responsibility for everything that crossed datacenter walls
... and were strongly fighting off distributed computing and
client/server, trying to preserve their dumb terminal (emulation)
paradigm and install base. The disk division was seeing the effects of
data fleeing the datacenter (to more distributed computing friendly
platforms) with drop in disk sales. The disk division had come up with a
number of solutions to address the problem, but they were constantly
vetoed by the communication group.

A few short years later the company goes into the red and was being
re-organized into the 13 "baby blues" in preparation for breaking up the
company. The board then brings in a new CEO to resurrect the company and
reverse the breakup.

Starting in the early 80s, I had a project called HSDT ... some past
posts
http://manana.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#hsdt

with T1 and faster speed links and we were working with director of NSF
to connect the NSF supercomputer centers. We were suppose to get $20M,
but then congress cuts the budget, some number of other things happen,
and then NSF releases a RFP (largely based on what we already had
running) but internal politics prevent us from bidding. The NSF director
tries to help by writting the company a letter (with support from other
agencies), copying the CEO, but that just makes the internal politics
worse (as well as the comments that what we already had running was at
least 5yrs ahead of all RFP responses). As regional networks connect
into the centers it 

IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[John Mattson]

IBM made mistakes back in the 1980's and 1990's from which they may never
really recover.
1) Doing away with the THINK motto.  It seems about the time they did this
is when many of them stopped thinking.
2) Stopped giving the systems almost free to colleges which stopped the
flow of trained personnel.  MS and Apple learned from this mistake.
3) They almost eliminated VM for heavens sake, and now others have
re-invented it and taken the market.  Someone clearly was NOT THINKing.
4) They invented the PC and did not see the potential in it.  It's like
Edison inventing the light bulb, saying "That's nice" and walking away.
Inexcusable.
Had they NOT done these things, cost would not be such a problem.  As
it is, lowering cost is about their only choice. Not a good place to be.

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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Edward Finnell]

Dr Robert Rainy and the virtual paddles matriculated from UT Knoxville to  
NIU several years back. Assembler is still offered,
 
http://faculty.cs.niu.edu/~hutchins/csci360/main.htm 
 
 
In a message dated 6/14/2016 6:50:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
t...@tombrennansoftware.com writes:

And  you're right about it taking experience and time.  I was lucky 
enough  to have a UCLA advanced assembler instructor sitting next to me 
at work  for many years, so I could just yell over the cubicle wall if I 
needed  help, which was much of the time  :)



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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Tom Brennan]

Thanks!  I was going to mention Marist but I totally forgot about SHARE. 
And you're right about it taking experience and time.  I was lucky 
enough to have a UCLA advanced assembler instructor sitting next to me 
at work for many years, so I could just yell over the cubicle wall if I 
needed help, which was much of the time :)


Tom

Linda wrote:

Oops! Tiny keyboard, fat fingers. continued below

Sent from my iPhone



On Jun 14, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Linda  wrote:

Hi Tom,

I believe that Marist College still offers mainframe assembler on a fairly regular basis. There is also an Assembler Boot Camp often offered at SHARE. I have completed both of these, and found them to be very useful. Not enough to step right into Assembler development work, but enough to help me support and update in house routines and exits as well as customize vendor exits. 



Linda


Sent from my iPhone



On Jun 14, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Tom Brennan  wrote:

Itschak Mugzach wrote:


funny? not sure. I'll vote for sad.


I meant "Fun" which is a little different.  I just liked the interesting way 
the author put things together.  The content is sad of course.



So, my advise is not to find new uses to the mainframe, just make it
affordable for clients.


Uh oh... don't forget "Grow or Die".



If the number of shops will grow (traditional
mainframe use), the number of universities will use and teach Mainframe.
BTW, a college in In north of Israel offered students a free course of
mainframe.


Glad to see the class was offered and accepted over there.  There are some 
colleges here in the USA that offer basic mainframe courses, but I think a 
college assembler course would be hard to find.

Tom

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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Linda]

Oops! Tiny keyboard, fat fingers. continued below

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 14, 2016, at 4:17 PM, Linda  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> I believe that Marist College still offers mainframe assembler on a fairly 
> regular basis. There is also an Assembler Boot Camp often offered at SHARE. I 
> have completed both of these, and found them to be very useful. Not enough to 
> step right into Assembler development work, but enough to help me support and 
> update in house routines and exits as well as customize vendor exits. 

Linda
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jun 14, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Tom Brennan  wrote:
>> 
>> Itschak Mugzach wrote:
>>> funny? not sure. I'll vote for sad.
>> 
>> I meant "Fun" which is a little different.  I just liked the interesting way 
>> the author put things together.  The content is sad of course.
>> 
>>> So, my advise is not to find new uses to the mainframe, just make it
>>> affordable for clients.
>> 
>> Uh oh... don't forget "Grow or Die".
>> 
>>> If the number of shops will grow (traditional
>>> mainframe use), the number of universities will use and teach Mainframe.
>>> BTW, a college in In north of Israel offered students a free course of
>>> mainframe.
>> 
>> Glad to see the class was offered and accepted over there.  There are some 
>> colleges here in the USA that offer basic mainframe courses, but I think a 
>> college assembler course would be hard to find.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Linda]

Hi Tom,

I believe that Marist College offers mainframe assembler on a fairly regular 
basis. There is also an Assembler Boot Camp often offered at SHARE. I have 
completed both of these, and found them to be very useful. Not enough to step 
right into Assembler development work, 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 14, 2016, at 4:09 PM, Tom Brennan  wrote:
> 
> Itschak Mugzach wrote:
>> funny? not sure. I'll vote for sad.
> 
> I meant "Fun" which is a little different.  I just liked the interesting way 
> the author put things together.  The content is sad of course.
> 
>> So, my advise is not to find new uses to the mainframe, just make it
>> affordable for clients.
> 
> Uh oh... don't forget "Grow or Die".
> 
>> If the number of shops will grow (traditional
>> mainframe use), the number of universities will use and teach Mainframe.
>> BTW, a college in In north of Israel offered students a free course of
>> mainframe.
> 
> Glad to see the class was offered and accepted over there.  There are some 
> colleges here in the USA that offer basic mainframe courses, but I think a 
> college assembler course would be hard to find.
> 
> Tom
> 
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Tom Brennan]

Itschak Mugzach wrote:
funny? not sure. I'll vote for sad. 


I meant "Fun" which is a little different.  I just liked the interesting 
way the author put things together.  The content is sad of course.



So, my advise is not to find new uses to the mainframe, just make it
affordable for clients. 


Uh oh... don't forget "Grow or Die".


If the number of shops will grow (traditional
mainframe use), the number of universities will use and teach Mainframe.
BTW, a college in In north of Israel offered students a free course of
mainframe. 


Glad to see the class was offered and accepted over there.  There are 
some colleges here in the USA that offer basic mainframe courses, but I 
think a college assembler course would be hard to find.


Tom

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Another article. was: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Dana Mitchell]

Another interesting article relating to the changes in IBM over the years:

http://www.businessinsider.com/ibm-corporate-america-history-2016-6

Dana

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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Itschak Mugzach]

funny? not sure. I'll vote for sad. Although a mainframe is claimed to be a
general purpose machine, it doesn't fit all. but, at least, many that are
using other platforms and languages. The problem I hear from clients is
pricing. they don't really care for developers, Cobol is popular on other
platforms as well, and it is popular because it fits into clients needs. It
take few weeks to teach Cobol (done that, taught that). What clients
THINK!s (I don't think IBM is still using this slogan any more, do they?)
is that the TCO of the mainframe is not affordable, and I am talking about
the largest mainframe shops we have (and had) here.

So, my advise is not to find new uses to the mainframe, just make it
affordable for clients. If the number of shops will grow (traditional
mainframe use), the number of universities will use and teach Mainframe.
BTW, a college in In north of Israel offered students a free course of
mainframe. Many of them took the full program and now are assembler
programmers...

The way the market is constructed only few giant clients dictate the the
change in the industry. Most clients don't care for new hardware features
that brings new models in and obsolete 5 years boxes. I still remember the
crazy days that IBM released two zOS versions a year. all these upgrades
cost money to clients, no surprise they think TCO is much to hugh. so the
botom line is don;t look for nbew uses, find new accounts and save the
mainframe.

My two cents,

ITschak


ITschak Mugzach
Z/OS, ISV Products and Application Security & Risk Assessments Professional

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Tom Brennan <t...@tombrennansoftware.com>
wrote:

> Fun to read!  But whenever I see things like this a couple of items come
> to mind:
>
> 1) z/OS often gets lumped in with z/Linux as if a move to z/Linux will
> save the mainframe.  Sure, that will save the *hardware*, but it won't save
> the jobs of all the z/OS software folks.
>
> 2) IBM needs to make z/OS (etc) available for free for students and
> developers so they can run it on Hercules.  I'm not sure IBM realizes that
> is basically their last chance to ever get z/OS growing again.
>
>
> Mark Regan wrote:
>
>>
>> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469
>>
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Tom Brennan]

Fun to read!  But whenever I see things like this a couple of items come 
to mind:


1) z/OS often gets lumped in with z/Linux as if a move to z/Linux will 
save the mainframe.  Sure, that will save the *hardware*, but it won't 
save the jobs of all the z/OS software folks.


2) IBM needs to make z/OS (etc) available for free for students and 
developers so they can run it on Hercules.  I'm not sure IBM realizes 
that is basically their last chance to ever get z/OS growing again.


Mark Regan wrote:

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469

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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Aled Hughes]

"There seems to be confusion in the Colonies.";-)
 
I have known Trevor a long time, and I believe his tongueis firmly in his cheek 
in this situation. In other words, this (to me) is aclassic bit of British 
humor which has to be read in that context. To me, itcertainly reflects what I 
suspect is happening at IBM these days However, notto detract from some of the 
great folks in management at IBM, there does seemto be demand to make 'profit' 
the King. And as Jack says, there seems to be amultitude of MBAs about (Means 
Bugger All in my book!)
 
ALH
 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Pete Lancashire <p...@petelancashire.com>
To: IBM-MAIN <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
Sent: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:03
Subject: Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

pSeries/AIX admin here ...

just as dense here as well.

-pete shaking head and mumbling

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 8:27 AM, John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:15 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
> > That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.
> >
>
> ​You're not the only one.​
>
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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>
>
> --
> "Pessimism is a admirable quality in an engineer. Pessimistic people check
> their work three times, because they're sure that something won't be right.
> Optimistic people check once, trust in Solis-de to keep the ship safe, then
> blow everyone up."
> "I think you're mistaking the word optimistic for inept."
> "They've got a similar ring to my ear."
>
> From "Star Nomad" by Lindsay Buroker:
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Pete Lancashire]

pSeries/AIX admin here ...

just as dense here as well.

-pete shaking head and mumbling

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 8:27 AM, John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:15 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
> > That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.
> >
>
> ​You're not the only one.​
>
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469
> > >
> > > --
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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>
>
>
> --
> "Pessimism is a admirable quality in an engineer. Pessimistic people check
> their work three times, because they're sure that something won't be right.
> Optimistic people check once, trust in Solis-de to keep the ship safe, then
> blow everyone up."
> "I think you're mistaking the word optimistic for inept."
> "They've got a similar ring to my ear."
>
> From "Star Nomad" by Lindsay Buroker:
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Farley, Peter x23353]

I didn't get that from what I read.  Each of the "directions" the author 
describes that IBM has traveled lately seem reasonable and forward-looking 
(though perhaps somewhat late to the party, as you said - but the party 
continues).

I read it as just an interesting speculation of the decision process, but maybe 
I'm the thick-headed one.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mullen, Patrick
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 11:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

Way I read it he's saying IBM has no overall strategy, just reacting to the fad 
of the day, usually arriving at the party just as it's starting to wind down 
and all the cool kids have moved on to the next one.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 10:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:15 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
> That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.
>

​You're not the only one.​

>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-a
> n-imaginary-tale-73469
> >
>
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Staller, Allan]

A waste of electrons. The author merely repeated what has already happened.

Subject: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469


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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Mullen, Patrick]

Way I read it he's saying IBM has no overall strategy, just reacting to the fad 
of the day, usually arriving at the party just as it's starting to wind down 
and all the cool kids have moved on to the next one.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 10:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:15 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
> That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.
>

​You're not the only one.​



>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-a
> n-imaginary-tale-73469
> >
> > 
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> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
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"Pessimism is a admirable quality in an engineer. Pessimistic people check 
their work three times, because they're sure that something won't be right.
Optimistic people check once, trust in Solis-de to keep the ship safe, then 
blow everyone up."
"I think you're mistaking the word optimistic for inept."
"They've got a similar ring to my ear."

From "Star Nomad" by Lindsay Buroker:

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[John McKown]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:15 AM, zMan <zedgarhoo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
> That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.
>

​You're not the only one.​



>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469
> >
> > --
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> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"
>
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-- 
"Pessimism is a admirable quality in an engineer. Pessimistic people check
their work three times, because they're sure that something won't be right.
Optimistic people check once, trust in Solis-de to keep the ship safe, then
blow everyone up."
"I think you're mistaking the word optimistic for inept."
"They've got a similar ring to my ear."

>From "Star Nomad" by Lindsay Buroker:

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

--
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Re: IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[zMan]

WTF. Can't decide what he's trying to say: that IBM has a solid strategy?
That they're fooling themselves? I must be dense.

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 5:52 AM, Mark Regan <marktre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>



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zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

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IBM plans for the future - an imaginary tale

[Mark Regan]

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/mainframe-world/ibm-plans-for-the-future-an-imaginary-tale-73469

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