Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
Gord Tomlin wrote:
>AFAICT the sole reason for the (paid) hardware feature is to provide
>entitlement.
>My guess as to why they require this feature is that you can run a lot
>of FOSS products in zCX that offer similar function to IBM products.
>Unfettered free use of zCX could be very costly to IBM.
That's a bad guess.(*) To the extent you can do that, you can already
(also) do that without zCX. Moreover, z/OS isn't Feature Code 0104's only
beneficiary. For that matter, Feature Code 0104 ("Container Hosting
Foundation") is also available for IBM LinuxONE II and LinuxONE III
machines, and z/OS isn't.
(*) And backwards, ironically.
- - - - - - - - - -
Timothy Sipples
I.T. Architect Executive
Digital Asset & Other Industry Solutions
IBM Z & LinuxONE
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E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com
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Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
Thank you all for the answers ... They make a lot of sense ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
No, this FC is kind of license. There is no hardware behind and definitely no change in integrated circuits like CPU. And it would be wise to enable such "deep DAT" for z/VM world as well. But there is no such feature. BTW: there are several FC features which are enablements of some software/microcode. Examples: STP, 3215 ICC console, etc. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 26.08.2020 o 20:37, Mauri Kanter pisze: I guess the same than you and for the same reasons, but I have no proof of it ... The only thing why I doubt about it is that I do not know why zCX needs FC-0104 ? Does FC-0104 changes something hardware-wise? My guess is NO. Reason: the same as with z/VM. Multi-level z/VM causes DAT to be not used on last level guest. There is no reason to assume zLinux container would break this limitation. My €0.02. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN . == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
On 2020-08-26 14:37, Mauri Kanter wrote: I do not know why zCX needs FC-0104 ? Does FC-0104 changes something hardware-wise? AFAICT the sole reason for the (paid) hardware feature is to provide entitlement. My guess as to why they require this feature is that you can run a lot of FOSS products in zCX that offer similar function to IBM products. Unfettered free use of zCX could be very costly to IBM. -- Regards, Gord Tomlin Action Software International (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
Well, you can get a 90 day trial without it, so the software must be checking for license and not using an actual hardware feature. https://ibmsystemsmag.com/IBM-Z/07/2020/z-os-container-extensions-trial On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:37 PM Mauri Kanter wrote: > > I guess the same than you and for the same reasons, but I have no proof of it > ... The only thing why I doubt about it is that I do not know why zCX needs > FC-0104 ? Does FC-0104 changes something hardware-wise? > > > > > >My guess is NO. > >Reason: the same as with z/VM. Multi-level z/VM causes DAT to be not > >used on last level guest. There is no reason to assume zLinux container > >would break this limitation. > >My €0.02. > > > >-- > >Radoslaw Skorupka > >Lodz, Poland > > > > > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
I guess the same than you and for the same reasons, but I have no proof of it ... The only thing why I doubt about it is that I do not know why zCX needs FC-0104 ? Does FC-0104 changes something hardware-wise? > >My guess is NO. >Reason: the same as with z/VM. Multi-level z/VM causes DAT to be not >used on last level guest. There is no reason to assume zLinux container >would break this limitation. >My €0.02. > >-- >Radoslaw Skorupka >Lodz, Poland > > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
IMHO the key to running system efficiently is to assure enough physical memory. Enough mean paging rate close to zero during normal operation. Paging is still good, but only clean out inactive pages (looong time). However DAT is in use even with no paging - just to translate virtual storage to real storage. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 26.08.2020 o 18:04, Mike Schwab pisze: The key to running MVS efficiently under VM was to specify a small region for MVS within VM. This would result with all the VM pages for MVS being in and MVS would page in and out. A large region for MVS would result in MVS and VM both paging in and out, working against each other. So look at Linux memory utilization and trim the memory to just above the actual utilization. I'm guessing 10% over utilization but experiment with the amount and monitor paging I/O. If no paging I/O trim a little, then once you start to get paging go up a little bit until it stops. On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:54 AM Mauri Kanter wrote: Hi: BTW, speaking of running zCX under z/OS under z/VM ... Does anyone know whether (or not) the DAT translation is kept in the TLBs (CAM memory)? I don't know why, but I think there was a limit on the levels of hardware-assisted DAT translation ... I want to know whether running zCX on a z/OS under z/VM is efficient hardware-wise ... Mauri -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
W dniu 26.08.2020 o 18:15, Mauri Kanter pisze: Hi Mike: Thanks for the answer My question tried to clarify whether (or not) when a zCX Linux image uses DAT and z/OS is running under z/VM, if it can be a TLB-hit or it always be a TLB-miss because the so many levels of SIE-virtualization My guess is NO. Reason: the same as with z/VM. Multi-level z/VM causes DAT to be not used on last level guest. There is no reason to assume zLinux container would break this limitation. My €0.02. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
Hi Mike: Thanks for the answer My question tried to clarify whether (or not) when a zCX Linux image uses DAT and z/OS is running under z/VM, if it can be a TLB-hit or it always be a TLB-miss because the so many levels of SIE-virtualization Mauri. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
The key to running MVS efficiently under VM was to specify a small region for MVS within VM. This would result with all the VM pages for MVS being in and MVS would page in and out. A large region for MVS would result in MVS and VM both paging in and out, working against each other. So look at Linux memory utilization and trim the memory to just above the actual utilization. I'm guessing 10% over utilization but experiment with the amount and monitor paging I/O. If no paging I/O trim a little, then once you start to get paging go up a little bit until it stops. On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:54 AM Mauri Kanter wrote: > > Hi: > > BTW, speaking of running zCX under z/OS under z/VM ... > > Does anyone know whether (or not) the DAT translation is kept in the TLBs > (CAM memory)? > > I don't know why, but I think there was a limit on the levels of > hardware-assisted DAT translation ... > > I want to know whether running zCX on a z/OS under z/VM is efficient > hardware-wise ... > > Mauri > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
Hi: BTW, speaking of running zCX under z/OS under z/VM ... Does anyone know whether (or not) the DAT translation is kept in the TLBs (CAM memory)? I don't know why, but I think there was a limit on the levels of hardware-assisted DAT translation ... I want to know whether running zCX on a z/OS under z/VM is efficient hardware-wise ... Mauri -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
I hear what you say, Brian - perhaps I should be a little less trusting. Nevertheless, the book goes on to cover installation of 'Cadvisor' and 'Prometheus', too, both of which are required for grafana to do its job. (and I'm having similar difficulty with Cadvisor, too.) Regards Sean On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 12:15, David Crayford wrote: > I doubt it would be in production if it wasn't ready :) > > On 2020-08-14 4:32 PM, Brian Westerman wrote: > > I hate to say this but I can't help myself, but what makes you think > they actually got it to work? :) > > > > But seriously, the redbooks are written sometimes before the final > processes are set in place, so sometimes they tell you what "should be" > instead of what "is be". > > > > From what you are saying, your way should certainly work, but it's hard > to debug without the entire process to look at and implement myself. > > > > Brian > > > > -- > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
I doubt it would be in production if it wasn't ready :) On 2020-08-14 4:32 PM, Brian Westerman wrote: I hate to say this but I can't help myself, but what makes you think they actually got it to work? :) But seriously, the redbooks are written sometimes before the final processes are set in place, so sometimes they tell you what "should be" instead of what "is be". From what you are saying, your way should certainly work, but it's hard to debug without the entire process to look at and implement myself. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: (yet another) problem with zcx container
I hate to say this but I can't help myself, but what makes you think they actually got it to work? :) But seriously, the redbooks are written sometimes before the final processes are set in place, so sometimes they tell you what "should be" instead of what "is be". From what you are saying, your way should certainly work, but it's hard to debug without the entire process to look at and implement myself. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
