Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Warren Brown]

gee, I,ve worked at both places. When IRS 6 years ago running C++ and COBOL on 
the mainframe. 

  From: Clark Morris <cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca>
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
 Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 9:05 PM
 Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
   
[Default] On 18 Apr 2018 02:53:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
0102cb4997b0-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu (Larre Shiller) wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:19:07 -0700, Ed Jaffe <edja...@phoenixsoftware.com> 
>wrote:
>
>>On 4/17/2018 3:55 PM, Edward Gould wrote:
>>>
>>> I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
>>> *WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
>>> not), please?
>>
>>SSA runs one of the most sophisticated data centers of any government
>>agency I've seen.
>>
>>They own all the latest kit and participate in nearly every z/OS ESP. I
>>know this for FACT!
>>
>Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
>on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".
>
>And speaking of IT modernization efforts, I thought that this was rather 
>timely and informative:
>
>https://federalnewsradio.com/it-modernization-month-2018/2018/04/social-security-on-schedule-to-modernize-it-systems-by/
>
>...it's a 20 minute listen, but it gives you a good idea as to where we are 
>and where we are headed in the future.
>
>I guess you could get into a discussion about what we are running that is "out 
>of date", but certainly our IT infrastructure is *not*.  Are 40 year old COBOL 
>programs "out of date"...?  Well... they may have some "technical debt" 
>associated with them and sometimes maintaining them can be challenging, but 
>does it really matter if I'm running a COBOL or a JAVA program to add up a 
>column of numbers?

If you are interested in efficiency and the COBOL program has decent
record definitions, I would guess that it will do far better than
JAVA.  Has anyone coded programs in COBOL and JAVA to do the same
thing and compare them for CPU and IO consumption?  Also have they
verified the results are the same?

Clark Morris
>
>Larre Shiller
>US Social Security Administration
> 
>“The opinions expressed in this e-mail are mine personally and do not 
>necessarily reflect the opinion of the US Social Security Administration 
>and/or the US Government.”
>
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 18 Apr 2018 02:53:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
0102cb4997b0-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu (Larre Shiller) wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:19:07 -0700, Ed Jaffe  
>wrote:
>
>>On 4/17/2018 3:55 PM, Edward Gould wrote:
>>>
>>> I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
>>> *WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
>>> not), please?
>>
>>SSA runs one of the most sophisticated data centers of any government
>>agency I've seen.
>>
>>They own all the latest kit and participate in nearly every z/OS ESP. I
>>know this for FACT!
>>
>Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
>on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".
>
>And speaking of IT modernization efforts, I thought that this was rather 
>timely and informative:
>
>https://federalnewsradio.com/it-modernization-month-2018/2018/04/social-security-on-schedule-to-modernize-it-systems-by/
>
>...it's a 20 minute listen, but it gives you a good idea as to where we are 
>and where we are headed in the future.
>
>I guess you could get into a discussion about what we are running that is "out 
>of date", but certainly our IT infrastructure is *not*.  Are 40 year old COBOL 
>programs "out of date"...?  Well... they may have some "technical debt" 
>associated with them and sometimes maintaining them can be challenging, but 
>does it really matter if I'm running a COBOL or a JAVA program to add up a 
>column of numbers?

If you are interested in efficiency and the COBOL program has decent
record definitions, I would guess that it will do far better than
JAVA.  Has anyone coded programs in COBOL and JAVA to do the same
thing and compare them for CPU and IO consumption?  Also have they
verified the results are the same?

Clark Morris
>
>Larre Shiller
>US Social Security Administration
> 
>“The opinions expressed in this e-mail are mine personally and do not 
>necessarily reflect the opinion of the US Social Security Administration 
>and/or the US Government.”
>
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Mike Hochee]

Google and Twitter workloads quite likely do not have the same integrity 
expectations/requirements as workloads running on z systems.  This may be part 
of the explanation.  In addition, my observations are limited to IBM Z systems 
which are 'mainframe' systems, and the subject of this discussion list.  The 
benchmark cited appeared to be running on a high-end Dell system. 

Another possibility might be the true object-oriented nature of the language 
that may not mesh well with a non-OO workload.  For example, I have seen 
several implementations which had to incorporate an OO-relational layer to 
bridge the differences between OO processing and relationally conforming data. 
There was substantial overhead associated with the care maintenance of that 
data layer.   

Based on my experience and personal observations, I would not recommend 
replacing a high volume performance critical system written in an extremely low 
overhead 2nd generation language with system largely written in JAVA, certainly 
not without doing a serious pilot project first.  I would feel far more 
comfortable recommending C/C++ as a replacement.  

This is appears to be an older IBM document 
(https://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=swg27013550=7  I could not 
find a date), but it contains the following statement...   " Will a TPF Java 
program be as efficient as an assembler program or even C? Of course not, but 
consider..." 

Hope the above helps explain my perspective. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of David Crayford
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

On 20/04/2018 4:54 AM, Mike Hochee wrote:
> I have yet to see JAVA successfully handle the data and transaction volumes 
> processed by the largest credit card processors, banks,  insurance companies, 
> or the stock market.


Some of the biggest companies in the world use the JVM in their stack. 
Google, Amazon, eBay, Uber not to mention Twitter, all at enormous scale. There 
are several high frequency trading applications written in Java some claiming 
to do 6M tps on a single thread [1].

[1] https://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html

> I witnessed an attempt at processing appx. 15% of IRS volume using JAVA as a 
> core technology.  I don't know the final outcome, but when I left they were 
> about 400% beyond proposed SLA performance targets.  C/C++ seems like a good 
> (maybe only) bet if they want to keep the workload on zTPF.

That's interesting! Is there a fundamental flaw in the JVM implementation on 
zTPF or was it down to poor design?

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] 
> On Behalf Of Eric Chevalier
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 4:07 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>
> On 4/18/18 1:50 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:
>
>> IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you 
>> use JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow
> TPF has had C/C++ since 1997.
>
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[David Crayford]

On 20/04/2018 4:54 AM, Mike Hochee wrote:

I have yet to see JAVA successfully handle the data and transaction volumes 
processed by the largest credit card processors, banks,  insurance companies, 
or the stock market.



Some of the biggest companies in the world use the JVM in their stack. 
Google, Amazon, eBay, Uber not to mention Twitter, all at enormous 
scale. There are several high frequency trading applications written in 
Java some claiming

to do 6M tps on a single thread [1].

[1] https://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html


I witnessed an attempt at processing appx. 15% of IRS volume using JAVA as a 
core technology.  I don't know the final outcome, but when I left they were 
about 400% beyond proposed SLA performance targets.  C/C++ seems like a good 
(maybe only) bet if they want to keep the workload on zTPF.


That's interesting! Is there a fundamental flaw in the JVM 
implementation on zTPF or was it down to poor design?



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Eric Chevalier
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 4:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

On 4/18/18 1:50 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:


IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you
use JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow

TPF has had C/C++ since 1997.

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Pete Lancashire]

I smell an open pit sewer goes by the name Oracle

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 1:54 PM Mike Hochee <mike.hoc...@aspg.com> wrote:

> I have yet to see JAVA successfully handle the data and transaction
> volumes processed by the largest credit card processors, banks,  insurance
> companies, or the stock market.  I witnessed an attempt at processing appx.
> 15% of IRS volume using JAVA as a core technology.  I don't know the final
> outcome, but when I left they were about 400% beyond proposed SLA
> performance targets.  C/C++ seems like a good (maybe only) bet if they want
> to keep the workload on zTPF.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Eric Chevalier
> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 4:07 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>
> On 4/18/18 1:50 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:
>
> > IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you
> > use JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow
>
> TPF has had C/C++ since 1997.
>
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Mike Hochee]

I have yet to see JAVA successfully handle the data and transaction volumes 
processed by the largest credit card processors, banks,  insurance companies, 
or the stock market.  I witnessed an attempt at processing appx. 15% of IRS 
volume using JAVA as a core technology.  I don't know the final outcome, but 
when I left they were about 400% beyond proposed SLA performance targets.  
C/C++ seems like a good (maybe only) bet if they want to keep the workload on 
zTPF. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Eric Chevalier
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 4:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

On 4/18/18 1:50 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:

> IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you 
> use JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow

TPF has had C/C++ since 1997.

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Eric Chevalier]

On 4/18/18 1:50 PM, Steve Beaver wrote:


IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you use
JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow


TPF has had C/C++ since 1997.

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

sipp...@sg.ibm.com (Timothy Sipples) writes:
> Then PARS -> ACP -> ACP/TPF -> TPF -> TPF/ESA -> z/TPF (IBM supported
> today). PARS definitely made it onto System/360, probably from 1965 with
> the first machines. However, there were at least three PARS customers that
> started on IBM 70xx machines: American, Delta, and PanAm. (Were there any
> others?) All three switched over to System/360 and successor machines
> fairly quickly.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018c.html#57 The IRS Really Needs Some New 
Computers

in the ACP/TPF timeframe, non-airlines, other res systems and financial
were starting to use ACP ... prompting the change in name ... from
airline control program to transaction processing facility.

this was also when 308x was introducted which was going to be
multiprocessor only. the problem was that acp/tpf didn't have
multiprocessor support ... and IBM was concerned that all the ACP/TPF
customers would move to clone vendors which were still offering faster,
newer single processor systems. Eventually 3083 was introduced,
basically 3081 with one of the processors removed (one of the problems
was that 2nd 3081 processor was in the middle of the box, just straight
removal would have left the box dangerously top-heavy).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Timothy Sipples]

Steve Beaver wrote:
>IBM ALCS became zTFP.

I don't think so. My understanding, from Wikipedia primarily, is that the
ALCS and z/TPF family tree started with a common root ancestor in the SABRE
project for American Airlines. SABRE entered initial pilot service in 1960
on IBM 7090 machines.

Then PARS -> ACP -> ACP/TPF -> TPF -> TPF/ESA -> z/TPF (IBM supported
today). PARS definitely made it onto System/360, probably from 1965 with
the first machines. However, there were at least three PARS customers that
started on IBM 70xx machines: American, Delta, and PanAm. (Were there any
others?) All three switched over to System/360 and successor machines
fairly quickly.

ALCS started as a variant of ACP (or ACP/TPF or TPF?) that was
(re)platformed onto MVS. Like z/TPF, ALCS continues to evolve, and the
latest release of ALCS is IBM supported on z/OS. Oddly enough, the reverse
was possible for a while: early releases of MVS (and perhaps all releases
of SVS) could run atop ACP. Today's z/TPF, and today's ALCS on z/OS, can
run as z/VM guests.

For a while there was also a variant of PARS called CPARS (Compact
Programmed Airline Reservations System).


Timothy Sipples
IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE,
Multi-Geography
E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Elardus Engelbrecht]

Shane G wrote:

Welcome back Shane! Great to see you're back to tease us with your good 
spirited posts! ;-)


>I can't believe none of the Aussies subscribed have commented. 

I think you're the last Aussie here in IBM-MAIN, unless I missed someone... If 
there are others, please shout! 


>Our Social Security people (whatever they are called this week) have also been 
>getting hammered for years about their stone-age computer environment. OK, 
>M204 is flint, but what the hell; they too run decent kit. It works, and it'd 
>better keep working. Been there, seen it, tremble at the thought of the dills 
>proposing it all be chucked out for SAP on Windoze or some-such ... Let's hope 
>the proponents for Linux continue to have some wins.

About South Africa own tax collector: We have what they call - 'SARS e-Filing'. 
You, businesses and employers do all the taxing work online. Of course, you can 
still mail (snailmail in case you don't know ;-D ) or waste petrol/diesel to 
deliver your papers at a tax office.

As published on their website: '2.7 million individual taxpayers and 350 000 
businesses ' are enjoying this free e-filing system. You get your latest tax 
status within a few hours if you're just earning a simple salary or pension. Or 
it can take some days if your tax papers are somewhat complex. You will get a 
notification in about a week if you have to pay more tax or you will get a 
refund.

... back to our scheduled mainframe discussion...

I certainly know SARS is having a mixture of different computers: mainframes, 
midrange computers of various flavours including Linux and PCs/Laptops with 
different operating systems.

Groete / Greetings
Elardus Engelbrecht

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Seymour J Metz]

> IBM ALCS became zTFP.

That didn't exist in 1958. ITYM zTPF.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
Steve Beaver <st...@stevebeaver.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 2:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you use
JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 1:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

>  code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old

That would be 1958; at best a 7070, possibly something older. There's no
7070 emulator on modern hardware and a lot of IRS code was written for TPF,
which didn't exist in 1958.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of
Joel C. Ewing <jcew...@acm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

I read the referenced article.   The title was obviously written by
someone who isn't sufficiently computer-literate to understand that a
computer is hardware and that application code is NOT a computer.

The text of the article flat out says the IRS has repeatedly updated
hardware over the years.  The reported problem is that it's still
dependent on some code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old
and difficult to maintain.  That's an entirely different problem than
the title implies.
Joel C Ewing

On 04/17/2018 01:14 PM, Gerhard Adam wrote:
> Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller <allan.stal...@hcl.com>
wrote:
>>
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at
least 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
>>
>> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>>
>> Mostly historical:
>>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1HUD7gS18J2SMvyHer13UGZYsxceOizT4D1VOqtoFD_825N
wi4JT_x6TKjOg2a64UARRNmGzasJv406vRVV6L21DtdaB6xLfwiL2_PjCIF4GiI8kpZ90mwEzoAB
ARlgsrrwynvfHfsTsjpjusrvN6FLQJZBVCsQjQJj6ToGgDjL9uc_eVNjbVhQVgALPgEf7wg8Tm6V
sFCXR7fiMRp2mzWpJ2ZGvP1eQcsAiLn5P5vopV3CwZN0LMp-o_YipIJqM4kFVeZ86Vet2c_wREKr
Ro7IUxOb9g20qyfAMGJ0phnxKVXFQ5qNRLOg9TLIwi4Ms-wpAxpeq8ZIdkgikMmR_rur1G8NhENv
wxgr0ijz16gHe_inouMmY4S3SJf0hz9NFlZlnkvwrcATMKqgXbP1H-cA/https%3A%2F%2Fapac0
1.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.com/1tL8Sb1p7RZqwUCP_dOYeCDwt47rRfiPvwb9IFjg6O7-R-OqIMVvVC7GRhwX8wouMM0gN8XDNxczXp0y_Wyh8HDahfPTejwOZqyHFRMaFG0nvSMtAv6HJ3thmnDXrXsULDNgG11ESLEODjlmx6rPkTF0DwzHN2bKS5Y9dAddFTkgBDVj0VSGz39LBT4_D6W9oZDe1mclBG12pi7Wa6jriWziALOfemUUMA0XokaPmcxFAkNJCUOcb0T6WS4v1eUE3FLLC-MqI6bWHt2ZPoCfJ-IJD-jlBnXOgRkREbbyyM2T2tJo09tUUaWpZVICoXF4niip2qXjCc_Y7BlcRDcyTUj7D-DL52GcIRlRGIhREP3uJSZwQx45U2hVM03U_klT6ZFjEvKylGq2kGibv8l2exXpoDPXjM8FUrEo3Zb1w1pnB-s--4eSCM56Va5thrkXs/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomb
erg.com%252Fview%252Farticles%252F2018-04-17%252Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-
the-oldest-in-the-government%26data%3D02%257C01%257Callan.staller%2540HCL.CO
M%257C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%257C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%
257C0%257C0%257C636595832636753536%26sdata%3DP6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBN
o13loxSL1%252F9k%253D%26reserved%3D0
>>
>> -- gil
>>
>> ...


--
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Steve Beaver]

IBM ALCS became zTFP.  That is generally all in Assembler, unless you use
JAVA.  But JAVA is way too slow

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 1:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

>  code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old

That would be 1958; at best a 7070, possibly something older. There's no
7070 emulator on modern hardware and a lot of IRS code was written for TPF,
which didn't exist in 1958.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of
Joel C. Ewing <jcew...@acm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

I read the referenced article.   The title was obviously written by
someone who isn't sufficiently computer-literate to understand that a
computer is hardware and that application code is NOT a computer.

The text of the article flat out says the IRS has repeatedly updated
hardware over the years.  The reported problem is that it's still
dependent on some code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old
and difficult to maintain.  That's an entirely different problem than
the title implies.
Joel C Ewing

On 04/17/2018 01:14 PM, Gerhard Adam wrote:
> Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller <allan.stal...@hcl.com>
wrote:
>>
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at
least 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
>>
>> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>>
>> Mostly historical:
>>
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1HUD7gS18J2SMvyHer13UGZYsxceOizT4D1VOqtoFD_825N
wi4JT_x6TKjOg2a64UARRNmGzasJv406vRVV6L21DtdaB6xLfwiL2_PjCIF4GiI8kpZ90mwEzoAB
ARlgsrrwynvfHfsTsjpjusrvN6FLQJZBVCsQjQJj6ToGgDjL9uc_eVNjbVhQVgALPgEf7wg8Tm6V
sFCXR7fiMRp2mzWpJ2ZGvP1eQcsAiLn5P5vopV3CwZN0LMp-o_YipIJqM4kFVeZ86Vet2c_wREKr
Ro7IUxOb9g20qyfAMGJ0phnxKVXFQ5qNRLOg9TLIwi4Ms-wpAxpeq8ZIdkgikMmR_rur1G8NhENv
wxgr0ijz16gHe_inouMmY4S3SJf0hz9NFlZlnkvwrcATMKqgXbP1H-cA/https%3A%2F%2Fapac0
1.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.bloomb
erg.com%252Fview%252Farticles%252F2018-04-17%252Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-
the-oldest-in-the-government%26data%3D02%257C01%257Callan.staller%2540HCL.CO
M%257C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%257C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%
257C0%257C0%257C636595832636753536%26sdata%3DP6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBN
o13loxSL1%252F9k%253D%26reserved%3D0
>>
>> -- gil
>>
>> ...


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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Seymour J Metz]

>  code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old

That would be 1958; at best a 7070, possibly something older. There's no 7070 
emulator on modern hardware and a lot of IRS code was written for TPF, which 
didn't exist in 1958.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
Joel C. Ewing <jcew...@acm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 10:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

I read the referenced article.   The title was obviously written by
someone who isn't sufficiently computer-literate to understand that a
computer is hardware and that application code is NOT a computer.

The text of the article flat out says the IRS has repeatedly updated
hardware over the years.  The reported problem is that it's still
dependent on some code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old
and difficult to maintain.  That's an entirely different problem than
the title implies.
Joel C Ewing

On 04/17/2018 01:14 PM, Gerhard Adam wrote:
> Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller <allan.stal...@hcl.com> wrote:
>>
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 
>> 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
>>
>> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>> Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>>
>> Mostly historical:
>>
>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1HUD7gS18J2SMvyHer13UGZYsxceOizT4D1VOqtoFD_825Nwi4JT_x6TKjOg2a64UARRNmGzasJv406vRVV6L21DtdaB6xLfwiL2_PjCIF4GiI8kpZ90mwEzoABARlgsrrwynvfHfsTsjpjusrvN6FLQJZBVCsQjQJj6ToGgDjL9uc_eVNjbVhQVgALPgEf7wg8Tm6VsFCXR7fiMRp2mzWpJ2ZGvP1eQcsAiLn5P5vopV3CwZN0LMp-o_YipIJqM4kFVeZ86Vet2c_wREKrRo7IUxOb9g20qyfAMGJ0phnxKVXFQ5qNRLOg9TLIwi4Ms-wpAxpeq8ZIdkgikMmR_rur1G8NhENvwxgr0ijz16gHe_inouMmY4S3SJf0hz9NFlZlnkvwrcATMKqgXbP1H-cA/https%3A%2F%2Fapac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.bloomberg.com%252Fview%252Farticles%252F2018-04-17%252Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government%26data%3D02%257C01%257Callan.staller%2540HCL.COM%257C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%257C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%257C0%257C0%257C636595832636753536%26sdata%3DP6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%252F9k%253D%26reserved%3D0
>>
>> -- gil
>>
>> ...


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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Edward Finnell]

Know thy data. Was on a code review of a particularly long running job that was 
doing a COBOL sort break on totals. It was millions of records but there were 
only three different record types. So we did a hash and sum. Reduced the run 
time from over 4 hrs to 14 minutes. 


In a message dated 4/18/2018 1:12:11 PM Central Standard Time, 
john.archie.mck...@gmail.com writes:

 
​If you want to "add up a column of numbers", I suggest APL "sum←+/column​"

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[John McKown]

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Frank Swarbrick <
frank.swarbr...@outlook.com> wrote:

> I dare say it probably makes more sense to use COBOL over Java to "add up
> a column of numbers".  
>
>
​If you want to "add up a column of numbers", I suggest APL "sum←+/column​"

-- 
We all have skeletons in our closet.
Mine are so old, they have osteoporosis.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Frank Swarbrick]

I dare say it probably makes more sense to use COBOL over Java to "add up a 
column of numbers".  

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of 
Larre Shiller <0102cb4997b0-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 3:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:19:07 -0700, Ed Jaffe <edja...@phoenixsoftware.com> 
wrote:

>On 4/17/2018 3:55 PM, Edward Gould wrote:
>>
>> I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
>> *WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
>> not), please?
>
>SSA runs one of the most sophisticated data centers of any government
>agency I've seen.
>
>They own all the latest kit and participate in nearly every z/OS ESP. I
>know this for FACT!
>
Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".

And speaking of IT modernization efforts, I thought that this was rather timely 
and informative:

https://federalnewsradio.com/it-modernization-month-2018/2018/04/social-security-on-schedule-to-modernize-it-systems-by/

...it's a 20 minute listen, but it gives you a good idea as to where we are and 
where we are headed in the future.

I guess you could get into a discussion about what we are running that is "out 
of date", but certainly our IT infrastructure is *not*.  Are 40 year old COBOL 
programs "out of date"...?  Well... they may have some "technical debt" 
associated with them and sometimes maintaining them can be challenging, but 
does it really matter if I'm running a COBOL or a JAVA program to add up a 
column of numbers?

Larre Shiller
US Social Security Administration

“The opinions expressed in this e-mail are mine personally and do not 
necessarily reflect the opinion of the US Social Security Administration and/or 
the US Government.”

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Donald J]

>Though the IRS has periodically upgraded its computing system, 
>today’s system is still running the same code, which was written 
>nearly 60 years ago.

Six years ago, they had job openings listed for 200 assembler
programmers spread across a dozen cities.  Guess maybe those 
people haven't installed a line of their code yet.

> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 9:57 PM
> From: "Joel C. Ewing" <jcew...@acm.org>
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>
> I read the referenced article.   The title was obviously written by
> someone who isn't sufficiently computer-literate to understand that a
> computer is hardware and that application code is NOT a computer.
> 
> The text of the article flat out says the IRS has repeatedly updated
> hardware over the years.  The reported problem is that it's still
> dependent on some code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old
> and difficult to maintain.  That's an entirely different problem than
> the title implies.
>     Joel C Ewing
> 
> On 04/17/2018 01:14 PM, Gerhard Adam wrote:
> > Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.  
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller <allan.stal...@hcl.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 
> >> 30 years I am aware of.
> >> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> >>
> >> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
> >> Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
> >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> >> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
> >>
> >> Mostly historical:
> >>
> >> https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C636595832636753536=P6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%2F9k%3D=0
> >>
> >> -- gil
> >>
> >> ...
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR   jcew...@acm.org   
> 
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Christopher Y. Blaicher]

As with almost anything, have you built it to the scale it needs to be to 
support the load?

A matchstick bridge can show you what the bridge will look like, but you can't 
drive a semi across it.

That was a failure in scale, not in hardware.  It was poor planning on 
someone's part.  They didn't expect the response they got.

Chris Blaicher
Technical Architect
Mainframe Development
P: 201-930-8234  |  M: 512-627-3803
E: cblaic...@syncsort.com

Syncsort Incorporated
2 Blue Hill Plaza #1563
Pearl River, NY 10965
www.syncsort.com

Data quality leader Trillium Software is now a part of Syncsort.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Kirk Wolf
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 10:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Be careful what you ask for I think that Healthcare.gov used "new 
computers" :-)

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Kirk Wolf]

Be careful what you ask for I think that Healthcare.gov used "new
computers" :-)

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Allan Staller]

Hey Shane, long time no see.
Welcome Back!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Shane G
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 8:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 04:54:58 -0500, Larre Shiller <larre.shil...@ssa.gov> wrote:

>>Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
>>on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".

Funny the things that catch your (my) eye - was cruising and noticed this on 
the google mirror. Been out long enough, figured I can be a (disinterested) 
lurker now.
I can't believe none of the Aussies subscribed have commented. Our Social 
Security people (whatever they are called this week) have also been getting 
hammered for years about their stone-age computer environment. OK, M204 is 
flint, but what the hell; they too run decent kit.

It works, and it'd better keep working. Been there, seen it, tremble at the 
thought of the dills proposing it all be chucked out for SAP on Windoze or 
some-such ...
Let's hope the proponents for Linux continue to have some wins.

Shane ...

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Shane G]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 04:54:58 -0500, Larre Shiller  wrote:

>>Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
>>on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".

Funny the things that catch your (my) eye - was cruising and noticed this on 
the google mirror. Been out long enough, figured I can be a (disinterested) 
lurker now.
I can't believe none of the Aussies subscribed have commented. Our Social 
Security people (whatever they are called this week) have also been getting 
hammered for years about their stone-age computer environment. OK, M204 is 
flint, but what the hell; they too run decent kit.

It works, and it'd better keep working. Been there, seen it, tremble at the 
thought of the dills proposing it all be chucked out for SAP on Windoze or 
some-such ...
Let's hope the proponents for Linux continue to have some wins.

Shane ...

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Larre Shiller]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:19:07 -0700, Ed Jaffe  
wrote:

>On 4/17/2018 3:55 PM, Edward Gould wrote:
>>
>> I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
>> *WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
>> not), please?
>
>SSA runs one of the most sophisticated data centers of any government
>agency I've seen.
>
>They own all the latest kit and participate in nearly every z/OS ESP. I
>know this for FACT!
>
Gee, thanks Ed...!  It's certainly not easy managing 150,000MIPS of WebShpere 
on Z, let alone the 150,000 GP MIPS of "everything else".

And speaking of IT modernization efforts, I thought that this was rather timely 
and informative:

https://federalnewsradio.com/it-modernization-month-2018/2018/04/social-security-on-schedule-to-modernize-it-systems-by/

...it's a 20 minute listen, but it gives you a good idea as to where we are and 
where we are headed in the future.

I guess you could get into a discussion about what we are running that is "out 
of date", but certainly our IT infrastructure is *not*.  Are 40 year old COBOL 
programs "out of date"...?  Well... they may have some "technical debt" 
associated with them and sometimes maintaining them can be challenging, but 
does it really matter if I'm running a COBOL or a JAVA program to add up a 
column of numbers?

Larre Shiller
US Social Security Administration
 
“The opinions expressed in this e-mail are mine personally and do not 
necessarily reflect the opinion of the US Social Security Administration and/or 
the US Government.”

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Joel C. Ewing]

I read the referenced article.   The title was obviously written by
someone who isn't sufficiently computer-literate to understand that a
computer is hardware and that application code is NOT a computer.

The text of the article flat out says the IRS has repeatedly updated
hardware over the years.  The reported problem is that it's still
dependent on some code, written in assembler, that may be 60 years old
and difficult to maintain.  That's an entirely different problem than
the title implies.
    Joel C Ewing

On 04/17/2018 01:14 PM, Gerhard Adam wrote:
> Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.  
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller  wrote:
>>
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 
>> 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
>>
>> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>> Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
>>
>> Mostly historical:
>>
>> https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C636595832636753536=P6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%2F9k%3D=0
>>
>> -- gil
>>
>> ...


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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Ed Jaffe]

On 4/17/2018 3:55 PM, Edward Gould wrote:


I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
*WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
not), please?


SSA runs one of the most sophisticated data centers of any government 
agency I've seen.


They own all the latest kit and participate in nearly every z/OS ESP. I 
know this for FACT!


--
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Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Edward Gould]

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Allan Staller  wrote:
> 
> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 30 
> years I am aware of.
> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> 
> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON……

Allen:

I can’t speak to the IRS but the Social Security system (last I heard) was 
*WAY* out of date by at least 20 years (maybe more). Can anyone verify (or 
not), please?

Ed


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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Steve Beaver]

All the FED Centers are way to date.  

If there was a processor that had measurable CP's faster than 5.4Ghz the
FEDS would own a lot of them

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Gerhard Adam
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 4:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Since I was actually in the IRS data center a few months ago, the idea of 30
year old technology is absurd.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Ed Jaffe <edja...@phoenixsoftware.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 4/17/2018 11:09 AM, Allan Staller wrote:
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at
least 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> 
> The IRS folks that attend SHARE from time-to-time (from Virginia?) seem to
be running the latest and greatest IBM Z hardware and peripherals.
> 
> Having said that, there might be several different IRS data centers around
the country...
> 
> -- 
> Phoenix Software International
> Edward E. Jaffe
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
>


> This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Gerhard Adam]

Since I was actually in the IRS data center a few months ago, the idea of 30 
year old technology is absurd.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 1:22 PM, Ed Jaffe  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/17/2018 11:09 AM, Allan Staller wrote:
>> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 
>> 30 years I am aware of.
>> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> 
> The IRS folks that attend SHARE from time-to-time (from Virginia?) seem to be 
> running the latest and greatest IBM Z hardware and peripherals.
> 
> Having said that, there might be several different IRS data centers around 
> the country...
> 
> -- 
> Phoenix Software International
> Edward E. Jaffe
> 831 Parkview Drive North
> El Segundo, CA 90245
> http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
> 
> This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Ed Jaffe]

On 4/17/2018 11:09 AM, Allan Staller wrote:

The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 30 
years I am aware of.
It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.


The IRS folks that attend SHARE from time-to-time (from Virginia?) seem 
to be running the latest and greatest IBM Z hardware and peripherals.


Having said that, there might be several different IRS data centers 
around the country...


--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Dyck, Lionel B. (TRA)]

The solution is to simplify the tax code - thus - and you don't need computers

https://www.arcamax.com/thefunnies/wizardofid/s-2068368

--
Lionel B. Dyck (Contractor)  <
Mainframe Systems Programmer – RavenTek Solution Partners

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Edward Finnell
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 2:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Just the environmentals from bipolar to CMOS was a huge incentive. 
Unfortunately made more room for squatty boxen.


In a message dated 4/17/2018 1:56:59 PM Central Standard Time, 
cvitu...@hughes.net writes:

 
somewhat to get up to speed with hardware and software that was compliant.  

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Edward Finnell]

Just the environmentals from bipolar to CMOS was a huge incentive. 
Unfortunately made more room for squatty boxen.


In a message dated 4/17/2018 1:56:59 PM Central Standard Time, 
cvitu...@hughes.net writes:

 
somewhat to get up to speed with hardware and software that was compliant.  

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Carmen Vitullo]

That may have been true pre Y2K, I recall having to keep one TRI-density tape 
drives around so we can read/cut tapes for the U.S. Navy back in the late 80's 
and early 90's, but as a contractor working for state Government pre Y2K, money 
was flowing somewhat to get up to speed with hardware and software that was 
compliant.   


Carmen Vitullo 

- Original Message -

From: "Chris Hoelscher" <choelsc...@humana.com> 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:04:23 PM 
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers 

Wow - that old hardware really ... taxes ... the system 

Chris Hoelscher 
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services 
Technology Solution Services 
Humana Inc. 
123 East Main Street 
Louisville, KY 40202 
Humana.com 
(502) 476-2538 or 407-7266 

-Original Message- 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz 
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:39 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers 

More hysterical than historical; the IRS stopped running on a 7070 a long time 
ago, and has been using TPF since Old Man Noach cornerend the market on Gopher 
wood. 


-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz 
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 

 
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:33 PM 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu 
Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers 

Mostly historical: 
    
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1BeyIJBPo9ZfJfCvwPOsnXMTj6VdtiYM9V6TXEeG0B4pfYzfTdjKZvd-iFM1W4bMXoPQ8pIHS9fR6d5x1BJZLnFkZQ0AV3DnL14MQNC3emqVKFX7th-e8sjiNj1GQ9IDt3zTSIpseBuVAG51P3EmDOoIKML4jUec0MRTKNPk-b3w1Z9ayvtZ5wPEYJEkpZ42yxaHBTI7qvRgI4pfRrCLhzAm7ch-dOz72C6Lmt6PUiXOgNC72fCYZOdKKpGGBGcawiqYwaUVAyFNLkfb_IclY4-CW76LBFOzJJpaVila-Gnut3hZl0Le0ovBmWzd3pQlj6w43TP9ErHQzu2vd1sj1WXpQex4aQV4aoXMvb-oNhVYhrOTKe-KN0RudzJmNJQqmuKr7uQAFKlAPHgcgxqpPSPeAUtXj_nEXZZ8W2EB-opRudaiXMUD-aqPpGVperbS4/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government
 

-- gil 

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

li...@akphs.com (Phil Smith III) writes:
> "Plans to replace the IMF with a twenty-first-century equivalent known as
> CADE (Customer Account Data Engine) have faltered. The transition is now
> well behind schedule. As a consequence, the likelihood of a catastrophic
> computer failure during tax season increases with every passing year. That
> may not pose quite the same danger as an errant missile, but the prospect of
> lost refund checks, unnecessary audits, and other errors suggests that the
> time has come to bring the IRS into the 21st century."
>
> Because.of bitrot? C'mon. That graf is just stupid: ain't no catastrophic
> failure coming because they're running old, well-tested code. SMH.
>
> Wow, lattice of coincidence: after I hit SEND but before this went, I got
> the following from a friend:
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/irs-tax-payment-site-down-as-agency-works-to
> -resolve-issue.html
>
> Insider news suggests catastrophic system failure. 
>
> Still not due to the software being old, though!

10-15yrs ago got brought in to look at some of it ... beltway bandits
had contracts for modernization projects ... where they had bunch of
newly minted graduates that went thru process classes on modern project
management and modern programming. There was huge amount of mainframe
assembler code that the beltway bandits never got to the point of
understanding and the projects failed.

however, there was article a decade ago about (mostly) dataprocessing
modernization projects where the beltway bandits had realized that they
made more money off a series of failures ... not just IRS but many other
gov. agencies
http://www.govexec.com/excellence/management-matters/2007/04/the-success-of-failure/24107/

part of it was beltway bandits and other gov. contractors were being
bought up by private-equity companies and were under heavy pressure to
cut corners every way possible as passing money up to their owners.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/10/barbarians-capitol-private-equity-public-enemy/

Lou Gerstner, former ceo of ibm, now heads the Carlyle Group, a
Washington-based global private equity firm whose 2006 revenues of $87
billion were just a few billion below ibm's. Carlyle has boasted George
H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and former Secretary of State James Baker III
on its employee roster.

... snip ...

includes buying beltway bandit that will employee Snowden
... intelligence 70% of budget and over half the people
http://www.investingdaily.com/17693/spies-like-us

part of it is illegal to use gov. contract money for lobbying congress,
however private equity owners don't appear to be any such restrictions
(so PE operations could buy up beltway bandits and boost revenue with
lobbying).

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Steve Beaver]

They have several z13's and a couple of emperor penguins'


  

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Gerhard Adam
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:15 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller <allan.stal...@hcl.com> wrote:
> 
> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least
30 years I am aware of.
> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> 
> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
> 
> Mostly historical:
>
https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloom
berg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-old
est-in-the-government=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C792c5b7241dd4
15a210308d5a48970ff%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C63659583263
6753536=P6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%2F9k%3D=0
> 
> -- gil
> 
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>



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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Phil Smith III]

"Plans to replace the IMF with a twenty-first-century equivalent known as
CADE (Customer Account Data Engine) have faltered. The transition is now
well behind schedule. As a consequence, the likelihood of a catastrophic
computer failure during tax season increases with every passing year. That
may not pose quite the same danger as an errant missile, but the prospect of
lost refund checks, unnecessary audits, and other errors suggests that the
time has come to bring the IRS into the 21st century."

 

Because.of bitrot? C'mon. That graf is just stupid: ain't no catastrophic
failure coming because they're running old, well-tested code. SMH.

 

Wow, lattice of coincidence: after I hit SEND but before this went, I got
the following from a friend:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/17/irs-tax-payment-site-down-as-agency-works-to
-resolve-issue.html

 

Insider news suggests catastrophic system failure. 

 

Still not due to the software being old, though!


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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Gerhard Adam]

Nonsense, the IRS is running Z/13's , etc.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 17, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Allan Staller  wrote:
> 
> The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 30 
> years I am aware of.
> It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.
> 
> The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
> Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers
> 
> Mostly historical:
>
> https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C636595832636753536=P6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%2F9k%3D=0
> 
> -- gil
> 
> --
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> lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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> --
> The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and 
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> corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses 
> in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred 
> errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or 
> its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely 
> those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of 
> HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, 
> disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message 
> without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is 
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete 
> it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or 
> attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects.
> --
> 
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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Allan Staller]

The IRS has been trying to upgrade both hardware and software for at least 30 
years I am aware of.
It keeps getting shot down by Congress in the appropriations process.

The opposite of PROGRESS is CON..

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 12:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Mostly historical:

https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government=02%7C01%7Callan.staller%40HCL.COM%7C792c5b7241dd415a210308d5a48970ff%7C189de737c93a4f5a8b686f4ca9941912%7C0%7C0%7C636595832636753536=P6KLIEcmkgNFa4lZeymrTbaQ4XCmyBNo13loxSL1%2F9k%3D=0

-- gil

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Chris Hoelscher]

Wow - that old hardware really ... taxes ... the system 

Chris Hoelscher
Technology Architect, Database Infrastructure Services
Technology Solution Services
Humana Inc.
123 East Main Street
Louisville, KY 40202
Humana.com
(502) 476-2538 or 407-7266

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

More hysterical than historical; the IRS stopped running on a 7070 a long time 
ago, and has been using TPF since Old Man Noach cornerend the market on Gopher 
wood.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Mostly historical:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1BeyIJBPo9ZfJfCvwPOsnXMTj6VdtiYM9V6TXEeG0B4pfYzfTdjKZvd-iFM1W4bMXoPQ8pIHS9fR6d5x1BJZLnFkZQ0AV3DnL14MQNC3emqVKFX7th-e8sjiNj1GQ9IDt3zTSIpseBuVAG51P3EmDOoIKML4jUec0MRTKNPk-b3w1Z9ayvtZ5wPEYJEkpZ42yxaHBTI7qvRgI4pfRrCLhzAm7ch-dOz72C6Lmt6PUiXOgNC72fCYZOdKKpGGBGcawiqYwaUVAyFNLkfb_IclY4-CW76LBFOzJJpaVila-Gnut3hZl0Le0ovBmWzd3pQlj6w43TP9ErHQzu2vd1sj1WXpQex4aQV4aoXMvb-oNhVYhrOTKe-KN0RudzJmNJQqmuKr7uQAFKlAPHgcgxqpPSPeAUtXj_nEXZZ8W2EB-opRudaiXMUD-aqPpGVperbS4/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government

-- gil

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Re: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

[Seymour J Metz]

More hysterical than historical; the IRS stopped running on a 7070 a long time 
ago, and has been using TPF since Old Man Noach cornerend the market on Gopher 
wood.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 1:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: The IRS Really Needs Some New Computers

Mostly historical:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1BeyIJBPo9ZfJfCvwPOsnXMTj6VdtiYM9V6TXEeG0B4pfYzfTdjKZvd-iFM1W4bMXoPQ8pIHS9fR6d5x1BJZLnFkZQ0AV3DnL14MQNC3emqVKFX7th-e8sjiNj1GQ9IDt3zTSIpseBuVAG51P3EmDOoIKML4jUec0MRTKNPk-b3w1Z9ayvtZ5wPEYJEkpZ42yxaHBTI7qvRgI4pfRrCLhzAm7ch-dOz72C6Lmt6PUiXOgNC72fCYZOdKKpGGBGcawiqYwaUVAyFNLkfb_IclY4-CW76LBFOzJJpaVila-Gnut3hZl0Le0ovBmWzd3pQlj6w43TP9ErHQzu2vd1sj1WXpQex4aQV4aoXMvb-oNhVYhrOTKe-KN0RudzJmNJQqmuKr7uQAFKlAPHgcgxqpPSPeAUtXj_nEXZZ8W2EB-opRudaiXMUD-aqPpGVperbS4/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fview%2Farticles%2F2018-04-17%2Fthe-irs-computer-system-is-the-oldest-in-the-government

-- gil

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