Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

IBM-MAIN is a listserv-based online forum, and wikipedia does not consider 
online fora, including wiki itself, to be reliable sources. Unfortunately, 
neither I nor any other subscriber to IBM-MAIN controls the wiki rules or their 
interpretations.

I ran into this before with the issue of CKD drives that are fixed block under 
the covers and the issue of when ECKD started, and I've concluded that it's a 
hostile working environment due to the lack of an effective mechanism for 
conflict resolution (arbitration requires consent of all involved editors.) As 
a result, I no longer do large updates to hardware-related articles, although I 
haven't yet encountered similar problems with software articles.

I only edit the English wikipepedia, but the underlying issues apply regardless 
of the language.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 3, 2021 10:02 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Shmuel wrote:
>No, if challenged you need a citation with claims about colloquial usage.

And IBM-MAIN posts aren't sufficient? Why not? That's pretty darned colloquial! 
(Yes, I feel like we're going in circles here, but it's not your fault or 
mine--it's that this requirement, while well-intentioned, seems to miss 
something!)

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

W dniu 03.11.2021 o 15:02, Phil Smith III pisze:

Shmuel wrote:

No, if challenged you need a citation with claims about colloquial usage.

And IBM-MAIN posts aren't sufficient? Why not? That's pretty darned colloquial! 
(Yes, I feel like we're going in circles here, but it's not your fault or 
mine--it's that this requirement, while well-intentioned, seems to miss 
something!)


It was discussed several times. Any book, even with false & stupid 
content is a source. Many Internet blogs and portals can be considered 
as a source. One can establish such page just to have a source.


BTW: I had a discussion with polish wiki "censor" who demanded to 
provide reliable source for the street existence. Yes, in Łódź there is 
Hersza Berlińskiego street. You can check it and even see buildings 
within minutes. It can found using google maps, openstreetmap, and 
several other e-maps. And every printed map. However it is not enough to 
say there is such street or even provide link to some e-map. No way.
However it strongly depend on the reviewer, not on the rule. I provided 
several examples of names with no link to any source (even unreliable), 
and the names were much harder to check than street name - no effect.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Phil Smith III]

Shmuel wrote:
>No, if challenged you need a citation with claims about colloquial usage.

And IBM-MAIN posts aren't sufficient? Why not? That's pretty darned colloquial! 
(Yes, I feel like we're going in circles here, but it's not your fault or 
mine--it's that this requirement, while well-intentioned, seems to miss 
something!)

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

I'm not the editor, but if you click on the second URL, you should see "view 
history" at the top of the page. Look for the most recent October 29, 2021 
update and click on previous. That will show you the change in question.

As previously noted, it was stuffer that was deleted rather than picker.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 10:45 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 19:45:37 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" from 
>[[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation "Really remove unreferenced OR". 
>Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that I can cite?
>
I stumbled on a mention in a Redbook (remember Redbooks?):
ZE11
System z and Storage Synergy
Scott Drummond s...@us.ibm.com
18 - 20 September, 2012 IBM Forum Brussels

I may have fumbled away the URL.  Perhaps:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwit94_zlPvzAhVBlGoFHbbFDMQQFnoECAoQAQ&url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fwww.redbooks.ibm.com%2Fredbooks%2F2012_ITSO_Total_Solution_Event_System_z_Brussels%2Ftrack_03_New_Technologies_on_zEnterprise%2FZE11_%2520System_z_and_Storage_Synergy_September_11_2012.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dHbjFmr4HYw8kOEqcDPod

Ugh!  Google Tracker!

Or: 
<https://secure-web.cisco.com/1XtVQhXX5g5aNC0oBe9Plp74lED_0TNtSjo_gU9OsU6aScu4gA4-C0gI1JjMNI5mGo_-iMxyc20yeTEHcKKPfhAJulV8wAFnIjGDmzyheMvf50zzpzyS0EPF53TbIOXTbzWpwxPxOWHbEeygWQrYF-OgfBZH_oODu38fPeAxHxdbBaLrVu_ybsg0-g5M5kx63u3ay-FdfmtLdFgy2mAwY--Ke5rA6BSvbzcPyR_4r39SoZsWLBPi5laPDUC3G_2dN29a9YxXv0DnFhmYa0p51qJtBvEZXo8O8zDOMeu89lGqlJFIUUExUaqhMm_T52sI87w-CnW1kGlnJFEzOjHBUCB7SLgmE3jSjeG9Nk45HmZQHDfPISNYIUeR-mERtoaBYO3U6WKtX1XEZQ66n2zF66VAL5k7axySZcJW2BsFktExPp7_HhO6nwZvsMbZtkIji/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIBM_2321_Data_Cell>
(But is that Shmuel's  own article?)

-- gil

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 19:45:37 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" from 
>[[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation "Really remove unreferenced OR". 
>Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that I can cite?
> 
I stumbled on a mention in a Redbook (remember Redbooks?):
ZE11
System z and Storage Synergy
Scott Drummond s...@us.ibm.com
18 - 20 September, 2012 IBM Forum Brussels

I may have fumbled away the URL.  Perhaps:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwit94_zlPvzAhVBlGoFHbbFDMQQFnoECAoQAQ&url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fwww.redbooks.ibm.com%2Fredbooks%2F2012_ITSO_Total_Solution_Event_System_z_Brussels%2Ftrack_03_New_Technologies_on_zEnterprise%2FZE11_%2520System_z_and_Storage_Synergy_September_11_2012.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dHbjFmr4HYw8kOEqcDPod

Ugh!  Google Tracker!

Or: 
(But is that Shmuel's  own article?)

-- gil

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

No, no and no. 

There were direct access storage devices in the 1950s.

MBBCCHHR is not the address that goes over the channel.

M applies to all DASD, not just the 2321.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Warren Brown 
Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 6:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

 Noodle picker is the grand daddy of DASD it you at DASD address you'l see 
MBBCCHHRR THE  first characters NBB are good for noodle picker only. On 
Tuesday, November 2, 2021, 06:02:31 PM EDT, Phil Smith III  
wrote:

 I of course understand Wikipedia's desire for citation, but in cases like
this it's probably just not possible.



Would it maybe pass muster if it says something like "colloquially known as
the 'noodle picker'"? That makes it clearer that it's not official and
perhaps unverifiable.


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Ed Jaffe]

On 11/2/2021 3:13 PM, Warren Brown wrote:

Noodle picker is the grand daddy of DASD it you at DASD address you'l see 
MBBCCHHRR THE  first characters NBB are good for noodle picker only.


I thought only BB were used for picking noodles.

M is still by DASD to indicate which extent you wish to access. On a 
multivolume data set, each extent could be on a different device.


--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/



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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Warren Brown]

 Noodle picker is the grand daddy of DASD it you at DASD address you'l see 
MBBCCHHRR THE  first characters NBB are good for noodle picker only. On 
Tuesday, November 2, 2021, 06:02:31 PM EDT, Phil Smith III  
wrote:  
 
 I of course understand Wikipedia's desire for citation, but in cases like
this it's probably just not possible.

 

Would it maybe pass muster if it says something like "colloquially known as
the 'noodle picker'"? That makes it clearer that it's not official and
perhaps unverifiable.


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

No, if challenged you need a citation with claims about colloquial usage.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Phil Smith III 
Sent: Tuesday, November 2, 2021 6:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I of course understand Wikipedia's desire for citation, but in cases like
this it's probably just not possible.



Would it maybe pass muster if it says something like "colloquially known as
the 'noodle picker'"? That makes it clearer that it's not official and
perhaps unverifiable.


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Phil Smith III]

I of course understand Wikipedia's desire for citation, but in cases like
this it's probably just not possible.

 

Would it maybe pass muster if it says something like "colloquially known as
the 'noodle picker'"? That makes it clearer that it's not official and
perhaps unverifiable.


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Charles Mills]

Cherry Picker seems inappropriate. Noodle picker, yes. 

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2021 6:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Thanks. Cherry picker is a name I never heard, only noodle.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2021 7:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GvszZPHumTPju5DoT2fdiAkecbA0bVOp_b_yccLtJA6j4K
tseTK0HjtJST7jpdQs1rQs9FnKpZ0bQQ-OsKgnzU0ac-u5-dVTv0l5qvr6veyywefyz2dS4HD2tI
nCoGybs3Iy_U-GXFnFfdkY8uao5P2CvTJji8umyvBlnR7Gij7hWQuAubkFK0WQb9BUC70RHPxZXM
gVh75qM_FQaySu1V3H9APfPPLUesip_n2E1DBhJxJyYsAp-okrKXkK2tjMoQ5FarsGEDBD9PXcJb
X_gDU7UJUpBg9ceUhIuU9eufSMyIUfHqqEY6mSuOI8qYOt4unsBbS_p-r1wkU2CelyKLO3vygA0W
ltgRrLUw8-HRZhZxIsVeGfxfVGzc0XAdDcGbm5z-exWiikxwSF_iNBIlW0yAU8FHiCizHlH7jAzd
tTLzJKo4lH74V3ME_dmXUJ/https%3A%2F%2Fen-academic.com%2Fdic.nsf%2Fenwiki%2F18
042 Scroll down to Disk and Drum
Storage

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjf
_Pin6fXzAhWNGTQIHTPrAOwQFnoECB8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshare.confex.com%2Fshar
e%2F117%2Fwebprogram%2FHandout%2FSession9958%2FSystem%2520z%2520and%2520Stor
age%2520Synergy.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2KmABJiWzrp608VTXQBkex watch the wrap,
obviously

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 8:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I get a bunch of hits on discussions, which wiki wouldn't consider reliable.
Could you provide URLs for the SHARE and academic references? Thanks.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Charles Mills 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 6:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I Googled 2321 noodle picker and got a bunch of hits.

I just started to paste them here but they are Google links as long as your
arm. Just Google <2321 noodle picker>. Also .

Here it is in a "printed newspaper":
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1IV9S5J8m0txW4qG18jH6pVkspIk-15BI5QOyjvmSLLzKpG
Oi_xD8Eh70aeqiWl5vSXX2E_LwtxndId2o6ZDCZFM-e3M72yhMsWXaLcy2B6xnknxOfOcDW6PrTI
TkVI7IxyGRudO_GcnjYygn2zPkiDW3-OVE0R9JKBRj6McavhKseNGoMjsHSH2w7qHFJPig5ISroK
Qjn_fJNyDx3420G8dBIyq9U4gJ4gdbdgDxT8-iPC3r4q4ZKbCC9t2uT7xzbOopQZO78TBZW0OSkv
ltXLG5dtZS0oRDKci3E99f14dJFQQ44jpTR83erVDaEf5nVPw0HptGF8MajXWM8g04pKdvevNAK3
Qw69sUezopTMSs2AKHaPHLOEkfpg0MWHoGQI9FPhtSsrtaD-Aq1fL7bTojY3tz18XpkyePv8NJYF
tIXPJr4oaFQTnYnGH5w1-I/https%3A%2F%2Fforums.theregister.com%2Fpost%2F637087

I found a SHARE presentation and some academic Web site.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals
of computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating
on software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with
other editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
Gr

Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

Thanks. Cherry picker is a name I never heard, only noodle.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2021 7:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1GvszZPHumTPju5DoT2fdiAkecbA0bVOp_b_yccLtJA6j4KtseTK0HjtJST7jpdQs1rQs9FnKpZ0bQQ-OsKgnzU0ac-u5-dVTv0l5qvr6veyywefyz2dS4HD2tInCoGybs3Iy_U-GXFnFfdkY8uao5P2CvTJji8umyvBlnR7Gij7hWQuAubkFK0WQb9BUC70RHPxZXMgVh75qM_FQaySu1V3H9APfPPLUesip_n2E1DBhJxJyYsAp-okrKXkK2tjMoQ5FarsGEDBD9PXcJbX_gDU7UJUpBg9ceUhIuU9eufSMyIUfHqqEY6mSuOI8qYOt4unsBbS_p-r1wkU2CelyKLO3vygA0WltgRrLUw8-HRZhZxIsVeGfxfVGzc0XAdDcGbm5z-exWiikxwSF_iNBIlW0yAU8FHiCizHlH7jAzdtTLzJKo4lH74V3ME_dmXUJ/https%3A%2F%2Fen-academic.com%2Fdic.nsf%2Fenwiki%2F18042
 Scroll down to Disk and Drum
Storage

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjf
_Pin6fXzAhWNGTQIHTPrAOwQFnoECB8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshare.confex.com%2Fshar
e%2F117%2Fwebprogram%2FHandout%2FSession9958%2FSystem%2520z%2520and%2520Stor
age%2520Synergy.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2KmABJiWzrp608VTXQBkex watch the wrap,
obviously

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 8:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I get a bunch of hits on discussions, which wiki wouldn't consider reliable.
Could you provide URLs for the SHARE and academic references? Thanks.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Charles Mills 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 6:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I Googled 2321 noodle picker and got a bunch of hits.

I just started to paste them here but they are Google links as long as your
arm. Just Google <2321 noodle picker>. Also .

Here it is in a "printed newspaper":
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1IV9S5J8m0txW4qG18jH6pVkspIk-15BI5QOyjvmSLLzKpG
Oi_xD8Eh70aeqiWl5vSXX2E_LwtxndId2o6ZDCZFM-e3M72yhMsWXaLcy2B6xnknxOfOcDW6PrTI
TkVI7IxyGRudO_GcnjYygn2zPkiDW3-OVE0R9JKBRj6McavhKseNGoMjsHSH2w7qHFJPig5ISroK
Qjn_fJNyDx3420G8dBIyq9U4gJ4gdbdgDxT8-iPC3r4q4ZKbCC9t2uT7xzbOopQZO78TBZW0OSkv
ltXLG5dtZS0oRDKci3E99f14dJFQQ44jpTR83erVDaEf5nVPw0HptGF8MajXWM8g04pKdvevNAK3
Qw69sUezopTMSs2AKHaPHLOEkfpg0MWHoGQI9FPhtSsrtaD-Aq1fL7bTojY3tz18XpkyePv8NJYF
tIXPJr4oaFQTnYnGH5w1-I/https%3A%2F%2Fforums.theregister.com%2Fpost%2F637087

I found a SHARE presentation and some academic Web site.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals
of computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating
on software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with
other editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Charles Mills]

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/18042 Scroll down to Disk and Drum
Storage

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjf
_Pin6fXzAhWNGTQIHTPrAOwQFnoECB8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshare.confex.com%2Fshar
e%2F117%2Fwebprogram%2FHandout%2FSession9958%2FSystem%2520z%2520and%2520Stor
age%2520Synergy.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2KmABJiWzrp608VTXQBkex watch the wrap,
obviously

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 8:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I get a bunch of hits on discussions, which wiki wouldn't consider reliable.
Could you provide URLs for the SHARE and academic references? Thanks.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Charles Mills 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 6:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I Googled 2321 noodle picker and got a bunch of hits.

I just started to paste them here but they are Google links as long as your
arm. Just Google <2321 noodle picker>. Also .

Here it is in a "printed newspaper":
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1IV9S5J8m0txW4qG18jH6pVkspIk-15BI5QOyjvmSLLzKpG
Oi_xD8Eh70aeqiWl5vSXX2E_LwtxndId2o6ZDCZFM-e3M72yhMsWXaLcy2B6xnknxOfOcDW6PrTI
TkVI7IxyGRudO_GcnjYygn2zPkiDW3-OVE0R9JKBRj6McavhKseNGoMjsHSH2w7qHFJPig5ISroK
Qjn_fJNyDx3420G8dBIyq9U4gJ4gdbdgDxT8-iPC3r4q4ZKbCC9t2uT7xzbOopQZO78TBZW0OSkv
ltXLG5dtZS0oRDKci3E99f14dJFQQ44jpTR83erVDaEf5nVPw0HptGF8MajXWM8g04pKdvevNAK3
Qw69sUezopTMSs2AKHaPHLOEkfpg0MWHoGQI9FPhtSsrtaD-Aq1fL7bTojY3tz18XpkyePv8NJYF
tIXPJr4oaFQTnYnGH5w1-I/https%3A%2F%2Fforums.theregister.com%2Fpost%2F637087

I found a SHARE presentation and some academic Web site.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals
of computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating
on software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with
other editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Clark Morris]

I also heard the term noodle stuffer at SHARE.

Clark Morris




On Sunday 31/10/2021 at 12:33 am, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
I never met anybody who talked about the 2321 and didn't use the 
terms.



From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on 
behalf of Bill Ogden 

Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?



From:Seymour J Metz 
Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?




One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle 
picker"

from [[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation >"Really remove
unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage 
that

I can cite?

I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a 
commonly

used slang term at the time.

(This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and 
used a
noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if 
possible,

keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

Bill Ogden


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

I get a bunch of hits on discussions, which wiki wouldn't consider reliable. 
Could you provide URLs for the SHARE and academic references? Thanks.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Charles Mills 
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 6:21 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

I Googled 2321 noodle picker and got a bunch of hits.

I just started to paste them here but they are Google links as long as your
arm. Just Google <2321 noodle picker>. Also .

Here it is in a "printed newspaper":
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1IV9S5J8m0txW4qG18jH6pVkspIk-15BI5QOyjvmSLLzKpGOi_xD8Eh70aeqiWl5vSXX2E_LwtxndId2o6ZDCZFM-e3M72yhMsWXaLcy2B6xnknxOfOcDW6PrTITkVI7IxyGRudO_GcnjYygn2zPkiDW3-OVE0R9JKBRj6McavhKseNGoMjsHSH2w7qHFJPig5ISroKQjn_fJNyDx3420G8dBIyq9U4gJ4gdbdgDxT8-iPC3r4q4ZKbCC9t2uT7xzbOopQZO78TBZW0OSkvltXLG5dtZS0oRDKci3E99f14dJFQQ44jpTR83erVDaEf5nVPw0HptGF8MajXWM8g04pKdvevNAK3Qw69sUezopTMSs2AKHaPHLOEkfpg0MWHoGQI9FPhtSsrtaD-Aq1fL7bTojY3tz18XpkyePv8NJYFtIXPJr4oaFQTnYnGH5w1-I/https%3A%2F%2Fforums.theregister.com%2Fpost%2F637087

I found a SHARE presentation and some academic Web site.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals
of computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating
on software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with
other editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

I never met anybody who talked about the 2321 and didn't use the terms.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bill Ogden 
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>From:Seymour J Metz 
>Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker"
from [[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation >"Really remove
unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that
I can cite?

I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly
used slang term at the time.

(This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a
noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible,
keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

Bill Ogden


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

Ob3850 At least the 2321 didn't drop cells on the floor.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 2:48 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Are we doing war stories?

We had one for the client database at Blue Cross in Oakland. ISAM index on
2314; data on 2321.

I noticed that the DOS/360 access method was not capable of driving it at
its hardware-spec speed. I re-wrote the access method and succeeded at
driving it at its rated speed. The 2321 crimped noodles faster than the CE
could replace them. Literally. Suddenly it all became clear, and we went
back to the IBM access logic.

Then there was the time the air conditioning guys worked on the ducts over
the 2321, and got a whole bunch of little metal shards into the drive. Did
not go well.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Bill Ogden
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 8:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>From:    Seymour J Metz 
>Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker"
from [[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation >"Really remove
unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that
I can cite?

I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly
used slang term at the time.

(This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a
noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible,
keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Charles Mills]

Are we doing war stories?

We had one for the client database at Blue Cross in Oakland. ISAM index on
2314; data on 2321.

I noticed that the DOS/360 access method was not capable of driving it at
its hardware-spec speed. I re-wrote the access method and succeeded at
driving it at its rated speed. The 2321 crimped noodles faster than the CE
could replace them. Literally. Suddenly it all became clear, and we went
back to the IBM access logic.

Then there was the time the air conditioning guys worked on the ducts over
the 2321, and got a whole bunch of little metal shards into the drive. Did
not go well.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Bill Ogden
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2021 8:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>From:Seymour J Metz 
>Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" 
from [[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation >"Really remove 
unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that 
I can cite?

I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly 
used slang term at the time. 

(This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a 
noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible, 
keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

--
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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Colin Paice]

For those like me who do not know what a noodle picker was..  wikipedia
 has  the following (and
a photo)

The *IBM 2321 Data Cell* announced in April 1964 (withdrawn January 1975)
is a discontinued direct access storage device
 (DASD) for the
IBM  System/360
. It holds up to 400 megabytes
 of data, with an access time of 95
milliseconds to 600 milliseconds, depending on the addressed strip position
and data arrangement in each data cell.[1]


The 2321 was whimsically known as the "noodle picker" since the removable
magnetic strips were flexible and resembled lasagna
 noodles.[2]



I thought it referred to people eating their noodles over it, and dropping
bits in... like biscuits in a laptop.


On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 at 17:43, William Donzelli  wrote:

> > I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly
> > used slang term at the time.
> >
> > (This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a
> > noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible,
> > keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )
>
> I bet with enough digging, one could find the official IBM memo that
> banned the term.
>
> --
> Will
>
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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[William Donzelli]

> I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly
> used slang term at the time.
>
> (This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a
> noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible,
> keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

I bet with enough digging, one could find the official IBM memo that
banned the term.

--
Will

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Bill Ogden]

>From:Seymour J Metz 
>Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

>One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" 
from [[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation >"Really remove 
unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that 
I can cite?

I doubt there is an "official"source for this term, but it was a commonly 
used slang term at the time. 

(This comment is from an old old timer who actually programmed and used a 
noodle picker a long time ago. One thing we learned early: if possible, 
keep datasets open and avoid the need to access a VTOC often. )

Bill Ogden


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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Charles Mills]

I Googled 2321 noodle picker and got a bunch of hits.

I just started to paste them here but they are Google links as long as your
arm. Just Google <2321 noodle picker>. Also .

Here it is in a "printed newspaper":
https://forums.theregister.com/post/637087 

I found a SHARE presentation and some academic Web site.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 2:53 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals
of computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating
on software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with
other editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

Wiki has some strange rules, and they prefer secondary sources. To me that 
sound like a way for errors to creep in, but those are the rules. Anything 
printed in a trade journal should work. Could there be something in annals of 
computing?

In general, I've found wiki to be a hostile working environment, due to the 
lack of an effective dispute resolution mechanism,  and I am concentrating on 
software-related articles, where I haven't run into as many issues with other 
editors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Grant Taylor <023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2021 4:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
> You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them,
> and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the
> 2321 a "noodle picker?'

Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?

I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as
a colloquialism.

There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Grant Taylor]

On 10/29/21 2:27 PM, Doug wrote:
You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them, 
and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the 
2321 a "noodle picker?'


Is there any chance that an interview / statement from one or more 
people with first hand experience during the 2321's heyday would count?


I don't think there is any reliable source for calling a modem 
connection sequence "sounds like a duck choking on a kazoo" either.  Yet 
I know many people that have used that expression.  Maybe describe it as 
a colloquialism.


There are many things in history that people are not proud of.  But the 
dislike thereof doesn't mean that they didn't happen.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Doug]

You mean besides the act that we lived through that time, I fixed them, 
and everyone I knew that had any knowledge of them at all called the 
2321 a "noodle picker?'


Sorry, no.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Seymour J Metz" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 29-Oct-21 15:45:37
Subject: Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?


One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" from [[IBM 2321 
Data Cell]] with the explanation "Really remove unreferenced OR". Does anybody have a 
reliaible source for this usage that I can cite?



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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Reliable source for slang term "noodle picker"?

[Seymour J Metz]

One of the wiki editors has removed mention of the term "noodle picker" from 
[[IBM 2321 Data Cell]] with the explanation "Really remove unreferenced OR". 
Does anybody have a reliaible source for this usage that I can cite?



--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

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