Re: z/OS users
> On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 09:41:03 AM PDT, Tony Harminc > wrote: >> Bruce Hewson wrote: >>fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined. Is that a big enough >>number? > Until not too many years ago one of the large Canadian banks used > software from my then employer to manage logons for web banking. RACF performance is monitored by performance sysprog. Beating a RACF database to death is a common problem for businesses with hundreds of thousands of users. Having a secondary logon program that equates to 1 RACF user is seems to be the most common solution. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 11:12, Phil Smith III wrote: > > Bruce Hewson wrote: > >fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined. Is that a big enough > >number? > > Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, and how > many represent real users who access using something else? > > I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's useful info > to have to say "This is how much the platform still matters". Until not too many years ago one of the large Canadian banks used software from my then employer to manage logons for web banking. Every one of their online banking and investment users was assigned a userid in the security system. Given the banking landscape in Canada (basically five large banks with 80% of the market, and many smaller players with the other 20%), the population (let's say ~30M at the time), and assuming even half the population has a bank account distributed evenly across the players, we come up with *at least* a million users per bank, and probably many more. (I believe this bank assigned a userid to every customer, even though of course some would continue to use paper cheques and visit their branch and never actually log on.) Each of these users actively logged on to web banking would have a session on z/OS, an ACEE and associated in-storage data built, and so on for the duration of their session. Of course these users weren't logging on to TSO or any similar high resource subsystem, and they weren't using 3270s. But neither were they just sending individual transactions through to be authenticated - they actually had a session for the duration of their web logon. On a busy day we would process over 1.5M logons. This bank eventually moved to some other system - either a front end to z/OS or a completely off-platform solution - that I know nothing about. But it was certainly possible to have that magnitude of users in the security system, and whatever number of active sessions one can infer from that. (Sorry for the wishy-washy wording above. I know better numbers and details, but while it's some years ago I still don't want to identify the bank unambiguously.) Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
On 8/15/23 10:12 AM, Phil Smith III wrote: Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, and how many represent real users who access using something else? +1 I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's useful info to have to say "This is how much the platform still matters". I too find the rough numbers interesting to hear / learn about. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Bruce Hewson wrote: >fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined. Is that a big enough >number? Wow! It sure is. How many of those represent real users who log on, and how many represent real users who access using something else? I'm really not going much of anywhere with this, but I think it's useful info to have to say "This is how much the platform still matters". -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
ref: Phil Smith III fyi - a quick check shows approx 200K users defined. Is that a big enough number? Regards Bruce -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Bank tellers do log on when they start work. Most of these scenarios require a unique ID and if they hand over for breaks, they log off and a relief teller will log on with a different ID. There is generally a "supervisor" override. It used to be a physical key they inserted and the teller software would detect this and elevate a privilege, such as writing out a bank cheque (counter cheque or check for you Yanks). Similar things exist at supermarket checkouts and we would all have had the supervisor come over if you didn't place your item in the bagging area. As for the sysprog/application programmer discus. In the 1970s when I joined the game, sysprog was either a clerical task or a very intense assembler programming task. It could be either, however, IBM had the gurus and the customer followed their best advice. On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 2:06 AM Jon Perryman wrote: > > On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 07:14:36 AM PDT, Phil Smith III < > li...@akphs.com> wrote: > > How many users do sites typically have these days? > > In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users > > z/OS is a server and as such, user counts are often irrelevant. TSO, IMS, > Unix and CICS can have associated userids which is 1 person affect by 1 > userid. On the other hand, credit card transaction exceed 100M per day but > it's not 100M people affected because people often use their credit card > multiple times in a day. You will never know how many users of DB2 are > affected when SAP is responsible for managing users. Unless you know every > aspect of your z/OS, you can't say how many people (not users) are affected. > > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Wayne V. Bickerdike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users - State Farm
For a long time, every State Farm office had an 'unattended VSE' system running on a PC370/PC390. They were pulled out late '80s / early '90s. I remember when the number of installed VSE sites took a nose-dive due to these removals. There was a lot of 'neat' things removed from VSE afterwards. Tony Thigpen Bob Bridges wrote on 8/14/23 2:24 PM: I had an abbreviated contract at State Farm in [checks his records] the spring of 2006; they hired me as a RACF analyst, so I was all TSO there. No idea about other platforms. I just remember boggling at them having more than a hundred LPARs and I forget how many hard-drive units. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 13:45 State Farm is one of the biggest install bases that I'm aware of. But I question how many (emulated) terminals were actually connected to the mainframe. I know that in the late '80s / early '90s State Farm had dumb terminals on many people's desks. But there were also a lot of PCs running terminal emulation. What I don't know is how many of those terminals were logged into the mainframe vs an AS/400. I have a family member who was my visibility into the State Farm Regional Offices in the '80s and '90s before becoming an agent in the late '90s / early '00s. I know for a fact that in their office as an agent that their dumb terminals and terminal emulators were connected to the in office AS/400 and that they could do much of, if not all of, the day to day things on the AS/400 even if the WAN connection to the mainframe in the R.O. was disconnected. They would run into problems if the link to the R.O. was down overnight as part of batched operations. But day to day things worked perfectly fine disconnected from the R.O. I would consider these users to be logged into the local AS/400 and /not/ logged into the mainframe. Similarly, it's my understanding that State Farm has rows of AS/400s in the R.O. that were used to front end the terminals in the R.O. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Matt Hogstrom wrote: >I guess it all comes down to what is the OP trying to determine and >the use of "Users" is ambiguous if you're really counting people >impacted. A fair question. It's nothing very specific-more just a sense of "How many people CAN/DO log onto TSO in your shop these days?" It would admittedly be a lot more interesting with historical numbers available. A decline also is not, as others have noted, significant in terms of the importance of z/OS to a given shop. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
> On Monday, August 14, 2023 at 07:14:36 AM PDT, Phil Smith III > wrote: > How many users do sites typically have these days? > In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users z/OS is a server and as such, user counts are often irrelevant. TSO, IMS, Unix and CICS can have associated userids which is 1 person affect by 1 userid. On the other hand, credit card transaction exceed 100M per day but it's not 100M people affected because people often use their credit card multiple times in a day. You will never know how many users of DB2 are affected when SAP is responsible for managing users. Unless you know every aspect of your z/OS, you can't say how many people (not users) are affected. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Never thought about any of that. Since COVID this client has a lot more remote workers (as a contract worker I've been remote for the last decade and a bit more); does that imply anything? Probably not; Backhoe Bob would mess something up on the grounds of the HQ itself, and if he brought the mainframe down it would affect everyone whether or not they're on-site. Anyway, it hasn't happened since they hired me in 2019. Active vs idle: There are certainly folks who spend most of their time on the mainframe, right? The IT people of course: developers, sysprogs, operations, the security admins. But in an insurance company I would think the adjustors and many of the financial folks would spend lots of time on the mainframe too. And there are special agencies that are actually run by in-house folks to support the independents, answering questions and addressing problems; they probably stay pretty busy. But about the actual agents out there I know less. They do connect to the mainframe using individual IDs, but what they see is a GUI front end that hits up CICS for the information it presents to them in a friendlier format; that implies to me that all the mainframe sees is a half-second interaction for each inquiry, and I'll bet an agent spends most of his time on the phone and only a few minutes at a time looking things up. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong. -Arthur C Clarke's 1st law. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 13:45 If you can, please elaborate if those users can function for most of their job if the mainframe is inaccessible due to Backhoe Bob chewing on WAN connections again? Do you have any idea how many of those are /active/ vs /idle/ logged in users? --- On 8/14/23 9:55 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: > Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house > there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an > average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 > independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to > the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with > their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. > I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure > I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, > maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Reasonable. As a security geek, I tend to think of "users" as anyone who has an ID on the mainframe. If a back end pulls information on its own authority, then thousands of users can use it and it's still just one (high-volume) ID. But if, as sometimes happens, the back-end app logs each user on to the mainframe under the user's own ID, I tend to count them even though they're probably unaware of the process. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Everything comes to him who hustles while he waits. -Thomas A Edison */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 13:45 I count people that spend any amount of time interacting with the system directly, be it a TSO READY prompt, or ISPF, or something with VM, et al. But I don't count things that connect to a front end that make back end calls to the mainframe as being logged into the mainframe. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users - State Farm
I had an abbreviated contract at State Farm in [checks his records] the spring of 2006; they hired me as a RACF analyst, so I was all TSO there. No idea about other platforms. I just remember boggling at them having more than a hundred LPARs and I forget how many hard-drive units. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 13:45 State Farm is one of the biggest install bases that I'm aware of. But I question how many (emulated) terminals were actually connected to the mainframe. I know that in the late '80s / early '90s State Farm had dumb terminals on many people's desks. But there were also a lot of PCs running terminal emulation. What I don't know is how many of those terminals were logged into the mainframe vs an AS/400. I have a family member who was my visibility into the State Farm Regional Offices in the '80s and '90s before becoming an agent in the late '90s / early '00s. I know for a fact that in their office as an agent that their dumb terminals and terminal emulators were connected to the in office AS/400 and that they could do much of, if not all of, the day to day things on the AS/400 even if the WAN connection to the mainframe in the R.O. was disconnected. They would run into problems if the link to the R.O. was down overnight as part of batched operations. But day to day things worked perfectly fine disconnected from the R.O. I would consider these users to be logged into the local AS/400 and /not/ logged into the mainframe. Similarly, it's my understanding that State Farm has rows of AS/400s in the R.O. that were used to front end the terminals in the R.O. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
On 8/14/23 9:55 AM, Bob Bridges wrote: If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked for. State Farm is one of the biggest install bases that I'm aware of. But I question how many (emulated) terminals were actually connected to the mainframe. I know that in the late '80s / early '90s State Farm had dumb terminals on many people's desks. But there were also a lot of PCs running terminal emulation. What I don't know is how many of those terminals were logged into the mainframe vs an AS/400. I have a family member who was my visibility into the State Farm Regional Offices in the '80s and '90s before becoming an agent in the late '90s / early '00s. I know for a fact that in their office as an agent that their dumb terminals and terminal emulators were connected to the in office AS/400 and that they could do much of, if not all of, the day to day things on the AS/400 even if the WAN connection to the mainframe in the R.O. was disconnected. They would run into problems if the link to the R.O. was down overnight as part of batched operations. But day to day things worked perfectly fine disconnected from the R.O. I would consider these users to be logged into the local AS/400 and /not/ logged into the mainframe. Similarly, it's my understanding that State Farm has rows of AS/400s in the R.O. that were used to front end the terminals in the R.O. I count people that spend any amount of time interacting with the system directly, be it a TSO READY prompt, or ISPF, or something with VM, et al. But I don't count things that connect to a front end that make back end calls to the mainframe as being logged into the mainframe. Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. If you can, please elaborate if those users can function for most of their job if the mainframe is inaccessible do to Backhoe Bob chewing on WAN connections again? I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. Do you have any idea how many of those are /active/ vs /idle/ logged in users? But we've also been talking about banks and their ATMs. Do we count ATM customers in the number for Bank of America, with their branches around the country? That could run to thousands at one time, don't you think? As alluded to above, the ATM patrons aren't /mainframe/ users themselves. Rather the ATM /may/ be a mainframe user. But I've seen ATMs for banks that have absolutely nothing to do with a mainframe. IMHO ATM != mainframe. Sure, it suggests, but it doesn't guarantee. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
I can find out, if I remember to ask: Two of my sons have worked as tellers. Neither of them happen to be at hand just now, but maybe soon I'll think to ask one of them. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If there is anything dumber than giving a cigarette to a gorilla, it must be trying to take one away from him. -Michael H Milts on a man who lost four fingers at the zoo, from "Only a Gringo Would Die for an Anteater" */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 12:56 No clue. I never worked as a teller either and don’t know anyone who did. I suspect bank service reps (the ones who open or close your accounts or deal with other account issues) probably do logon, along with their managers, but I am also ignorant of the daily operation of those jobs. I do seem to remember 3278-class “green screen” terminals at one of the retail banks I regularly dealt with as a customer, but that was three or more decades ago. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 12:01 PM Fair enough. And what about the tellers? I ask in simple ignorance, never having been one myself; do they log on to a mainframe ID at the beginning of their shift? -Original Message- From: Farley, Peter Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 11:19 ATM's (and other IOT's like cash register subsystems, etc.) aren't "logged on" per se, AFAIK. I believe that those are transactional accesses, one to check user PIN/Password/authorization of the card, another for each money withdrawal/deposit/transfer/etc. I don't believe they are actively accessing the mainframe the whole time you are using them, only when you perform an action and then only for that one transaction. I think you wouldn't count those as "logged on", as opposed to the human insurance agents who may well be actively logged on from their office researching plans for a client or even possibly from a mobile device at a claim investigation site. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
No clue. I never worked as a teller either and don’t know anyone who did. I suspect bank service reps (the ones who open or close your accounts or deal with other account issues) probably do logon, along with their managers, but I am also ignorant of the daily operation of those jobs. I do seem to remember 3278-class “green screen” terminals at one of the retail banks I regularly dealt with as a customer, but that was three or more decades ago. Peter From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 12:01 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS users Fair enough. And what about the tellers? I ask in simple ignorance, never having been one myself; do they log on to a mainframe ID at the beginning of their shift? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations - forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Farley, Peter Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 11:19 ATM's (and other IOT's like cash register subsystems, etc.) aren't "logged on" per se, AFAIK. I believe that those are transactional accesses, one to check user PIN/Password/authorization of the card, another for each money withdrawal/deposit/transfer/etc. I don't believe they are actively accessing the mainframe the whole time you are using them, only when you perform an action and then only for that one transaction. I think you wouldn't count those as "logged on", as opposed to the human insurance agents who may well be actively logged on from their office researching plans for a client or even possibly from a mobile device at a claim investigation site. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:55 AM If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked for. Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. But we've also been talking about banks and their ATMs. Do we count ATM customers in the number for Bank of America, with their branches around the country? That could run to thousands at one time, don't you think? -Original Message- From: Phil Smith III Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:14 In another thread, Jon Perryman wrote, in part: >[You're] on a multi-million dollar computer shared by thousands. Pure curiosity here: Without getting into any theology about futures, or that obviously a single, relatively small app or even database could be used in some sense by thousands of users via the network: How many users do sites typically have these days? In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users (on four 4341s running Adesse Single-System Image), which was considered well beyond the pale by most. We had several thousand logged on at once. Now, that was VM (VM/SP, to be precise). How many users does your z/OS shop have defined, and what's your daily high-water mark of logons? We're a tiny dev shop, so have a grand total of about four humans who touch z/OS using keyboards, and one of them only does USS stuff. That's presumably not typical; I mention it just in the spirit of -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive acces
Re: z/OS users
I guess it all comes down to what is the OP trying to determine and the use of “Users” is ambiguous if you’re really counting people impacted. Matt Hogstrom “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive." — Hogstrom > On Aug 14, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Farley, Peter > <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > I think you wouldn't count those as "logged on", as opposed to the human > insurance agents who may well be actively logged on from their office > researching plans for a client or even possibly from a mobile device at a > claim investigation site. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
Fair enough. And what about the tellers? I ask in simple ignorance, never having been one myself; do they log on to a mainframe ID at the beginning of their shift? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations - forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 11:19 ATM's (and other IOT's like cash register subsystems, etc.) aren't "logged on" per se, AFAIK. I believe that those are transactional accesses, one to check user PIN/Password/authorization of the card, another for each money withdrawal/deposit/transfer/etc. I don't believe they are actively accessing the mainframe the whole time you are using them, only when you perform an action and then only for that one transaction. I think you wouldn't count those as "logged on", as opposed to the human insurance agents who may well be actively logged on from their office researching plans for a client or even possibly from a mobile device at a claim investigation site. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:55 AM If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked for. Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. But we've also been talking about banks and their ATMs. Do we count ATM customers in the number for Bank of America, with their branches around the country? That could run to thousands at one time, don't you think? -Original Message- From: Phil Smith III Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:14 In another thread, Jon Perryman wrote, in part: >[You're] on a multi-million dollar computer shared by thousands. Pure curiosity here: Without getting into any theology about futures, or that obviously a single, relatively small app or even database could be used in some sense by thousands of users via the network: How many users do sites typically have these days? In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users (on four 4341s running Adesse Single-System Image), which was considered well beyond the pale by most. We had several thousand logged on at once. Now, that was VM (VM/SP, to be precise). How many users does your z/OS shop have defined, and what's your daily high-water mark of logons? We're a tiny dev shop, so have a grand total of about four humans who touch z/OS using keyboards, and one of them only does USS stuff. That's presumably not typical; I mention it just in the spirit of -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
ATM's (and other IOT's like cash register subsystems, etc.) aren't "logged on" per se, AFAIK. I believe that those are transactional accesses, one to check user PIN/Password/authorization of the card, another for each money withdrawal/deposit/transfer/etc. I don't believe they are actively accessing the mainframe the whole time you are using them, only when you perform an action and then only for that one transaction. I think you wouldn't count those as "logged on", as opposed to the human insurance agents who may well be actively logged on from their office researching plans for a client or even possibly from a mobile device at a claim investigation site. Peter From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:55 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS users If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart This Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside your organization. ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked for. Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. But we've also been talking about banks and their ATMs. Do we count ATM customers in the number for Bank of America, with their branches around the country? That could run to thousands at one time, don't you think? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com<mailto:robhbrid...@gmail.com>, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is often stated that of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. In fact, some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct. -from "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:14 In another thread, Jon Perryman wrote, in part: >[You're] on a multi-million dollar computer shared by thousands. Pure curiosity here: Without getting into any theology about futures, or that obviously a single, relatively small app or even database could be used in some sense by thousands of users via the network: How many users do sites typically have these days? In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users (on four 4341s running Adesse Single-System Image), which was considered well beyond the pale by most. We had several thousand logged on at once. Now, that was VM (VM/SP, to be precise). How many users does your z/OS shop have defined, and what's your daily high-water mark of logons? We're a tiny dev shop, so have a grand total of about four humans who touch z/OS using keyboards, and one of them only does USS stuff. That's presumably not typical; I mention it just in the spirit of fair play. Again, this is purely curiosity-I am not contending that it proves anything (except what we already know, which is that thanks to networking, there are a lot of users and uses that show no visible signs of touching the mainframe, yet are 100% dependent on it). -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS users
If we're limiting the count to on-line in-house users - I'm talking about TSO, CICS etc - I suspect State Farm might have a thousand users logged on at a time (that's a massive system) but a few hundred is more usual in the companies I've worked for. Currently I have an insurance company as my main client; in-house there are about 220 managers who review access, with let's guess an average of five mainframe reports each. They also have about 400 independent agents that use a system that ultimately connects them to the mainframe, and each of those may have one or two assistants with their own IDs. That's probably typical for an insurance company. I couldn't guess about how many might be logged on at once. Oh, sure I could, but it's just a guess: If there are 2000 mainframe IDs, maybe 500 at a time? Purest guess. But we've also been talking about banks and their ATMs. Do we count ATM customers in the number for Bank of America, with their branches around the country? That could run to thousands at one time, don't you think? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is often stated that of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. In fact, some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct. -from "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Phil Smith III Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 10:14 In another thread, Jon Perryman wrote, in part: >[You're] on a multi-million dollar computer shared by thousands. Pure curiosity here: Without getting into any theology about futures, or that obviously a single, relatively small app or even database could be used in some sense by thousands of users via the network: How many users do sites typically have these days? In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users (on four 4341s running Adesse Single-System Image), which was considered well beyond the pale by most. We had several thousand logged on at once. Now, that was VM (VM/SP, to be precise). How many users does your z/OS shop have defined, and what's your daily high-water mark of logons? We're a tiny dev shop, so have a grand total of about four humans who touch z/OS using keyboards, and one of them only does USS stuff. That's presumably not typical; I mention it just in the spirit of fair play. Again, this is purely curiosity-I am not contending that it proves anything (except what we already know, which is that thanks to networking, there are a lot of users and uses that show no visible signs of touching the mainframe, yet are 100% dependent on it). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
z/OS users
In another thread, Jon Perryman wrote, in part: >[You're] on a multi-million dollar computer shared by thousands. Pure curiosity here: Without getting into any theology about futures, or that obviously a single, relatively small app or even database could be used in some sense by thousands of users via the network: How many users do sites typically have these days? In 1986, University of Waterloo had over 20,000 VM users (on four 4341s running Adesse Single-System Image), which was considered well beyond the pale by most. We had several thousand logged on at once. Now, that was VM (VM/SP, to be precise). How many users does your z/OS shop have defined, and what's your daily high-water mark of logons? We're a tiny dev shop, so have a grand total of about four humans who touch z/OS using keyboards, and one of them only does USS stuff. That's presumably not typical; I mention it just in the spirit of fair play. Again, this is purely curiosity-I am not contending that it proves anything (except what we already know, which is that thanks to networking, there are a lot of users and uses that show no visible signs of touching the mainframe, yet are 100% dependent on it). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
